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[Dreaming-in-Shadow]

Heidenreich wrote...

signcherie wrote...

Dreaming-in-Shadow wrote...

...am I the only person who wasn't heartbroken by the whole "betrayal" thing?

No, I wasn't either.

I was, later in other playthroughs. In my intial one though, where I ruthlessly went after anders because he was ANDERS and I wanted to be his GIRLFRIEND FOR LIFE... I didn't even SEE it untill I was all "Wait, was that why you wanted me to distract the grand cleric!?". Previous to then I was litterally oblivious.

"... WHY DIDNT YOU JUST TELL ME I WOULD HAVE TOTALLY DONE IT FOR YOU , ANDERS!!!!!1111oneoneone" was my very first Hawke's line of thinking. She was a little revolutionary, and was upset that he was worried for HER. Flemeth told her to jump off that cliff, and she'd chosen the anders-flavored one to jump off of!<3

Out of my two canon Hawkes, I'd say different reactions:

Fem!Hawke (Marian): Helped and despite not feeling betrayed as such, (Anders makes it very clear he's up to something and is pushing you away) she felt sick for helping. Main thing on her mind? Save the mages, argue later. Then came the tears.

M!Hawke: **** we need to get out of Kirkwall NOW. (Doesn't really care, all he wants to do is keep himself and his companions safe)

To be honest, the way I RP Garrett, it'd make more sense for him just to grab Anders and run as far from Kirkwall as possible, the templars and the mages be damned.

Me? I'm not in the game. I don't feel betrayed at all.
A little upset, maybe...

[Tasmen]

Not sure if this has been posted yet, but if it has, so be it... I'm doing it again.

Modifié par Tasmen, 22 avril 2011 - 04:25 .

[Dreaming-in-Shadow]

Tasmen wrote...

Not sure if this has been posted yet, but if it has, so be it... I'm doing it again.

To quote an old friend of mine: "Tis most disturbing."

[YamiSnuffles]

Various evidence throughout the game that Anders, while a healer, is much more than just a healer. Aside from the things I mentioned before...

For one, he is possessed by a spirit of Justice turned Vengeance and it makes him lash out violently:
Anders: When I see templars now, things that have always outraged me, but I could never do anything about... He comes out. And he is no longer my friend Justice. He is a force of vengeance. And he has no grasp of mercy.

For another, he's never hid he was a revolutionary. He also says this:
Anders: Revolutions don't happen peacefully. Should I have told you the truth? There's no one in Kirkwall I wouldn't kill to see mages free.

Also, he asks for the ingredients to gun powder, essentially, and tells you to distract the grand cleric.

I don't know what else to say. If you never saw Anders being potentially dangerous, I guess that's your problem. Maybe you didn't listen to the things he said or maybe you didn't bring him along very often. However, the proof is there many times over. He's a dangerous man and he tells that to Hawke up front.

[kromify]

very disturbing

[Dreaming-in-Shadow]

YamiSnuffles wrote...

Various evidence throughout the game that Anders, while a healer, is much more than just a healer. Aside from the things I mentioned before...

For one, he is possessed by a spirit of Justice turned Vengeance and it makes him lash out violently:
Anders: When I see templars now, things that have always outraged me, but I could never do anything about... He comes out. And he is no longer my friend Justice. He is a force of vengeance. And he has no grasp of mercy.

For another, he's never hid he was a revolutionary. He also says this:
Anders: Revolutions don't happen peacefully. Should I have told you the truth? There's no one in Kirkwall I wouldn't kill to see mages free.

Also, he asks for the ingredients to gun powder, essentially, and tells you to distract the grand cleric.

I don't know what else to say. If you never saw Anders being potentially dangerous, I guess that's your problem. Maybe you didn't listen to the things he said or maybe you didn't bring him along very often. However, the proof is there many times over. He's a dangerous man and he tells that to Hawke up front.

I blame my canon Warden. <_<

[signcherie]

I pretty much keep playing revolutionary Hawkes who aren't all that upset by Anders' actions. They also try and try and TRY to get someone to listen and be willing to change the system peacefully, but by the end of the game the whole war seems pretty inevitable to my Hawkes if there's ever going to be any change, so they just kind of roll with it.

