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[thebrute7]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

thebrute7 wrote...


Of course I disagree with Merrill.  Our experience in Dragon Age with Spirits and Dmeons seems self-explanatory for me.  We see demons of Sloth/Rage/Pride/Desire and we see/hear of Faith/Valor/Justice.  it seems clear to me that there is a distinction and an obvious one between the two.

We see "demons" of sloth/rage/pride/desire and "spirits" of faith/valor/justice because that is how they are introduced to us, with those labels attached.

It is Merrill's contention, and I suppose mine, that objectively all we've met are beings of the fade that personify concepts.  Whether those concepts are obviously self destructive, or more insidiously self-destructive isn't something I think Anders understands unless he's on the Rivalpath.

Merrill's error isn't in her estimation of the beings of the Fade, but in her own pride that she could control them and their influence.

I agree with your contention that we see them as either "spirits" or "demons" due to how they are introduced.  And that all of them are personifications of 'concepts'.  The "demons" are clearly self-destructive, and the spirits "insidiously" so.

I was under the understanding however that the geratest difference between a spirit and demon is the demon's desire to possess what the "living" have.  Life in the physical world.  Justice was forced into our world, but he did not desire to possess a living host involuntarily to gain life in this world.  The idea of possessing a willing host was given by Nathaniel.  So perhaps the spirits and demons and what happens with Anders is in fact to show us that the line is blurred a little?

I still think that there is an objective difference, but perhaps we can agree to disagree? I do so enjoy meaningful discussion
EDIT: ToP again I see

Modifié par thebrute7, 19 avril 2011 - 09:07 .

[kromify]

GailRana wrote...

Threeparts wrote...

I find it interesting, because the Circles teach mages to become spirit healers, even though it makes the templars nervous. Anders and Merrill have obviously been raised to look at the Fade beings differently, and his education has apparently taught Anders that some spirits can be trusted and can be used for good when a mage works alongside them. The Circles teach that there is a clear line between demons and spirits, whereas Merrill was taught by the Keeper that, regardless of the qualities that they embody, spirits can't be trusted.
It's a pity Anders didn't receive Dalish training, but it is understandable that he would believe there is a difference between the two, even if he's sometimes blind to what Justice has become.

that is really interesting insight, and explains their actions somewhat

but if anders was another blonde elf... no.

[upsettingshorts]

ipdg, you missed the point I was making entirely.

The point is that a war can be judged before it starts. The Iraq War was posed as an example of a war that was easily and frequently judged before it started.

The reason the comparison works isn't because the two conflicts are similar, they aren't. The reason making that distinction is important is because the very discussion is about Anders' justification and his justification only. Discussions about the outcome are relevant to a broader, less focused discussion, but I'm not trying to have one of those. The example demonstrates that you don't need to have one at all in order to examine a cause for going to war on the case presented alone.

[kromify]

thebrute7 wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

thebrute7 wrote...


Of course I disagree with Merrill.  Our experience in Dragon Age with Spirits and Dmeons seems self-explanatory for me.  We see demons of Sloth/Rage/Pride/Desire and we see/hear of Faith/Valor/Justice.  it seems clear to me that there is a distinction and an obvious one between the two.

We see "demons" of sloth/rage/pride/desire and "spirits" of faith/valor/justice because that is how they are introduced to us, with those labels attached.

It is Merrill's contention, and I suppose mine, that objectively all we've met are beings of the fade that personify concepts.  Whether those concepts are obviously self destructive, or more insidiously self-destructive isn't something I think Anders understands unless he's on the Rivalpath.

Merrill's error isn't in her estimation of the beings of the Fade, but in her own pride that she could control them and their influence.

I agree with your contention that we see them as either "spirits" or "demons" due to how they are introduced.  And that all of them are personifications of 'concepts'.  The "demons" are clearly self-destructive, and the spirits "insidiously" so.

I was under the understanding however that the geratest difference between a spirit and demon is the demon's desire to possess what the "living" have.  Life in the physical world.  Justice was forced into our world, but he did not desire to possess a living host involuntarily to gain life in this world.  The idea of possessing a willing host was given by Nathaniel.  So perhaps the spirits and demons and what happens with Anders is in fact to show us that the line is blurred a little?

