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[Dreaming-in-Shadow]

Camilladilla wrote...

Dreaming-in-Shadow wrote...

Aiiiiieeeeeee!!!

Err... is he smoking a joint? That would explain why he looks so bad I suppose.

Aiiiieee is a cry of terror (last I checked.

[YamiSnuffles]

Phenerios wrote...

    Look I never implied anyone was stupid. Trust me if I wanted that implied I would have just send it outright. I'm a pretty blunt person when it comes to stupidity. On the contray I found the back in forth amusing, and rather informative since I have never romanced Anders, and people mentioned things it seems you only find out when you do so. I didn't argue the Isabella thing, because I know my views where it comes to that are skewed. I tend to think alot like her, expect I do my best to avoiding anyone else in the process. The problem is I know not anyone here, and you all know not me. So, what I see as a normal reasonable statement for me, may in turn seem something else to someone that does not know me.

Okay, now I am starting to think you are being purposefully obtuse.

I did not say you intended to imply people were stupid. But you did imply it, intention or not. When you say things like you want to inform us of things we may not have thought of before and then follow with arguments over very basic plot points, it assumes we are stupid. Because we would have to be stupid not to have talked about these things. I'll add AGAIN that I know it wasn't your intention. Just that it comes across that way and we told you that numerous times.

That said, I'm not trying to be mean or imply that I know you. I enjoy debates for the very reasons you listed above- it's a chance to see things you might not have before. However, you are in the Anders thread. You are more likely to learn more about him here than we are. We've flipped that coin a million times over. If you would like to hear what we think of one side or another, I'm sure many would be happy to oblige. We just don't appreciate it when it is implied (unintentionally) that we are blind to various sides of the issue.

Modifié par YamiSnuffles, 22 avril 2011 - 02:35 .

[Dreaming-in-Shadow]

Soddit. I'm gonna go play DA2.
AGAIN

[kromify]

hellooooo i'm back! not enough smut and depravity going on for my liking

[YamiSnuffles]

kromify wrote...

hellooooo i'm back! not enough smut and depravity going on for my liking

Haha. I'll second that sentiment. Between all this fighting and the talks about mental health over the past few days, this thread is getting depressing.

*blissfully imagines FabAnders riding the Alicorn through a forest of necroboners*

[kromify]

might just watch the romance scene many times...

Modifié par kromify, 22 avril 2011 - 02:51 .

[Shmeep Shmee]

Sialater wrote...

Shmeep Shmee wrote...

Sialater wrote...

Shmeep Shmee wrote...

Sialater wrote...

kromify wrote...

Sialater wrote...

You mean like this?

why would someone do this? 

Takes place after one of his escape attempts.  It's.... downright prophetic, now.  Not to mention just gorgeously done.

Someone really needs to write a fic about this picture.  Pretty please?  I will have your internet babies if you do.

I've actually been working on one.  But I need to finish The Rescue, first.

Thank you.  How many internet babies would you like.

LOL, it won't be all romancy, since it'll be 14 year old Moira seeing him like that.

That is fine, I enjoy a good spot of Anders torture.  Would not be able to stand DA2 if I did not

[YamiSnuffles]

kromify wrote...

alicorn? i missed that...

Yep. FabAnders rides the trusty Alicorn.

[Phenerios]

YamiSnuffles wrote...

Phenerios wrote...

    Look I never implied anyone was stupid. Trust me if I wanted that implied I would have just send it outright. I'm a pretty blunt person when it comes to stupidity. On the contray I found the back in forth amusing, and rather informative since I have never romanced Anders, and people mentioned things it seems you only find out when you do so. I didn't argue the Isabella thing, because I know my views where it comes to that are skewed. I tend to think alot like her, expect I do my best to avoiding anyone else in the process. The problem is I know not anyone here, and you all know not me. So, what I see as a normal reasonable statement for me, may in turn seem something else to someone that does not know me.

Okay, now I am starting to think you are being purposefully obtuse.

