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[kromify]

Phenerios wrote...

Amondra wrote...

At the beginning I think he was still in denial about what has happened, that he can still try and save it. By the end of the game he comes to realize that he is what he hates most, and it tears him up to no end. If you are referring to the Chantry thing, he even states he didn't tell you because 1) you would try to stop him or 2) you would want to help and he didn't want the blood on your hands.

That sounds more like a friend trying to protect you from their short comings. But that is my take on it, how I feel. Everyone has their opinions on the matter, no one is going to change theirs so there is no point in fighting over it. You just look like an ass for trying to "win".

I agree with the character development.  It really fell flat, considering the game spand seven years!  Most the characters barely had one side to them I.E. Fenris.

   The fact that he lied to me, is a betrayal to me. I believe one of the worsts things someone can do is lying to you about something that important. By the end of the game most of your followers see you as their leader. To so blantly lie to you leader in an attempt to undermind his plans his the very essence of betrayal. No, matter his intentions the shedding of innocent blood, and the betrayal of a friends trust makes all actions null and void of meaning.

i get the impression you're thinking of the game as high fantasy. hawke is thrown into situations and she/he muddles through as best they can so i can't see any attempt to undermine hawke's plans. (doesn't really have any). he has always been clear about his views and the other companions comment about how he wants/plans the revolution. it was no surprise. you might be the leader of the gang but that doesn't mean you own those who follow you. they have their own lives and follow you around for lulz  on the weekends.

edit for top

Modifié par kromify, 22 avril 2011 - 12:09 .

[Inzhuna]

Some badass Anders art by runaire on deviantart.

Modifié par Inzhuna, 22 avril 2011 - 12:11 .

[purplecookie]

Phenerios wrote...

Miri1984 wrote...

kromify wrote...

Miri1984 wrote...

Isabela betrays you and lies to you all through Act I and Act II as well. Do you have the same reaction to her as you do to Anders?

hmm well i do... hawke protects all her friends. she has no family left

I love Izzy and forgive her and FIGHT THE DAMN ARISHOK for her even though she's technically betrayed me. Because she's my friend. It's what friends do. Same with Anders.

And really, when it gets down to it, Isabela's actions killed a hell of a lot of people. Maybe not in the long term as many as Anders will (considering the war he's hoping to spark) but certainly more than one Chantry full. And possibly even more, considering the Arishok has promised the Qunari will return and I DON'T think he meant to exchange crocheting patterns.

  She does her best to make it right. The Arishok was going to attack Kirkwall anyways. He had made up his mind on that point no matter what. And she never lied to me, she told the truth, but in a way that it wasn't very clear. Now, see I have yet to flame anyones opnion or bad mouth anyone. I am just adding to a discussion on a forum, in a thread that had no one stating the otherside of the coin.

   Anders never shows remorse or asks to be forgiving. He knows that he deserves the death that I give him, but I believe he deserves more. I believe he should be thrown in a pit bound with the families of his victims. Let them decided if he is worthy of redemption, but there isn't time for that. So, one most settle for a quick death.

Coming into this a bit late, but wanted to comment on this. Isabela does lie though, she withholds information from Hawke for years, if ever you go to the Qunari compound she makes excuses and leaves. When she confesses about the book, she goes with Hawke to get it with the intention of running off with it again (that is at least my interpretation). She then steals the book again leaving you a note to say Sorry But Bye, thus betraying you. Please don't interpret me as hating Isabela as I like the character (I like pretty much all the characters despite/because of their faults), but it seems odd to me that you feel she doesn't lie to you but Anders does. They both do.

[Camilladilla]

Phenerios wrote...

  She does her best to make it right. The Arishok was going to attack Kirkwall anyways. He had made up his mind on that point no matter what. And she never lied to me, she told the truth, but in a way that it wasn't very clear. Now, see I have yet to flame anyones opnion or bad mouth anyone. I am just adding to a discussion on a forum, in a thread that had no one stating the otherside of the coin.

   Anders never shows remorse or asks to be forgiving. He knows that he deserves the death that I give him, but I believe he deserves more. I believe he should be thrown in a pit bound with the families of his victims. Let them decided if he is worthy of redemption, but there isn't time for that. So, one most settle for a quick death.

Isabela can also completely leave you in the dust to deal with the mess she caused. Even if she sticks around she shows absolutely no remorse over her actions and shrugs off the death and destructon she's caused.

And yes of course, being completely evasive and not telling you the truth for 3+ years is just so much better than outright lying to your face.

