57020 réponses à ce sujet

[Inzhuna]

Phenerios wrote...

  Well, to me it is a belief/morale issue. I feel the fact that she was plain in her intent to get the artifact no matter the cost gave her her leeway for what she did. If my sleepy mind remembers right she does, or strongly implies that she would betray even you for it. And I mean if you have her friended she comes back. I find that a strong motive to forgive her.

   Now I maybe remembering wrong, but Anders never walks up to Meridth and says "I caused this take my life, and leave everyone else out of it.", or something to that effect. Correct me if I am wrong. If he would have I would have took him along as I told her to stick it.

... But Anders does the same thing! He always says that his cause is the most important thing to him and he would do everything to get justice! How is that different from Isabela being honest about doing anything to get the relic back?

edit for top: by thecomfycat

Modifié par Inzhuna, 22 avril 2011 - 03:32 .

[YamiSnuffles]

Yeah, just want to second (third? fourth?) what everyone else has already said about Anders being really clear about his agenda. He says, straight out, at one point that there is no one he wouldn't kill for his cause. He never hid how radical he was any more than Isabela hid that she wanted to save her own skin first and foremost.

It's part of the whole reason to rival him. In the rivalry you can try to get him to stop being so extreme. You can get him to change his mind enough about his tactics that Justice has to take complete control over his body in order to plant the bomb.

[Inzhuna]

YamiSnuffles wrote...

Dreaming-in-Shadow wrote...

YamiSnuffles wrote...

Hahaha. Alistair is a bad, bad man. And I love Duncan's reaction to that comment.

This thread is also the reason I'm currently drawing a blushing Ginders.

Will it be posted? (The correct answer is "yes")

But of course. It also includes a skirt and his bare, hairy legs.

ilu

[Phenerios]

Okay way I can explain my point of view is that Isabella the whole times makes it no secret that she is a pirate/thief whatever you want to call her. Anders plays as this misunderstood healer that wishes only to help people and free the mages. Did I know he was hiding something the first time around yes, but I never expected something like what he did. I think that makes the betrayal seem worse.

I expect someone like Isabella to betray me at anytime. I count it as a part of dealing with someone of that sort, but Anders didn't seem like he would betray me. I trusted him and he betrayed me. I never truly trusted Isabella.

[kromify]

Phenerios wrote...

Okay way I can explain my point of view is that Isabella the whole times makes it no secret that she is a pirate/thief whatever you want to call her. Anders plays as this misunderstood healer that wishes only to help people and free the mages. Did I know he was hiding something the first time around yes, but I never expected something like what he did. I think that makes the betrayal seem worse.

I expect someone like Isabella to betray me at anytime. I count it as a part of dealing with someone of that sort, but Anders didn't seem like he would betray me. I trusted him and he betrayed me. I never truly trusted Isabella.

anders broke your heart... welcome to the thread <3

[Dreaming-in-Shadow]

kromify wrote...

Phenerios wrote...

Okay way I can explain my point of view is that Isabella the whole times makes it no secret that she is a pirate/thief whatever you want to call her. Anders plays as this misunderstood healer that wishes only to help people and free the mages. Did I know he was hiding something the first time around yes, but I never expected something like what he did. I think that makes the betrayal seem worse.

I expect someone like Isabella to betray me at anytime. I count it as a part of dealing with someone of that sort, but Anders didn't seem like he would betray me. I trusted him and he betrayed me. I never truly trusted Isabella.

anders broke your heart... welcome to the thread <3

...am I the only person who wasn't heartbroken by the whole "betrayal" thing?

[highcastle]

I don't see what Anders did as a betrayal. He's not lashing out at you, he's fighting a societal issue. He also makes it clear his cause is more important than anything else. In lying to Hawke he was largely trying to protect him by keeping his hands clean. He may have manipulated you, but since he made his intentions clear I don't see it as a betrayal. Hopefully that makes sense but I suspect it doesn't (the perils of posting in class, alas).

[kromify]

Dreaming-in-Shadow wrote...

kromify wrote...

Phenerios wrote...