I did not say you intended to imply people were stupid. But you did imply it, intention or not. When you say things like you want to inform us of things we may not have thought of before and then follow with arguments over very basic plot points, it assumes we are stupid. Because we would have to be stupid not to have talked about these things. I'll add AGAIN that I know it wasn't your intention. Just that it comes across that way and we told you that numerous times.

That said, I'm not trying to be mean or imply that I know you. I enjoy debates for the very reasons you listed above- it's a chance to see things you might not have before. However, you are in the Anders thread. You are more likely to learn more about him here than we are. We've flipped that coin a million times over. If you would like to hear what we think of one side or another, I'm sure many would be happy to oblige. We just don't appreciate it when it is implied (unintentionally) that we are blind to various sides of the issue.

  Ok, I went back and read my post. (it's 8am here and I have yet to sleep.) You are correct in one of my posts I do state that I came to show you all the flip side of the coin, but after that I make it clear that it was just my views from that side of the coin. I made a few general statements, because I am one person trying to address multiple people were everyone that was replying to me was only talking to one person.

   I on several occasions apolgized if anyone took offense to what I said, or how I said it. (I say if they took offense, becasue I don't know who did, and didn't if anyone.) You are right that I probably will learn more from you guys than you will from me, but yet everyone seemed surprised that I didn't find what Isabella did a betrayal. That goes into more of a personal beliefs and morales, than anything I can point to in game. It is an objective idea. I just felt it was better not to get into that debate. That is why I moved on from that.

  Thank you for treating me with some respect even though it seems you may have been offending by a misunderstanding between us.

[kromify]

Shmeep Shmee wrote...
That is fine, I enjoy a good spot of Anders torture.  Would not be able to stand DA2 if I did not

nah i'm a masochist. that's why i like the anders romance 

[kromify]

 

[ekurian]

kromify wrote...

 

GNEE <3

[YamiSnuffles]

Phenerios wrote...

  Ok, I went back and read my post. (it's 8am here and I have yet to sleep.) You are correct in one of my posts I do state that I came to show you all the flip side of the coin, but after that I make it clear that it was just my views from that side of the coin. I made a few general statements, because I am one person trying to address multiple people were everyone that was replying to me was only talking to one person.

   I on several occasions apolgized if anyone took offense to what I said, or how I said it. (I say if they took offense, becasue I don't know who did, and didn't if anyone.) You are right that I probably will learn more from you guys than you will from me, but yet everyone seemed surprised that I didn't find what Isabella did a betrayal. That goes into more of a personal beliefs and morales, than anything I can point to in game. It is an objective idea. I just felt it was better not to get into that debate. That is why I moved on from that.

  Thank you for treating me with some respect even though it seems you may have been offending by a misunderstanding between us.

Yeah, I mean, no problem with me at least. I understood why you dropped the Isabela thing. If you hadn't I would have because, frankly, I completely disagree and I think it had been argued enough to get our basic ideas across. It seemed clear enough that neither side would ever agree. Also, I can certainly understand the difficulty of arguing on little sleep.

If you can stand skimming a lot, there is some really interesting stuff throughout the thread.

EDIT: Just wanted to add that I am at least sorry if I got snippy at any point. I tend to get that way after arguing for a while which is why I try to avoid jumping into such things.

EDIT 2: On second thought, see some of sassperella's comments below.

Modifié par YamiSnuffles, 22 avril 2011 - 03:19 .

[LastFadingSmile]

Camilladilla wrote...

Dreaming-in-Shadow wrote...

Aiiiiieeeeeee!!!

Err... is he smoking a joint? That would explain why he looks so bad I suppose.

[sassperella]

Phenerios wrote...

YamiSnuffles wrote...

Phenerios wrote...