I still think that there is an objective difference, but perhaps we can agree to disagree? I do so enjoy meaningful discussion

i just think it means he wasn't a demon to begin with, and now he is

[Rinji the Bearded]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

ipdg, you missed the point I was making entirely.

The point is that a war can be judged before it starts. The Iraq War was posed as an example of a war that was easily and frequently judged before it started.

The reason the comparison works isn't because the two conflicts are similar, they aren't. The reason making that distinction is important is because the very discussion is about Anders' justification and his justification only. Discussions about the outcome are relevant to a broader, less focused discussion, but I'm not trying to have one of those. The example demonstrates that you don't need to have one at all in order to examine a cause for going to war on the case presented alone.

This is also assuming that everyone agrees that starting Iraq War was not justified.. which they don't, whether we like it or not.  We can throw logic at that all we want, we're still going to get differing opinions.

IDK work's almost over and I need caffeine.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 19 avril 2011 - 09:10 .

[upsettingshorts]

kromify wrote...

i just think it means he wasn't a demon to begin with, and now he is

I could agree to the compromise notion that once a spirit of the fade possesses a mortal, they become a demon.

The more obviously self destructive spirits end up doing this more frequently.

RinjiRenee wrote...

This is also assuming that everyone agrees that starting Iraq War was not justified.. which they don't, whether we like it or not.  We can throw logic at that all we want, we're still going to get differing opinions.

It makes no such assumption.  It simply illustrates that pre-war discussion about the jus ad bellum case is perfectly valid even when the outcome of the conflict is unclear.

This is why I hate using contemporary examples.  Everyone missing the forest for the trees.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 19 avril 2011 - 09:11 .

[GailRana]

kromify wrote...

i just think it means he wasn't a demon to begin with, and now he is

^^^ i'm with this guy. he seems smart

[kromify]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

kromify wrote...

i just think it means he wasn't a demon to begin with, and now he is

I could agree to the compromise that once a spirit of the fade possesses a mortal, they become a demon.

The more obviously self destructive spirits end up doing this more frequently.

they were doing this deliberately. 
justice persuaded anders to let him in. that's when he technically became a demon imo

[Trophonius]

thebrute7 wrote...

Trophonius wrote...

thebrute7 wrote...

Fixed.

Justice was nver a demon.  Vengeance on the other hand is a demon.  A spirit warped by his desires, or more specifically Anders' desires and hatred.

Justice isn't blameless. If Anders corrupted him into becoming Vengeance, then he's just as a guilty for allowing it to happen. This is the guy who encouraged Anders to give a damn about the plight of mages after all.

I never said Justice was blameless.  At least i don't think I did.  I simply said he was not a demon.  I agree that he is equally guilty, as is Anders, of causing what happened.  But that doesn't make him a demon.  it makes him a Spirit who was trying to do the right thing and things went terribly wrong.

I was referring to your statement of Justice being a spirit warped by Anders' desires. He might've been a mainly benevolent spirit in the past, but now that Justice and Vengeance are essentially the same entity, he's become a demon.

[GailRana]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I could agree to the compromise notion that once a spirit of the fade possesses a mortal, they become a demon.

The more obviously self destructive spirits end up doing this more frequently.

doesn't hold water because of Wynne. She hasn't gone al demony... yet
 

[upsettingshorts]

GailRana wrote...

doesn't hold water because of Wynne. She hasn't gone al demony... yet 

What was the nature of the spirit she became associated with?  I forget.  Like, what concept was it?

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 19 avril 2011 - 09:13 .

[Rinji the Bearded]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

This is also assuming that everyone agrees that starting Iraq War was not justified.. which they don't, whether we like it or not.  We can throw logic at that all we want, we're still going to get differing opinions.

It makes no such assumption.  It simply illustrates that pre-war discussion about the jus ad bellum case is perfectly valid even when the outcome of the conflict is unclear.

This is why I hate using contemporary examples.  Everyone missing the forest for the trees.

That's why I don't like using them either, lol.

[kromify]

GailRana wrote...

kromify wrote...

i just think it means he wasn't a demon to begin with, and now he is

^^^ i'm with this guy. he seems smart

she, thankyou

[Rinji the Bearded]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

GailRana wrote...

doesn't hold water because of Wynne. She hasn't gone al demony... yet 

What was the nature of the spirit she became associated with?  I forget.  Like, what concept was it?