Okay way I can explain my point of view is that Isabella the whole times makes it no secret that she is a pirate/thief whatever you want to call her. Anders plays as this misunderstood healer that wishes only to help people and free the mages. Did I know he was hiding something the first time around yes, but I never expected something like what he did. I think that makes the betrayal seem worse.

I expect someone like Isabella to betray me at anytime. I count it as a part of dealing with someone of that sort, but Anders didn't seem like he would betray me. I trusted him and he betrayed me. I never truly trusted Isabella.

anders broke your heart... welcome to the thread <3

...am I the only person who wasn't heartbroken by the whole "betrayal" thing?

possibly. but like i stated previously; i'm a masochist.   and i keep my happy endings no matter what

edit; i also don't think of it as a betrayal, but it still shocked me how far he'd fallen

Modifié par kromify, 22 avril 2011 - 04:01 .

[Sialater]

Phenerios wrote...

Okay way I can explain my point of view is that Isabella the whole times makes it no secret that she is a pirate/thief whatever you want to call her. Anders plays as this misunderstood healer that wishes only to help people and free the mages. Did I know he was hiding something the first time around yes, but I never expected something like what he did. I think that makes the betrayal seem worse.

I expect someone like Isabella to betray me at anytime. I count it as a part of dealing with someone of that sort, but Anders didn't seem like he would betray me. I trusted him and he betrayed me. I never truly trusted Isabella.

So... you trusted an admittedly insane and unstable abomination?  And that's his fault?

The thing about Anders' relationship with Hawke is that no matter what, no matter how close they get, no matter how in love they are, or how tight the friendship, Anders cannot be saved.  His fall was predestined the moment he agreed to merge with Justice.  

This isn't "the love of a good man/woman can save him."  It's "go ahead and try.  You'll fail."  Which is far more realisitic in my book.

I think the comparison to Izzy has been done to death, though, so I'm not going to touch it.

[kromify]

Sialater wrote...

The thing about Anders' relationship with Hawke is that no matter what, no matter how close they get, no matter how in love they are, or how tight the friendship, Anders cannot be saved.  His fall was predestined the moment he agreed to merge with Justice.  

This isn't "the love of a good man/woman can save him."  It's "go ahead and try.  You'll fail."  Which is far more realisitic in my book.

you gonna make me criez 

[Inzhuna]

highcastle wrote...

I don't see what Anders did as a betrayal. He's not lashing out at you, he's fighting a societal issue. He also makes it clear his cause is more important than anything else. In lying to Hawke he was largely trying to protect him by keeping his hands clean. He may have manipulated you, but since he made his intentions clear I don't see it as a betrayal. Hopefully that makes sense but I suspect it doesn't (the perils of posting in class, alas).

I think it depends on how you imagine Hawke and Anders' relationship. For my Hawke who rivaled him, when he told of the potion, she got very hopeful (and that blinded her to how suspicious the whole thing was). When she realised there never was a potion, and he manipulated her feelings, she was already heartbroken. And when he blew up the Chantry to ignite a war when she spent so much time trying to resolve things peacefully, it definitely felt like a betrayal.

But I can see how other people can interprete it differently, it's great!

ETA: that's a great post, Sialater, I agree very much.

Modifié par Inzhuna, 22 avril 2011 - 04:04 .

[Dunizel]

Phenerios wrote...

Okay way I can explain my point of view is that Isabella the whole times makes it no secret that she is a pirate/thief whatever you want to call her. Anders plays as this misunderstood healer that wishes only to help people and free the mages. Did I know he was hiding something the first time around yes, but I never expected something like what he did. I think that makes the betrayal seem worse.

I expect someone like Isabella to betray me at anytime. I count it as a part of dealing with someone of that sort, but Anders didn't seem like he would betray me. I trusted him and he betrayed me. I never truly trusted Isabella.

I don't think he "plays as" a healer, he really is and really wishes to help people. 
The problem is the mission for the freedom of mages, or Vengeance, whatever you want to call it, after the years becomes difficult to avoid and ignore. We have always to keep in mind that ten years passed, ten years in which things only got worst, no one did anything, and he saw things we didn't. For some time he even wanted to drop the cause, but in the end he couldn't (for whatever reason, we might never know).