    Look I never implied anyone was stupid. Trust me if I wanted that implied I would have just send it outright. I'm a pretty blunt person when it comes to stupidity. On the contray I found the back in forth amusing, and rather informative since I have never romanced Anders, and people mentioned things it seems you only find out when you do so. I didn't argue the Isabella thing, because I know my views where it comes to that are skewed. I tend to think alot like her, expect I do my best to avoiding anyone else in the process. The problem is I know not anyone here, and you all know not me. So, what I see as a normal reasonable statement for me, may in turn seem something else to someone that does not know me.

Okay, now I am starting to think you are being purposefully obtuse.

I did not say you intended to imply people were stupid. But you did imply it, intention or not. When you say things like you want to inform us of things we may not have thought of before and then follow with arguments over very basic plot points, it assumes we are stupid. Because we would have to be stupid not to have talked about these things. I'll add AGAIN that I know it wasn't your intention. Just that it comes across that way and we told you that numerous times.

That said, I'm not trying to be mean or imply that I know you. I enjoy debates for the very reasons you listed above- it's a chance to see things you might not have before. However, you are in the Anders thread. You are more likely to learn more about him here than we are. We've flipped that coin a million times over. If you would like to hear what we think of one side or another, I'm sure many would be happy to oblige. We just don't appreciate it when it is implied (unintentionally) that we are blind to various sides of the issue.

  Ok, I went back and read my post. (it's 8am here and I have yet to sleep.) You are correct in one of my posts I do state that I came to show you all the flip side of the coin, but after that I make it clear that it was just my views from that side of the coin. I made a few general statements, because I am one person trying to address multiple people were everyone that was replying to me was only talking to one person.

   I on several occasions apolgized if anyone took offense to what I said, or how I said it. (I say if they took offense, becasue I don't know who did, and didn't if anyone.) You are right that I probably will learn more from you guys than you will from me, but yet everyone seemed surprised that I didn't find what Isabella did a betrayal. That goes into more of a personal beliefs and morales, than anything I can point to in game. It is an objective idea. I just felt it was better not to get into that debate. That is why I moved on from that.

  Thank you for treating me with some respect even though it seems you may have been offending by a misunderstanding between us.

I think the point is though, that you moved away from the Isabela debate when people pointed out with proof that she did in fact lie and did in fact betray you.

I don't remember the actual quotes someone included them earlier.

She says she doesn't know what the relic is when you ask her outright. She says it was in a locked box and didn't see it - that was an outright lie.

When you go to get the relic off her contact at the end of act two she agrees to give the book to the Arishok, then she runs off and leaves you taking the book and leaving just a note - that is outright betrayal and also another lie.

Both things you say Anders does but she doesn't. This is one of the reasons people got upset by that argument. You can say it's a personal moral issue if you like, but you came in saying you couldn't forgive Anders for lying to you and betraying you and people pointed out Isabela was as bad and you denied she did it.

As for other things Anders does... well that's very much a personal viewpoint and most people will respect others' views on that one even if they differ with their own.

Anyway it's late in Australia now so I need some sleep so I'll bid this thread goodnight

[YamiSnuffles]

sassperella wrote...
*snip*
Both things you say Anders does but she doesn't. This is one of the reasons people got upset by that argument. You can say it's a personal moral issue if you like, but you came in saying you couldn't forgive Anders for lying to you and betraying you and people pointed out Isabela was as bad and you denied she did it.

As for other things Anders does... well that's very much a personal viewpoint and most people will respect others' views on that one even if they differ with their own.

This... is also a good point. This really is what ended up pissing me off more than any perceived attitude.

[Dreaming-in-Shadow]

OK. I lied, I didn't play DA2.
I played Origins again.

And Alistair is a bad, bad man.
Because of his "remigold" comment, I am now drawing chibi Anders, Nate and Oghren...

hula dancing.

I blame this thread.

[YamiSnuffles]

Dreaming-in-Shadow wrote...

OK. I lied, I didn't play DA2.
I played Origins again.

And Alistair is a bad, bad man.
Because of his "remigold" comment, I am now drawing chibi Anders, Nate and Oghren...

hula dancing.