[Miri1984]

Phenerios wrote...

  She does her best to make it right. The Arishok was going to attack Kirkwall anyways. He had made up his mind on that point no matter what. And she never lied to me, she told the truth, but in a way that it wasn't very clear. Now, see I have yet to flame anyones opnion or bad mouth anyone. I am just adding to a discussion on a forum, in a thread that had no one stating the otherside of the coin.

   Anders never shows remorse or asks to be forgiving. He knows that he deserves the death that I give him, but I believe he deserves more. I believe he should be thrown in a pit bound with the families of his victims. Let them decided if he is worthy of redemption, but there isn't time for that. So, one most settle for a quick death.

See, that's just being flamey. Your previous posts weren't. And if you bothered to read the rest of the thread (and I know it's a lot to get through) you'll see there are a LOT of people who agree with you that he betrayed you and deserves death, or some kind of punishment.

Also, you're wrong about Anders not showing remorse. If you go down the rivalry path he begs you to kill him for what he's done. He's completely broken by it, and hates himself for doing it. 

On top of all this, you're contradicting yourself. You said outright that if someone lies to you and betrays your trust they cannot be forgiven. Izzy does both. So by your own arguments she shouldn't be forgiven and you should have sent her off with the Arishok when they wanted to take her.

The conclusion I have to come to is that the only reason you're angry with Anders is because you don't like him as much as you like her. Which is fine. But call it what it is, don't try to justify it through morality.

[YamiSnuffles]

Phenerios wrote...

  She does her best to make it right. The Arishok was going to attack Kirkwall anyways. He had made up his mind on that point no matter what. And she never lied to me, she told the truth, but in a way that it wasn't very clear. Now, see I have yet to flame anyones opnion or bad mouth anyone. I am just adding to a discussion on a forum, in a thread that had no one stating the otherside of the coin.

   Anders never shows remorse or asks to be forgiving. He knows that he deserves the death that I give him, but I believe he deserves more. I believe he should be thrown in a pit bound with the families of his victims. Let them decided if he is worthy of redemption, but there isn't time for that. So, one most settle for a quick death.

She did lie. She just said she was trying to find a relic to save her own life. She never said that she stole a Qunari relic and that was the reason they would leave the city. She caused years of tension and trouble in the city. As Miri said, she might have ended up sparking a larger war as the Arishok promised.

By your logic, Anders didn't lie either. He told you he needed to make a potion to free him and Justice. That's just what he does in your game. You kill him, and they are free. Not saying that's the way I even see it, but that your logic is really confusing if you don't think Izzy lied to you.

Not to mention, if you actually let Anders live you can make him work to help fix what he's started. You can make him fight to help the mages and protect the ones he has endangered, thus working toward some manner of redemption. Also, I don't know what game you were playing that you didn't think he showed any remorse in the end. He looks and sounds miserable after he blows up the Chantry. He feels terrible for what he's done. Unfortunately, it's something he thinks needs to be done, no matter the cost to him or others.

[Inzhuna]

Btw something that bothered me for ages - How the HELL does Varric know in Act 2 that Isabela's relic belongs to Qunari? And Hawke stands ther listening to ther banter as if it's nothing serious. And then they all go and act surprised when Isabela tells the whole truth in To Catch A Thief.

[Phenerios]

kromify wrote...

Phenerios wrote...

Amondra wrote...

At the beginning I think he was still in denial about what has happened, that he can still try and save it. By the end of the game he comes to realize that he is what he hates most, and it tears him up to no end. If you are referring to the Chantry thing, he even states he didn't tell you because 1) you would try to stop him or 2) you would want to help and he didn't want the blood on your hands.

That sounds more like a friend trying to protect you from their short comings. But that is my take on it, how I feel. Everyone has their opinions on the matter, no one is going to change theirs so there is no point in fighting over it. You just look like an ass for trying to "win".

I agree with the character development.  It really fell flat, considering the game spand seven years!  Most the characters barely had one side to them I.E. Fenris.