That said yes, his betrayal for me was much more a punch in the gut than Isabela's. On this we can agree. I trusted Anders, but I also knew that Anders couldn't even trust himself at that point. He was driven by forces he couldn't just ignore...in the friendly path in a less conflictual way, but my Hawkes knew that something had to happen sooner or later. It hurt, of course.

But again, I do not think Isabela's betrayal is much better. She did it only for a selfish purpouse and caused a massacre in the city. Even if she comes back with the  book, you cannot say that she didn't cause the death of many people...

Modifié par Dunizel, 22 avril 2011 - 04:07 .

[YamiSnuffles]

Anders doesn't just play the misunderstood healer.

*sigh*

See, this is where I started getting annoyed last time. You seem to ignore what I've (and other people) said. He says in the game that he would kill anyone for his cause. If I can find the quote, I'll post it. He is really, really blatant about how extreme his views are. He's willing to kill a good Templar in order to free some apostates. He writes a freaking manifesto and leaves it everywhere. If that alone doesn't scream crazy revolutionary to you, I don't know what would.

Also, he admits a bunch of times to being an abomination. One of his side quests shows how out of control he can get because of that. He nearly kills a fellow mage because Justice has gotten so out of control.

I can hardly count the number of times I called him out in the game for wanting to go too far. He's constantly going too far. I don't know if I can even argue this point, because I cannot fathom why you thought he would only do fluffy good things to help the mages.

At any rate, your argument seems to stem from "Well, it hurt more so he can go to hell, while Izzy can still be my friend." I dunno. I just don't get your argument. At. All.

[Inzhuna]

@Dunizel: Exactly. Anders, however misguided, had a noble cause, whilst Isabela was incredibly selfish (I love her anyway). Btw what was Isabela's reason to steal the Koslun tome in the first place? For the lulz?

[Sialater]

kromify wrote...

Sialater wrote...

The thing about Anders' relationship with Hawke is that no matter what, no matter how close they get, no matter how in love they are, or how tight the friendship, Anders cannot be saved.  His fall was predestined the moment he agreed to merge with Justice.  

This isn't "the love of a good man/woman can save him."  It's "go ahead and try.  You'll fail."  Which is far more realisitic in my book.

you gonna make me criez 

Awww, there, there...

Here, take this:

Modifié par Sialater, 22 avril 2011 - 04:07 .

[Heidenreich]

Your link is brokeded

[LastFadingSmile]

Dreaming-in-Shadow wrote...


...am I the only person who wasn't heartbroken by the whole "betrayal" thing?

I wasn't really heartbroken either, so much as I felt like I'd been suckerpunched. I felt kind of stupid for not putting the elements together but I -- much like my Hawke I guess -- was just so swept up in everything I'd been put through at that point. We were both pretty naive, and both more worried for [what was left of] Anders than mad at him.

Modifié par Kolotosa, 22 avril 2011 - 04:07 .

[signcherie]

Dreaming-in-Shadow wrote...

...am I the only person who wasn't heartbroken by the whole "betrayal" thing?

No, I wasn't either.

[kromify]

Sialater wrote...

kromify wrote...

Sialater wrote...

The thing about Anders' relationship with Hawke is that no matter what, no matter how close they get, no matter how in love they are, or how tight the friendship, Anders cannot be saved.  His fall was predestined the moment he agreed to merge with Justice.  

This isn't "the love of a good man/woman can save him."  It's "go ahead and try.  You'll fail."  Which is far more realisitic in my book.

you gonna make me criez 

Awww, there, there...

Here, take this:

thank you *sniffles*   

[Heidenreich]

signcherie wrote...

Dreaming-in-Shadow wrote...

...am I the only person who wasn't heartbroken by the whole "betrayal" thing?

No, I wasn't either.

I was, later in other playthroughs. In my intial one though, where I ruthlessly went after anders because he was ANDERS and I wanted to be his GIRLFRIEND FOR LIFE... I didn't even SEE it untill I was all "Wait, was that why you wanted me to distract the grand cleric!?". Previous to then I was litterally oblivious.