I think it was Faith.

[thebrute7]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

kromify wrote...

i just think it means he wasn't a demon to begin with, and now he is

I could agree to the compromise notion that once a spirit of the fade possesses a mortal, they become a demon.

The more obviously self destructive spirits end up doing this more frequently.

I think I could agree.  The spirits, being pure ideals, are corrupted by the nature of a persons conflicting emotions and desires and ideals that make up our being.

What of Faith?  Could someone clear up whether Faith actually possessed Wynne as Justice became a part of Anders?  because it doesn't seem that Faith was corrupted into a demon by Wynne, if that was indeed the case.

GailRana wrote...

doesn't hold water because of Wynne. She hasn't gone al demony... yet
 

This is only true if Faith did in fact "possess" or join with Wynne as Justice did with Anders.

Modifié par thebrute7, 19 avril 2011 - 09:16 .

[Jean]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

GailRana wrote...

doesn't hold water because of Wynne. She hasn't gone al demony... yet 

What was the nature of the spirit she became associated with?  I forget.  Like, what concept was it?

She called it Faith, I believe.

[GailRana]

kromify wrote...

they were doing this deliberately. 
justice persuaded anders to let him in. that's when he technically became a demon imo

aaaaaaand i stopped agreeing with you. And you know, i always assumed that it was Ander's idea to join up. has anything said otherwise?

Modifié par GailRana, 19 avril 2011 - 09:15 .

[leggywillow]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

What was the nature of the spirit she became associated with?  I forget.  Like, what concept was it?

Faith.

EDIT: 'd repeatedly!

Modifié par leggywillow, 19 avril 2011 - 09:15 .

[Sherbet Lemon]

thenyxie wrote...
Last night on my mostly purple(mixed with red) female mage PT, Fenris was in the party, didn't say a WORD, and the Arishok told me I was basa whatever and offered to duel me. No mention of gender. The only difference is, this is the first character that told him that she would not surrender the elves either.

So... IDK. He WILL challenge a female to dueling without mentioning their gender. I'm just not sure what the certain set of circumstances is.

This means you've managed to earn the Arishok's respect before that final confrontation.  There are certains steps you must have done to do that like being honest with him about what you've done i.e. killing Aarvarad, not hiding the bodies and then telling him what happened.  With the Arishok, it's all about being up front and honest. 

When you earn this, the "Worthy Rival" Achievement/Trophy should unlock.

EDIT:  Link to the wiki.

Modifié par Village Idiot, 19 avril 2011 - 09:17 .

[Ryzaki]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Edit 

GailRana wrote...

doesn't hold water because of Wynne. She hasn't gone al demony... yet 

What was the nature of the spirit she became associated with?  I forget.  Like, what concept was it?

Faith. 

Edit: Massively ninja'd. 

That said I believe she said something about the spirit sacrificing it's life force for her. That's not the case with Justice from what I've seen. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 19 avril 2011 - 09:16 .

[upsettingshorts]

Hmm, the Wynne thing has screwed up my interpretation. Though not entirely. Anders is still a self-righteous hypocritical abomination of Vengeance, heh.

[GailRana]

kromify wrote...

she, thankyou

My brain read that in Shale's voice

[Rinji the Bearded]

GailRana wrote...

kromify wrote...

they were doing this deliberately. 
justice persuaded anders to let him in. that's when he technically became a demon imo

aaaaaaand i stopped agreeing with you. And you know, i always assumed that it was Ander's idea to join up. has anything said otherwise?

No, actually, Justice approached him about it.  And Nate was the one in Awakening who talked about Justice taking a living host.

IT'S ALL NATE'S FAAAAULT *goes after him with torches and pitchforks*

Anders more or less agreed because 1) He thought Justice needed a host to keep on living, and 2) He was pretty fed up with the world.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 19 avril 2011 - 09:17 .

[cleosilver]

s3.amazonaws.com/data.tumblr.com/tumblr_li8hopGwnh1qz885wo1_1280.png

Found this linked on LJ.

edit. Oh I give up.I can't get this to show as an image.

Modifié par cleosilver, 19 avril 2011 - 09:27 .