   The fact that he lied to me, is a betrayal to me. I believe one of the worsts things someone can do is lying to you about something that important. By the end of the game most of your followers see you as their leader. To so blantly lie to you leader in an attempt to undermind his plans his the very essence of betrayal. No, matter his intentions the shedding of innocent blood, and the betrayal of a friends trust makes all actions null and void of meaning.

i get the impression you're thinking of the game as high fantasy. hawke is thrown into situations and she/he muddles through as best they can so i can't see any attempt to undermine hawke's plans. (doesn't really have any). he has always been clear about his views and the other companions comment about how he wants/plans the revolution. it was no surprise. you might be the leader of the gang but that doesn't mean you own those who follow you. they have their own lives and follow you around for lulz  on the weekends.

edit for top

The Knight Commander points out to him a few times the only reason he is suffered in Kirkwall is because he is your Companion. Which means as soon as he betrayed me his life was forfiet to whoever felt like claiming it. It just happens everyone turns to me and tells me to handle it. If they just followed for the lulz why did anyone bother to ask me what to do with him.

Modifié par Phenerios, 22 avril 2011 - 12:15 .

[kromify]

Phenerios wrote...

Miri1984 wrote...

kromify wrote...

Miri1984 wrote...

Isabela betrays you and lies to you all through Act I and Act II as well. Do you have the same reaction to her as you do to Anders?

hmm well i do... hawke protects all her friends. she has no family left

I love Izzy and forgive her and FIGHT THE DAMN ARISHOK for her even though she's technically betrayed me. Because she's my friend. It's what friends do. Same with Anders.

And really, when it gets down to it, Isabela's actions killed a hell of a lot of people. Maybe not in the long term as many as Anders will (considering the war he's hoping to spark) but certainly more than one Chantry full. And possibly even more, considering the Arishok has promised the Qunari will return and I DON'T think he meant to exchange crocheting patterns.

  She does her best to make it right. The Arishok was going to attack Kirkwall anyways. He had made up his mind on that point no matter what. And she never lied to me, she told the truth, but in a way that it wasn't very clear. Now, see I have yet to flame anyones opnion or bad mouth anyone. I am just adding to a discussion on a forum, in a thread that had no one stating the otherside of the coin.

   Anders never shows remorse or asks to be forgiving. He knows that he deserves the death that I give him, but I believe he deserves more. I believe he should be thrown in a pit bound with the families of his victims. Let them decided if he is worthy of redemption, but there isn't time for that. So, one most settle for a quick death.

not always. she ran away for good with me.

sound like you give him a mercy killing

[berelinde]

Phenerios wrote...
And she never lied to me, she told the truth, but in a way that it wasn't very clear.

Uh, sorry, but that's incorrect. Isabela lies about it repeatedly. To everyone. "I don't know what the relic is." "I never opened the box. It was a locked box." (when entering the Qunari compound with Isabela in the party) "I'll be back in a bit... I've got something to do."

She only comes clean when she wants your help, and for many players, as soon as she has the book, she takes off and is never seen again.

But she's Isabela, not Anders.

No one is flaming you. They just don't agree.

[Camilladilla]

YamiSnuffles wrote...

She did lie. She just said she was trying to find a relic to save her own life. She never said that she stole a Qunari relic and that was the reason they would leave the city. She caused years of tension and trouble in the city. As Miri said, she might have ended up sparking a larger war as the Arishok promised.

By your logic, Anders didn't lie either. He told you he needed to make a potion to free him and Justice. That's just what he does in your game. You kill him, and they are free. Not saying that's the way I even see it, but that your logic is really confusing if you don't think Izzy lied to you.

Not to mention, if you actually let Anders live you can make him work to help fix what he's started. You can make him fight to help the mages and protect the ones he has endangered, thus working toward some manner of redemption. Also, I don't know what game you were playing that you didn't think he showed any remorse in the end. He looks and sounds miserable after he blows up the Chantry. He feels terrible for what he's done. Unfortunately, it's something he thinks needs to be done, no matter the cost to him or others.

I guess the game just did it way too subtle? Apparently it isn't remorse unless Anders is throwing himself at Hawke's feet bawling and begging for forgiveness.

It was just my impression that Anders thought he was facing certain death and he was just trying to put on a brave face for the end.

[Dreaming-in-Shadow]

Phenerios wrote...

  She does her best to make it right. The Arishok was going to attack Kirkwall anyways. He had made up his mind on that point no matter what. And she never lied to me, she told the truth, but in a way that it wasn't very clear.

She does her best to make it right to her friend (Hawke) everybody else can go hang. Sod the consequences.
She attempted to obscure the truth, not quite the same as lying but near enough the same.

Now, see I have yet to flame anyones opnion or bad mouth anyone. I am just adding to a discussion on a forum, in a thread that had no one stating the otherside of the coin.

