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[Ryzaki]

Addai67 wrote...

yukidama wrote...
And your average non-mage is somehow smarter? They're all people and they come from the same place.

Yeah I'd say the average mage is at least more educated than the population at large.

Can't be that smart. They let the templars charge at them from a funnelled opening and didn't attack until 3 of them had been cut down. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 19 avril 2011 - 09:38 .

[leggywillow]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

GailRana wrote...

I want you to know that I was rooting for you, mate. Know that.

I'll be back with a darker, sexier, and more mature fade spirit argument in a sequel - worry not.

I hope you plan on wearing feathered pauldrons.

[nekhbet]

People who struggle with posting images: right-click on the image and at least in Chrome and FireFox (the proper browsers) you should get something like "get/copy image URL". Paste that into your post and add the image tags and you're sorted!

[ipgd]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I'll limit myself to saying I accept the distinction you're drawing, and point out that I enjoy the kind of questions Anders' actions raise most by treating them as if they were equally serious.  Hence being Mr. Serious regarding Anders, heh.

Sure, the argument can be made, I just think the fact it's fiction is a big factor in things (and not at all in the "oh it's just a video game why are you taking this seriously tee hee i'm an obnoxious ****" way) because what the writers want to do is obviously a huge variable that is absent from real-world situations. It can be fun to think about if you intend to approach it from a broader philosophical standpoint, but ultimately pointless in an actual specific case concerning the vidya, which is what I was getting at

[kromify]

RinjiRenee wrote...

kromify wrote...

GailRana wrote...

kromify wrote...

they were doing this deliberately. 
justice persuaded anders to let him in. that's when he technically became a demon imo

aaaaaaand i stopped agreeing with you. And you know, i always assumed that it was Ander's idea to join up. has anything said otherwise?

well they certainly discussed it. no record of the conversation though. that was just  my impression from somewhere, i may well be wrong.
but i don't believe anders would just ask a spirit to inhabit him. i imagine justice came up with the idea to merge with anders specifically. but that is just me imagining.

justice must have had a reason to want to do this, other than bioware made him. presumably because it's better than a rotting corpse or to gain access to anders' powers in the classic abomination way.

Because he thought the subjugation of the mages was unjust, and he recognized Anders as the go-to guy for this.   He had no other source of information besides Anders, and he resonated with Anders's feelings.   He harped on Anders so much in Awakening, I'm surprised he didn't try convincing him right then and there.

he could have stayed in kristoff's body... but then how would da2 end? meredith goes crazy, elthina hawke deals with her, the end.

[GailRana]

erilben wrote...

GailRana wrote...
oh, don't give up so quick. are we positive she's fully posessed or just has a more perminent connection to Faith?

DG says spirits meld with their hosts  (like with Wynne). They do not possess like a demon does. You can read that here along with other comments on what is a demon.

oh, thank you! we needed some Gaider literature

[upsettingshorts]

Ryzaki wrote...

Can't be that smart. The let the templars charge at them from a funnelled opening and didn't attack until 3 of them had been cut down. 

Well, non-apostate mages are forced into mandatory education centers/prisons at birth.  Mundanes aren't.  So there's that.

leggywillow wrote...

I hope you plan on wearing feathered pauldrons.

I don't know about that, but pants are definitely out.

[Sherbet Lemon]

I think the main difference between Justice and Wynne's spirit is that it is still in the Fade.  I firmly believe that spirits aren't meant to fully cross over in this world and that is in part the reason why things go so terribly.  Spirit Healer's summon "benevolent" spirits from the beyond the veil, they aren't usually present in the world already.

Furthermore, I think we have to consider the metaphysical aspects of essentially merging one's essence with another being.  I get the feeling that the spirit in Wynne's case is not fully present within her but merely watching, or lingering nearby within the Fade.  Justice and Anders have completely merged in that they are now inhabiting the same body.  Wynne must call on the spirit for aid as it does not act of its own accord.

One more thing to consider is the very nature of Justice itself.  Justice is not so benevolent.  Justice is righteous.  The phrase, "justice is blind" alludes to the fact this particular virtue tends to view the world in a binary.  It would not be able to reason away matters of ambiguity as grey matters are contrary to the very nature of embodiment.

I don't know.  Thats what I think anyways. 

EDIT: Never mind....just read what Mr. Gaider said...>.>

You guys move to fast for my slow typing...

Modifié par Village Idiot, 19 avril 2011 - 09:39 .

[Ryzaki]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
Well, non-apostate mages are forced into mandatory education centers/prisons at birth.  Mundanes aren't.  So there's that.

Yeah but my arguement never was that they weren't *smarter*.  I mean I do remember Cailan's plans.  