I blame this thread.

Hahaha. Alistair is a bad, bad man. And I love Duncan's reaction to that comment.

This thread is also the reason I'm currently drawing a blushing Ginders.

[Phenerios]

sassperella wrote...

I think the point is though, that you moved away from the Isabela debate when people pointed out with proof that she did in fact lie and did in fact betray you.

I don't remember the actual quotes someone included them earlier.

She says she doesn't know what the relic is when you ask her outright. She says it was in a locked box and didn't see it - that was an outright lie.

When you go to get the relic off her contact at the end of act two she agrees to give the book to the Arishok, then she runs off and leaves you taking the book and leaving just a note - that is outright betrayal and also another lie.

Both things you say Anders does but she doesn't. This is one of the reasons people got upset by that argument. You can say it's a personal moral issue if you like, but you came in saying you couldn't forgive Anders for lying to you and betraying you and people pointed out Isabela was as bad and you denied she did it.

As for other things Anders does... well that's very much a personal viewpoint and most people will respect others' views on that one even if they differ with their own.

Anyway it's late in Australia now so I need some sleep so I'll bid this thread goodnight

   Well, to me it is a belief/morale issue. I feel the fact that she was plain in her intent to get the artifact no matter the cost gave her her leeway for what she did. If my sleepy mind remembers right she does, or strongly implies that she would betray even you for it. And I mean if you have her friended she comes back. I find that a strong motive to forgive her.

   Now I maybe remembering wrong, but Anders never walks up to Meridth and says "I caused this take my life, and leave everyone else out of it.", or something to that effect. Correct me if I am wrong. If he would have I would have took him along as I told her to stick it.

Modifié par Phenerios, 22 avril 2011 - 03:21 .

[Dreaming-in-Shadow]

YamiSnuffles wrote...

Dreaming-in-Shadow wrote...

OK. I lied, I didn't play DA2.
I played Origins again.

And Alistair is a bad, bad man.
Because of his "remigold" comment, I am now drawing chibi Anders, Nate and Oghren...

hula dancing.

I blame this thread.

Hahaha. Alistair is a bad, bad man. And I love Duncan's reaction to that comment.

This thread is also the reason I'm currently drawing a blushing Ginders.

Will it be posted? (The correct answer is "yes")

[Sialater]

Phenerios wrote...

sassperella wrote...

I think the point is though, that you moved away from the Isabela debate when people pointed out with proof that she did in fact lie and did in fact betray you.

I don't remember the actual quotes someone included them earlier.

She says she doesn't know what the relic is when you ask her outright. She says it was in a locked box and didn't see it - that was an outright lie.

When you go to get the relic off her contact at the end of act two she agrees to give the book to the Arishok, then she runs off and leaves you taking the book and leaving just a note - that is outright betrayal and also another lie.

Both things you say Anders does but she doesn't. This is one of the reasons people got upset by that argument. You can say it's a personal moral issue if you like, but you came in saying you couldn't forgive Anders for lying to you and betraying you and people pointed out Isabela was as bad and you denied she did it.

As for other things Anders does... well that's very much a personal viewpoint and most people will respect others' views on that one even if they differ with their own.

Anyway it's late in Australia now so I need some sleep so I'll bid this thread goodnight

   Well, to me it is a belief/morale issue. I feel the fact that she was plain in her intent to get the artifact no matter the cost gave her her leeway for what she did. If my sleepy mind remember right she does, or strongly implies that she would betray even you for it. And I mean if you have her friended she comes back. I find that a strong motive to forgive her.

   Now I be remembering wrong, but Anders never walks up to Meridth and says "I caused this take my life, and leave everyone else out of it.", or something to that effect. Correct me if I am wrong. If he would have I would have took him along as I told her to stick it.

So... standing up in front of her and telling her he did it doesn't count?  

[kromify]

Sialater wrote...

Phenerios wrote...