We noticed. There's nothing wrong with that.
Thanks for being as respectful as possible when debating over a point you clearly feel strongly about.

Anders never shows remorse or asks to be forgiving. He knows that he deserves the death that I give him, but I believe he deserves more. I believe he should be thrown in a pit bound with the families of his victims. Let them decided if he is worthy of redemption, but there isn't time for that. So, one most settle for a quick death.

I feel the urge to think of all the hundreds of children and families that lost their children to the templars or the Circle... Just thinking of Anders' side of the argument and my own.
Anyhow, the mess that Anders made... something akin to that would happen anyway, and somebody was going to set it off. It just happened to be Anders first (For drama. Thanks for that, Bioware.)

The part I want to slap him for is the reaction he had to the slaughter that broke out on the streets:
"This is... not what I expected..."

"No. Really!?"

[Inzhuna]

I hate the final speech in the Gallows though. If you want to stay with Anders, Hawke sounds so happy it just irks me. "We'll be fugitives together lololol" I wanted her to say something to the effect "What you've done was horrible but I can't lose you".

[Dreaming-in-Shadow]

Inzhuna wrote...

I hate the final speech in the Gallows though. If you want to stay with Anders, Hawke sounds so happy it just irks me. "We'll be fugitives together lololol" I wanted her to say something to the effect "What you've done was horrible but I can't lose you".

I put it down to shock.

[Miri1984]

@Inzhuna I think if you decide to stay with him at the end the game assumes you approve of his actions. From Anders' POV I actually wouldn't be too keen on having a Hawke along with him who didn't, although considering twu wuv and all that, I could be being too cynical. Certainly Saoirse is fine with what he did when she says that line.

And I agree, it's a bit happy, but then it's the very last thing she says to him in the entire game, if they'd made it miserable people would have been miserable about THAT too .

[Camilladilla]

Inzhuna wrote...

Some badass Anders art by runaire on deviantart.

Didn't get a chance to comment on this but HOLY **** that's awesome. I love the colours and the style o_o

[TheComfyCat]

Inzhuna wrote...

I hate the final speech in the Gallows though. If you want to stay with Anders, Hawke sounds so happy it just irks me. "We'll be fugitives together lololol" I wanted her to say something to the effect "What you've done was horrible but I can't lose you".

I really wish we had dialogue like that, too.

But I think the "I want you here, until the day we die!" line is still the worst.

[Dreaming-in-Shadow]

senorfuzzylips wrote...

Inzhuna wrote...

I hate the final speech in the Gallows though. If you want to stay with Anders, Hawke sounds so happy it just irks me. "We'll be fugitives together lololol" I wanted her to say something to the effect "What you've done was horrible but I can't lose you".

I really wish we had dialogue like that, too.

But I think the "I want you here, until the day we die!" line is still the worst.

Now that made me cringe.
Always take the "Want a sandwich?" option! Always! (Because Anders' reaction in brilliant<3)

[ekurian]

Inzhuna wrote...

I hate the final speech in the Gallows though. If you want to stay with Anders, Hawke sounds so happy it just irks me. "We'll be fugitives together lololol" I wanted her to say something to the effect "What you've done was horrible but I can't lose you".

That always bugged me too >< In fact, there were some lines that just didn't work depending on what Hawke I was playing- like the UNTIL THE DAY WE DIE LOLOL bit. My Hawke would still be falling over herself with shock.

And letting Anders live and letting him come with you is... weird. He goes from FML to YAY LETS KILL TEMPLARS TOGETHER in the space of seconds.
Or if you tell him to go away, he's all I WON'T MESS UP THIS TIME LOL.

[Camilladilla]

Dreaming-in-Shadow wrote...

senorfuzzylips wrote...

Inzhuna wrote...

I hate the final speech in the Gallows though. If you want to stay with Anders, Hawke sounds so happy it just irks me. "We'll be fugitives together lololol" I wanted her to say something to the effect "What you've done was horrible but I can't lose you".

I really wish we had dialogue like that, too.

But I think the "I want you here, until the day we die!" line is still the worst.

Now that made me cringe.
Always take the "Want a sandwich?" option! Always! (Because Anders' reaction in brilliant<3)

I sometimes go for the diplomatic/cheesy romance line just to hear Anders get all woobie with those puppy dog eyes.

[Phenerios]

Camilladilla wrote...

YamiSnuffles wrote...

She did lie. She just said she was trying to find a relic to save her own life. She never said that she stole a Qunari relic and that was the reason they would leave the city. She caused years of tension and trouble in the city. As Miri said, she might have ended up sparking a larger war as the Arishok promised.