"... WHY DIDNT YOU JUST TELL ME I WOULD HAVE TOTALLY DONE IT FOR YOU , ANDERS!!!!!1111oneoneone" was my very first Hawke's line of thinking. She was a little revolutionary, and was upset that he was worried for HER. Flemeth told her to jump off that cliff, and she'd chosen the anders-flavored one to jump off of!<3

[Phenerios]

YamiSnuffles wrote...

Anders doesn't just play the misunderstood healer.

*sigh*

See, this is where I started getting annoyed last time. You seem to ignore what I've (and other people) said. He says in the game that he would kill anyone for his cause. If I can find the quote, I'll post it. He is really, really blatant about how extreme his views are. He's willing to kill a good Templar in order to free some apostates. He writes a freaking manifesto and leaves it everywhere. If that alone doesn't scream crazy revolutionary to you, I don't know what would.

Also, he admits a bunch of times to being an abomination. One of his side quests shows how out of control he can get because of that. He nearly kills a fellow mage because Justice has gotten so out of control.

I can hardly count the number of times I called him out in the game for wanting to go too far. He's constantly going too far. I don't know if I can even argue this point, because I cannot fathom why you thought he would only do fluffy good things to help the mages.

At any rate, your argument seems to stem from "Well, it hurt more so he can go to hell, while Izzy can still be my friend." I dunno. I just don't get your argument. At. All.

 Honestly I don't remember hearing him say that. (I have a roommate that is bad at busting and ranting in my ear durning cutscenes.) So, it seems I missed something. Thank you for correcting me.

[kromify]

Heidenreich wrote...

signcherie wrote...

Dreaming-in-Shadow wrote...

...am I the only person who wasn't heartbroken by the whole "betrayal" thing?

No, I wasn't either.

I was, later in other playthroughs. In my intial one though, where I ruthlessly went after anders because he was ANDERS and I wanted to be his GIRLFRIEND FOR LIFE... I didn't even SEE it untill I was all "Wait, was that why you wanted me to distract the grand cleric!?". Previous to then I was litterally oblivious.

"... WHY DIDNT YOU JUST TELL ME I WOULD HAVE TOTALLY DONE IT FOR YOU , ANDERS!!!!!1111oneoneone" was my very first Hawke's line of thinking. She was a little revolutionary, and was upset that he was worried for HER. Flemeth told her to jump off that cliff, and she'd chosen the anders-flavored one to jump off of!<3

hahaha yes i totally felt like that. i was completely shocked but there was no way i was going to let go<3

[Dunizel]

signcherie wrote...

Dreaming-in-Shadow wrote...

...am I the only person who wasn't heartbroken by the whole "betrayal" thing?

No, I wasn't either.

Depends on how you RP your Hawke I suppose. 
My mage Hawke knew something was going on, supported his cause, and when it happened he was fully prepared, he knew beforehand and it didn't feel like a betrayal at all. He even understood why Anders didn't tell him anything to protect him and his social position. 
Still, he would have probably used another approach on the situation, if Anders had allowed it and talked about it

My Hawkette, on the other hand, was a rogue that was still trying to resolve things peacefully whenever she could...yes she knew that things were going to go downhill soon, but she didn't expect THAT. You can say she was more naive, she would have at least liked to know what her friend was planning..

[Sialater]

I got spoiled, so I knew about it going in.

Still had no idea how my Hawke would react till I got there.

[Kawamura]

signcherie wrote...

Dreaming-in-Shadow wrote...

...am I the only person who wasn't heartbroken by the whole "betrayal" thing?

No, I wasn't either.

My Hawke certainly wasn't.

The whole slidding into madness thing, losing the man he was living with, yada yada, more that was heart breaking (and gradual). The "Anders does something extremeley stupid and dangerous and morally unpalatable for the mages' cause when he already leaves his creepy ass crazy writtings all over the house that call for freedom at any cost" thing was kinda inevitable. It'd be like feeling heartbroken by water running downhill.

Plus, for chrissakes, the man asked for gunpowder. Or fertilizer, I guess. He could have been planting a lot of trees as kitten traps.

Modifié par Kawamura, 22 avril 2011 - 04:21 .