[Dreaming-in-Shadow]

I wonder, if it had been any other character (or Hawke, with no choice but to do so) who blew up the Chantry, would the backlash be as strong?

Hell. What if it had been Varric!?

"I've had it up to here with you sodding humans, and your sodding Templars, and your sodding Mages! You're upseting Bianca damnit!"

Modifié par Dreaming-in-Shadow, 22 avril 2011 - 04:32 .

[Heidenreich]

to be fair I DID play my first play through in two days, with no sleep. Which was intresting because I had to stay up a whole third day because my littlest munchkin isn't in school yet and mom's the only one home during the day

It felt like my poor Hawkette was being snowballed by someone who she 100% believed in, trusted, and loved. She wasn't upset that the grand cleric died, she was upset that he hadn't confided in her, when she would have murder-knifed any templar in her path to making the world perfect for him ;p

I personally was so mad I went and romanced Fenris for 5 straight playthroughs ;p

[kromify]

i think the backlash wouldn't have been as harsh if he had been funnier/nicer

[Heidenreich]

kromify wrote...

i think the backlash wouldn't have been as harsh if he had been funnier/nicer

Psh. Fenris is way meaner then Anders is.. the snark was there, it was just being smothered by Justice, that no-humor bastard! *angryfist*

[Phenerios]

YamiSnuffles wrote...

Various evidence throughout the game that Anders, while a healer, is much more than just a healer. Aside from the things I mentioned before...

For one, he is possessed by a spirit of Justice turned Vengeance and it makes him lash out violently:
Anders: When I see templars now, things that have always outraged me, but I could never do anything about... He comes out. And he is no longer my friend Justice. He is a force of vengeance. And he has no grasp of mercy.

For another, he's never hid he was a revolutionary. He also says this:
Anders: Revolutions don't happen peacefully. Should I have told you the truth? There's no one in Kirkwall I wouldn't kill to see mages free.

Also, he asks for the ingredients to gun powder, essentially, and tells you to distract the grand cleric.

I don't know what else to say. If you never saw Anders being potentially dangerous, I guess that's your problem. Maybe you didn't listen to the things he said or maybe you didn't bring him along very often. However, the proof is there many times over. He's a dangerous man and he tells that to Hawke up front.

  I don't know the ingredients for gunpowder, so  my bad there. And my first time through I usually had Merill, Anders, and Fenris in the group. Fenris usually starts ragging on the mages as soon as they begin to talk. The line you quote is that from after he blows up the Chantry? I did believe that he could control himself. I didn't think he had fallen so far as to commit an act of that scale, especially since I was willing to help him.

   Guess call it naivety. 

[Heidenreich]

Phenerios wrote...

YamiSnuffles wrote...

Various evidence throughout the game that Anders, while a healer, is much more than just a healer. Aside from the things I mentioned before...

For one, he is possessed by a spirit of Justice turned Vengeance and it makes him lash out violently:
Anders: When I see templars now, things that have always outraged me, but I could never do anything about... He comes out. And he is no longer my friend Justice. He is a force of vengeance. And he has no grasp of mercy.

For another, he's never hid he was a revolutionary. He also says this:
Anders: Revolutions don't happen peacefully. Should I have told you the truth? There's no one in Kirkwall I wouldn't kill to see mages free.

Also, he asks for the ingredients to gun powder, essentially, and tells you to distract the grand cleric.

I don't know what else to say. If you never saw Anders being potentially dangerous, I guess that's your problem. Maybe you didn't listen to the things he said or maybe you didn't bring him along very often. However, the proof is there many times over. He's a dangerous man and he tells that to Hawke up front.

  I don't know the ingredients for gunpowder, so  my bad there. And my first time through I usually had Merill, Anders, and Fenris in the group. Fenris usually starts ragging on the mages as soon as they begin to talk. The line you quote is that from after he blows up the Chantry? I did believe that he could control himself. I didn't think he had fallen so far as to commit an act of that scale, especially since I was willing to help him.