By your logic, Anders didn't lie either. He told you he needed to make a potion to free him and Justice. That's just what he does in your game. You kill him, and they are free. Not saying that's the way I even see it, but that your logic is really confusing if you don't think Izzy lied to you.

Not to mention, if you actually let Anders live you can make him work to help fix what he's started. You can make him fight to help the mages and protect the ones he has endangered, thus working toward some manner of redemption. Also, I don't know what game you were playing that you didn't think he showed any remorse in the end. He looks and sounds miserable after he blows up the Chantry. He feels terrible for what he's done. Unfortunately, it's something he thinks needs to be done, no matter the cost to him or others.

I guess the game just did it way too subtle? Apparently it isn't remorse unless Anders is throwing himself at Hawke's feet bawling and begging for forgiveness.

It was just my impression that Anders thought he was facing certain death and he was just trying to put on a brave face for the end.

  At no point does he apologize or voice regret for the death of those who were neither mage, templay, or member of the chantry, but simple citizens who were trying to find peace in the chantry. Isbella never stole the artifact from the Qunari. She stole it before the actually had it. Sher never lied about her what she was planning on doing. She didn't say hey come help get this book from these guys, and then walks into an ophanage and slaughters all the kids to get the book back.

   I have gone through were I went straight to the Qunari and didn't help her. They attack even before they know their relic is gone. To me that proves they had decided that it was the will of the Qun to purge the city of the unworhty. Therefore yes it is her fault that they are there, but it is the city's fault for treating them in such a manner that provoked them.
  
   The Chantry itself did not provoke Anders. It was the templars, and namely a small number of them too. Instead though he decides to nuke a building with innocent people in it. His is story sad and maybe a bit tragic, but that in no way justifies such an act. They is no way to repair the damage he caused. He knew full well the results of his actions, Isbella could not foresee that 3-4 years after she stole the relic that it would be the thing that started a chain reaction that caused the Qunari to attack. That is the key difference between them.

[TheComfyCat]

Dreaming-in-Shadow wrote...

senorfuzzylips wrote...

Inzhuna wrote...

I hate the final speech in the Gallows though. If you want to stay with Anders, Hawke sounds so happy it just irks me. "We'll be fugitives together lololol" I wanted her to say something to the effect "What you've done was horrible but I can't lose you".

I really wish we had dialogue like that, too.

But I think the "I want you here, until the day we die!" line is still the worst.

Now that made me cringe.
Always take the "Want a sandwich?" option! Always! (Because Anders' reaction in brilliant<3)

I usually take the "Don't ever leave!<3<3<3<3!!!!!!" line because his asking to move in is less awkward that way.

[ekurian]

Phenerios wrote...


At no point does he apologize or voice regret for the death of those who were neither mage, templay, or
member of the chantry, but simple citizens who were trying to find peace in the chantry.

(snipped most of it out)

He does; I think. On my last PT, my Hawke said that he'd killed all of those in the Chantry- innocent people. He said 'I know'.

I don't recall the exact wording, or how I got it, but it is there.

[Sialater]

Does anyone have that Che Anders pic anymore?

[kromify]

Phenerios wrote...

  At no point does he apologize or voice regret for the death of those who were neither mage, templay, or member of the chantry, but simple citizens who were trying to find peace in the chantry. Isbella never stole the artifact from the Qunari. She stole it before the actually had it. Sher never lied about her what she was planning on doing. She didn't say hey come help get this book from these guys, and then walks into an ophanage and slaughters all the kids to get the book back.

   I have gone through were I went straight to the Qunari and didn't help her. They attack even before they know their relic is gone. To me that proves they had decided that it was the will of the Qun to purge the city of the unworhty. Therefore yes it is her fault that they are there, but it is the city's fault for treating them in such a manner that provoked them.
  
   The Chantry itself did not provoke Anders. It was the templars, and namely a small number of them too. Instead though he decides to nuke a building with innocent people in it. His is story sad and maybe a bit tragic, but that in no way justifies such an act. They is no way to repair the damage he caused. He knew full well the results of his actions, Isbella could not foresee that 3-4 years after she stole the relic that it would be the thing that started a chain reaction that caused the Qunari to attack. That is the key difference between them.

that does make it completely different. <_<

also chantry > templars > mages.  the templars are the military arm of the chantry. everything they do has been condoned by them whether in actuality or by omission