Though it does seem that even the elves (at least in Fereldan) are expected to know how to read. (Given the "no weapons allowed." signs and the fact that the CE treats reading as no big thing. I'm not sure about writing but I see it as likely. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 19 avril 2011 - 09:35 .

[SmilingDeceit]

Ryzaki wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

yukidama wrote...
And your average non-mage is somehow smarter? They're all people and they come from the same place.

Yeah I'd say the average mage is at least more educated than the population at large.

Can't be that smart. The let the templars charge at them from a funnelled opening and didn't attack until 3 of them had been cut down. 

By the end of the game, I was having serious doubts that there was anyone of interllectual worth in Kirkwall that wasn't Hawke.

Specially after Orsino..

[Rinji the Bearded]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

GailRana wrote...

I want you to know that I was rooting for you, mate. Know that.

I'll be back with a darker, sexier, and more mature fade spirit argument in a sequel - worry not.

erilben wrote...

DG says spirits meld with their hosts  (like with Wynne). They do not possess like a demon does. You can read that here along with other comments on what is a demon.

So the method of corruption is how they are dissimilar?

They're all spirits, we label demons as things that feed off base emotions, which I suppose Vengeance can be considered a base emotion that is corrupted from virtue.  Or perhaps we don't even know if Anders was calling him a demon because he was just doing something inherently wrong... We already know that Anders understands demons and spirits very little... but we now know that both demons AND spirits are dangerous.

[GailRana]

leggywillow wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

GailRana wrote...

I want you to know that I was rooting for you, mate. Know that.

I'll be back with a darker, sexier, and more mature fade spirit argument in a sequel - worry not.

I hope you plan on wearing feathered pauldrons.

and festooned with ribbons!

and no one got the jack sparrow quote? no one? oh well...

Modifié par GailRana, 19 avril 2011 - 09:33 .

[kromify]

ooh are we back to festooning things??? yippee! let me go fetch some tinsel!!!

[GailRana]

SmilingDeceit wrote...

By the end of the game, I was having serious doubts that there was anyone of interllectual worth in Kirkwall that wasn't Hawke or Varric.

Specially after Orsino..

fixed

[SmilingDeceit]

GailRana wrote...

SmilingDeceit wrote...

By the end of the game, I was having serious doubts that there was anyone of interllectual worth in Kirkwall that wasn't Hawke or Varric.

Specially after Orsino..

fixed

You're completely right on that. My bad! *hangs head in shame*

[Ryzaki]

GailRana wrote...

SmilingDeceit wrote...

By the end of the game, I was having serious doubts that there was anyone of interllectual worth in Kirkwall that wasn't Hawke or Varric.

Specially after Orsino..

fixed

 You have a very good point. 

[Sherbet Lemon]

@Queen-Of-Stuff - No, no, you're right! I'm wrong...I misremembered!

[GailRana]

SmilingDeceit wrote...

GailRana wrote...

SmilingDeceit wrote...

By the end of the game, I was having serious doubts that there was anyone of interllectual worth in Kirkwall that wasn't Hawke or Varric.

Specially after Orsino..

fixed

You're completely right on that. My bad! *hangs head in shame*

No shame! he's the second son. his job is to stay behind the scenes like that

[Rinji the Bearded]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

Village Idiot wrote...

I think the main difference between Justice and Wynne's spirit is that it is still in the Fade.  I firmly believe that spirits aren't meant to fully cross over in this world and that is in part the reason why things go so terribly.  Spirit Healer's summon "benevolent" spirits from the beyond the veil, they aren't usually present in the world already.

Furthermore, I think we have to consider the metaphysical aspects of essentially merging one's essence with another being.  I get the feeling that the spirit in Wynne's case is not fully present within her but merely watching, or lingering nearby within the Fade.  Justice and Anders have completely merged in that they are now inhabiting the same body.  Wynne must call on the spirit for aid as it does not act of its own accord.

One more thing to consider is the very nature of Justice itself.  Justice is not so benevolent.  Justice is righteous.  The phrase, "justice is blind" alludes to the fact this particular justice tends to view the world in binary.  It would not be able to reason away matters of ambiguity as grey matters are contrary to the very nature of embodiment.

I don't know.  Thats what I think anyways. 

I thought that Wynne's spirit actually did merge with her when she was about to die, in order to save her life. She does have an ability called "Vessel of the Spirit", after all. Am I misremembering things?

The Veil was pretty thin there at the Circle when crap went down, so I imagine it could have slipped through.  Perhaps it was attracted by Wynne's devotion to protecting the mages there and having "faith" that not everything was lost, even when the Templars were sending off for the Right of Annulment.