   Now I be remembering wrong, but Anders never walks up to Meridth and says "I caused this take my life, and leave everyone else out of it.", or something to that effect. Correct me if I am wrong. If he would have I would have took him along as I told her to stick it.

So... standing up in front of her and telling her he did it doesn't count?  

he admitted it up front and lied specifically to keep you out of it.

Modifié par kromify, 22 avril 2011 - 03:24 .

[YamiSnuffles]

Phenerios wrote...

   Now I be remembering wrong, but Anders never walks up to Meridth and says "I caused this take my life, and leave everyone else out of it.", or something to that effect. Correct me if I am wrong. If he would have I would have took him along as I told her to stick it.

Anders does definitely say he didn't tell you what he was up to because he didn't want you to get in trouble. He says that he wants this all on him, which is why he doesn't run away but accepts whatever judgment Hawke might make, including taking his life. He never denies it when Orsino, Hawke, Sebastian or anyone else put the blame squarely on his shoulders. Obviously he did something right, because no one ends up blaming Hawke. If they had, I doubt Hawke would have been able to side with the Templars and Sebastian would want to kill Hawke as much as he wants to kill Anders (he does of course want to kill Hawke if you spare Anders, but that is a different issue).

No matter what Anders says, though, Meredith doesn't care. She had already called for the Rite of Annulment by the start of Act 3 (you can get that in ambient dialogue from the Templars in the Gallows). Meredith was going to wipe out the Circle and Anders just gave her an excuse to carry it out at that moment before she ever got any kind of permission. She doesn't care about Anders. She obviously knows he did it since she was there for the whole thing and he admits to it in front of everyone. Despite that, she is focused on wiping out the mages instead of executing Anders.

Modifié par YamiSnuffles, 22 avril 2011 - 03:30 .

[YamiSnuffles]

Dreaming-in-Shadow wrote...

YamiSnuffles wrote...

Dreaming-in-Shadow wrote...

OK. I lied, I didn't play DA2.
I played Origins again.

And Alistair is a bad, bad man.
Because of his "remigold" comment, I am now drawing chibi Anders, Nate and Oghren...

hula dancing.

I blame this thread.

Hahaha. Alistair is a bad, bad man. And I love Duncan's reaction to that comment.

This thread is also the reason I'm currently drawing a blushing Ginders.

Will it be posted? (The correct answer is "yes")

But of course. It also includes a skirt and his bare, hairy legs.

[Dunizel]

Phenerios wrote...

   Well, to me it is a belief/morale issue. I feel the fact that she was plain in her intent to get the artifact no matter the cost gave her her leeway for what she did. If my sleepy mind remembers right she does, or strongly implies that she would betray even you for it. And I mean if you have her friended she comes back. I find that a strong motive to forgive her.

   Now I maybe remembering wrong, but Anders never walks up to Meridth and says "I caused this take my life, and leave everyone else out of it.", or something to that effect. Correct me if I am wrong. If he would have I would have took him along as I told her to stick it.

Well, Anders never hides that his mission is something that comes first and foremost. Rival of friend, Vengeance or not, he makes it pretty clear from the start and the first thing he says iis that he will hurt you, or that it will end in a disaster. In the rivalmance path it seems more like he simply cannot stop Vengeance (or himself) even if he wanted to. 
This doesn't justofy anything, as we said many times, but I think at least his betrayal doesn't come as something unexpected. It was pretty obvious that he was hiding something. You can even add he was hiding his intent because he didn't want to involve Hawke in it, and he wanted to take all the blame and die. 
Here comes Meredith. If she wanted she could have executed Anders right there. But as it happens, she was more interested in calling the Annullment. (you can say her to kill your sister, but not Anders now that I think abouyt it). 
This was just a choice in the story...they wanted you to have the last word about Anders. And he is perfectly ready to die, and knows that what he has done is unforgivable. There was a talktable posted somewhere comfirming this too...

Modifié par Dunizel, 22 avril 2011 - 03:32 .