   Guess call it naivety. 

That doesn't make him a bad character. It makes him broken beyond the scope of Hawke's ability to fix him. Fenris is mostly fixable.. if you badger merrill enough she's fixable.. even Isabela is fixable.. Anders isn't fixable. He's mentally unstable, which makes his downfall so utterly GLORIOUS. Because, you flail and flail and flail and yell and scream and kick, and Justice still wins, in the end.


And now I've made myself sad. <3

Modifié par Heidenreich, 22 avril 2011 - 04:40 .

[Dunizel]

Dreaming-in-Shadow wrote...

I wonder, if it had been any other character (or Hawke, with no choice but to do so) who blew up the Chantry, would the backlash be as strong?

I think that only if the decision was up to the player, Hawke then, there wouldn't be backlash. 
I feel that the hate comes from the fact that you had no say in the matter, that the Chantry had to explode and you coulnd't do anything because it was a companion who did it. 

If instead of "side with maged/side with templars" the choice was "burn the Circle/burn the Chantry", there wouldn't be nay backlash imo.

[Dreaming-in-Shadow]

Heidenreich wrote...

That doesn't make him a bad character. It makes him broken beyond the scope of Hawke's ability to fix him. Fenris is mostly fixable.. if you badger merrill enough she's fixable.. even Isabela is fixable.. Anders isn't fixable. He's mentally unstable, which makes his downfall so utterly GLORIOUS. Because, you flail and flail and flail and yell and scream and kick, and Justice still wins, in the end.

Is it bad that I'm laughing at the mental images?

[kromify]

the warden could have fixed him. she could do anything

[YamiSnuffles]

Phenerios wrote...


  I don't know the ingredients for gunpowder, so  my bad there. And my first time through I usually had Merill, Anders, and Fenris in the group. Fenris usually starts ragging on the mages as soon as they begin to talk. The line you quote is that from after he blows up the Chantry? I did believe that he could control himself. I didn't think he had fallen so far as to commit an act of that scale, especially since I was willing to help him.

   Guess call it naivety. 

The line I quoted is from before he blows up the Chantry. He says it in his Act 3 "Questioning Beliefs." I don't know if he only says it if you romanced him as I have only beaten the game while romancing Anders. You may also have to question him before distracting the Grand Cleric, which is another thing I always do.

Anyways, I'm not trying to rag on anyone who might have missed it. It's something that develops. Act 1 Anders probably wouldn't have done it, but by Act 3 he and Kirkwall are much worse off.

All I'm trying to say is that he isn't ever pretending to be something he's not. He does a lot of good in Kirkwall, so it can be easy to miss/forget that he's also working on a revolution. Revolutions are rarely peaceful or easy.

Modifié par YamiSnuffles, 22 avril 2011 - 04:44 .

[Inzhuna]

silver-crescent wrote...

Basically the idea is that yes, Anders's state is very much like a case of bipolarity, which makes him feel everything intensely, not only bad things, but also good things, like his love for Hawke.

On a psychological level, if you take the friend path, and do the merge you go mania - he's happier, more driven, but also not afraid of doing what he feels needs to be done.

If you take the rival path, you go depression - he's very miserable but also willing to make up for his mistakes.

Which path is better is ultimately up for the player to decide.

That's the gyst of it.

I'll see if I can post the whole thing tomorrow.

Either way, the impression I got was that the whole thing is just very bittersweet, not the terrible tragedy some people are making it out to be.

Ooh was reading the pages I missed and saw this. Jennifer is so nice to have replied to a fan. I'm not sure if silver-crescent is around, I'm wondering if Jennifer replied about reposting her message here?

[Dreaming-in-Shadow]

kromify wrote...

the warden could have fixed him. she could do anything

My Warden would have.
She would have started by slapping him sensless and dragging him back to Amaranthine by the pony-tail.

Then they would have kicked all Chantry influences out of the Wardens (WTF happened to neutrality!?) and then hunt down whichever son(s)-of-a-****(es) were responsible for taking the cat and mardaring them!!!