But Faith can be corrupted, too, without her even realizing it.

[thebrute7]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

Village Idiot wrote...

I think the main difference between Justice and Wynne's spirit is that it is still in the Fade.  I firmly believe that spirits aren't meant to fully cross over in this world and that is in part the reason why things go so terribly.  Spirit Healer's summon "benevolent" spirits from the beyond the veil, they aren't usually present in the world already.

Furthermore, I think we have to consider the metaphysical aspects of essentially merging one's essence with another being.  I get the feeling that the spirit in Wynne's case is not fully present within her but merely watching, or lingering nearby within the Fade.  Justice and Anders have completely merged in that they are now inhabiting the same body.  Wynne must call on the spirit for aid as it does not act of its own accord.

One more thing to consider is the very nature of Justice itself.  Justice is not so benevolent.  Justice is righteous.  The phrase, "justice is blind" alludes to the fact this particular justice tends to view the world in binary.  It would not be able to reason away matters of ambiguity as grey matters are contrary to the very nature of embodiment.

I don't know.  Thats what I think anyways. 

I thought that Wynne's spirit actually did merge with her when she was about to die, in order to save her life. She does have an ability called "Vessel of the Spirit", after all. Am I misremembering things?

In a thread linked earlier, DG says that there is a difference between "merging" which is what happened with Wynne and I would guess Anders, and possession, which is what normally happens with dmeons where they take over entirely, erasing the person who existed before.

That's the impression I got anyway.

[GailRana]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

I thought that Wynne's spirit actually did merge with her when she was about to die, in order to save her life. She does have an ability called "Vessel of the Spirit", after all. Am I misremembering things?

I thought it was a merge too, but then didn't she describe the spirit as "Fading" from her? That sounds more like a connection because justice certainly wasn't about to fade anywhere 

also, all this talk of possessions and merges and no one's made an innuendo? i'm almost ashamed for you guys. where's your sense of depravity!

[SmilingDeceit]

GailRana wrote...

No shame! he's the second son. his job is to stay behind the scenes like that

He wasn't the second son anymore once my Hawke was through with his personal quest in Act 2

Had to get full rivalary with Seb *somehow*

Modifié par SmilingDeceit, 19 avril 2011 - 09:41 .

[Ryzaki]

GailRana wrote...

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

I thought that Wynne's spirit actually did merge with her when she was about to die, in order to save her life. She does have an ability called "Vessel of the Spirit", after all. Am I misremembering things?

I thought it was a merge too, but then didn't she describe the spirit as "Fading" from her? That sounds more like a connection because justice certainly wasn't about to fade anywhere 

also, all this talk of possessions and merges and no one's made an innuendo? i'm almost ashamed for you guys. where's your sense of depravity!

Hm...yeah I coud've sworn she said the spirit faded a little more either every day or each time it helped her. I forget which. 

[Rinji the Bearded]

thebrute7 wrote...

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

Village Idiot wrote...

I think the main difference between Justice and Wynne's spirit is that it is still in the Fade.  I firmly believe that spirits aren't meant to fully cross over in this world and that is in part the reason why things go so terribly.  Spirit Healer's summon "benevolent" spirits from the beyond the veil, they aren't usually present in the world already.

Furthermore, I think we have to consider the metaphysical aspects of essentially merging one's essence with another being.  I get the feeling that the spirit in Wynne's case is not fully present within her but merely watching, or lingering nearby within the Fade.  Justice and Anders have completely merged in that they are now inhabiting the same body.  Wynne must call on the spirit for aid as it does not act of its own accord.

One more thing to consider is the very nature of Justice itself.  Justice is not so benevolent.  Justice is righteous.  The phrase, "justice is blind" alludes to the fact this particular justice tends to view the world in binary.  It would not be able to reason away matters of ambiguity as grey matters are contrary to the very nature of embodiment.

I don't know.  Thats what I think anyways. 

I thought that Wynne's spirit actually did merge with her when she was about to die, in order to save her life. She does have an ability called "Vessel of the Spirit", after all. Am I misremembering things?

In a thread linked earlier, DG says that there is a difference between "merging" which is what happened with Wynne and I would guess Anders, and possession, which is what normally happens with dmeons where they take over entirely, erasing the person who existed before.

That's the impression I got anyway.

Actually, what he meant was that Anders is not merely possessed by Justice, it's that he IS completely merged with him, and thus why a simple exorcism would not work in removing Justice.  Anders even confirms this as early as Act 1.  Which is why when he talked about a potion to undo it in Act 3, I was like 8| OKAY YOU LITTLE LIAR.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 19 avril 2011 - 09:43 .