(Because seriously, Anders seems most like the old Anders when Nathaniel is involved. must be true love *is shot* XD

[Phenerios]

I have never actually romanced him. Right now on my current playthrough I am trying to romance Fenris while playing a mage. I don't think of him as a bad character, just someone who pissed me off for lying to me about something so big. Isabella I expected her to lie to me. Hell, I half expected to have a cut scene where she is trying to kill me, because it would save her life or something.

[Sialater]

Dreaming-in-Shadow wrote...

kromify wrote...

the warden could have fixed him. she could do anything

My Warden would have.
She would have started by slapping him sensless and dragging him back to Amaranthine by the pony-tail.

Then they would have kicked all Chantry influences out of the Wardens (WTF happened to neutrality!?) and then hunt down whichever son(s)-of-a-****(es) were responsible for taking the cat and mardaring them!!!

(Because seriously, Anders seems most like the old Anders when Nathaniel is involved. must be true love *is shot* XD

This.  I also firmly think Moira and Anders drew straws/played Rock, Paper, Scissors, Lizard, Spock to see who got Justice.

[Dreaming-in-Shadow]

Sialater wrote...

Dreaming-in-Shadow wrote...

kromify wrote...

the warden could have fixed him. she could do anything

My Warden would have.
She would have started by slapping him sensless and dragging him back to Amaranthine by the pony-tail.

Then they would have kicked all Chantry influences out of the Wardens (WTF happened to neutrality!?) and then hunt down whichever son(s)-of-a-****(es) were responsible for taking the cat and mardaring them!!!

(Because seriously, Anders seems most like the old Anders when Nathaniel is involved. must be true love *is shot* XD

This.  I also firmly think Moira and Anders drew straws/played Rock, Paper, Scissors, Lizard, Spock to see who got Justice.

lol. "Damn. Two out of three?"

I don't think my canon Warden (Mahariel) could have done that. Not sure she would have... (Grey Wardens remain neutral and all that sh*t)
Amell's a bleeding coward who bows to the templar's every whim.
I'm not sure about Surana though... Maybe...
(which is funny, because I always imagined him as mentally unstable, DA2 revealed he shows firm signs of being an abomination XD)

Modifié par Dreaming-in-Shadow, 22 avril 2011 - 04:56 .

[Dunizel]

Dreaming-in-Shadow wrote...

(Because seriously, Anders seems most like the old Anders when Nathaniel is involved. must be true love *is shot* XD

Must be, it is! Look how he talks about Nate with Delilah, and how they still joke like old friends...they are adorable.

Erm, seriously, I think that he misses the time in  Amaranthine with our Warden. In my ending he always considered Vigil's Keep his home.
Oh, how I wish things stayed like that...In my happy place, somewhere in my head, Nate is even the Warden Commander, with Anders at his side of course, while our Warden goes who knows where.

I really think Anders misses a family, that's why he grew fond of the life in the keep, and that's why he clings to Hawke later on

Side note, I thought Pounce-a-Lot ws with Delilah, or maybe her son, but seems not...he would have asked about him!

Modifié par Dunizel, 22 avril 2011 - 04:57 .

[LastFadingSmile]

Dreaming-in-Shadow wrote...


My Warden would have.
She would have started by slapping him sensless and dragging him back to Amaranthine by the pony-tail.

Then they would have kicked all Chantry influences out of the Wardens (WTF happened to neutrality!?) and then hunt down whichever son(s)-of-a-****(es) were responsible for taking the cat and mardaring them!!!

(Because seriously, Anders seems most like the old Anders when Nathaniel is involved. must be true love *is shot* XD

I've said this before, but I think just getting him the frak out of Kirkwall would have done a lot for his relative mental stability.  <_<

Stupid Hellmouths.

[YamiSnuffles]

Well, it took extra long because I cannot argue and draw at the same time.

The terror majesty that is Ginders. And this time he gets to be a true ginger, because he couldn't be a Weasley any other way.

Modifié par YamiSnuffles, 22 avril 2011 - 05:00 .