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[ipgd]

I don't think it's about the possibility of redemption so much as the acknowledgment that his actions are something that require redemption. He'll obviously never be able to make up for it, and his agony is wasted on things he will never be able to change, but it's basically a "is it better to know the truth and be miserable or be blissfully ignorant?" thing.

[silver-crescent]

I dunno, he hardly seemed to think what he did was a good thing, just a necessary bad thing.

[Ryzaki]

silver-crescent wrote...
Jennifer Hepler's reply:

I'm glad you enjoyed the character so much. Obviously, in a fantasy setting the real world metaphors will never be exact, but I certainly always thought of Anders as being essentially bipolar and I tried to use as much real world psychology as I could (giving away of personal possessions before planning to commit suicide, etc.). I think his romance captures a lot of the joy and pain of dating someone bipolar -- he feels everything in a big way, so his love is huge and all-encompassing, as are his hates, including his self-loathing. It takes work to maintain a relationship with him, and ultimately, Hawke has to decide if it's worth it, knowing that these are burdens that will always haunt them. 

As far as friendship and rivalry, to me, the friendship path is about supporting Anders in his decisions, both to merge with Justice and everything that stems from that. Therefore, he is generally happier (more manic), and more convinced of his delusions, but is arguably a worse person (more willing to do bad things). The rivalry path is about making him see the error of his ways, so he ends up suffering more and tending more to the depressive side, but is arguably a better person who wants to make up for what he's done. Which is the "right" way is very much up to the individual player.

I cut off some bits at the beginning/ending, but nothing relevant, just greetings and whatnot.

*squees* 
I had a feeling it was something like this. And my love of the rivalrymance has only increased.  

Thanks silver-crescent. 

I had a feeling it was about redemption based off the youtube of the bugged dialogue where he mentions stopping the war before it begins. 

And there's nothing better than a tale of redemption with lots of suffering on the way. <3

Modifié par Ryzaki, 25 avril 2011 - 08:56 .

[SurelyForth]

ipgd wrote...

I don't think it's about the possibility of redemption so much as the acknowledgment that his actions are something that require redemption. He'll obviously never be able to make up for it, and his agony is wasted on things he will never be able to change, but it's basically a "is it better to know the truth and be miserable or be blissfully ignorant?" thing.

Well, he knows what he did was an injustice even in the friendship path, which is why he's willing to die for it. But he sees it as an "ends justifies the means....hopefully" thing. So he's not blissfully ignorant if he's cognizant of the possible ramifications of his actions.

And I don't know how it fits together. Shouldn't a rivaled Anders feel that he doesn't deserve redemption? If he knows what he did was terrible, from merging w. Justice onward, and he's that self-loathing, shouldn't he be Alistairing his own Loghain? Meaning refusing himself the opportunity for redemption. Not anything...perverse.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 25 avril 2011 - 08:57 .

[upsettingshorts]

Ryzaki wrote...
I had a feeling it was something like this. And my love of the rivalrymance has only increased. 

From what I understand you're very interested in pushing the limits of Hawke's sadistic misanthropy, that doesn't surprise me.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 25 avril 2011 - 08:56 .

[Purposeof-Flight]

Oh god.
I wandered out of the thread and my heart promptly broke all over the place.
I didn't realize SO MANY PEOPLE hate DA2.

[Ryzaki]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
I had a feeling it was something like this. And my love of the rivalrymance has only increased. 

From what I understand you're very interested in pushing the limits of Hawke's sadistic misanthropy, that doesn't surprise me.

Uh...no. Has nothing to do with hatred. 

[Rinji the Bearded]

I can never justify making Anders fight with the Templars. It's not like he suddenly changes his mind about the entire issue, it seems like siding with the Templars is something Hawke forces him to do to satisfy Hawke's desire to redeem him in his/her eyes. Thedas will always hate him.

And what about if you side with the mages in a rivalry romance? He pretty much turns out the same way as he did in the friendship romance. So are we saying that choosing the Templar side is better if only to redeem Anders?

Still in the friendship camp.

[upsettingshorts]

Ryzaki wrote...

Heh...no. Has nothing to do with hatred.

It doesn't?  If it did that would at least make some sense.

[Ryzaki]

RinjiRenee wrote...

I can never justify making Anders fight with the Templars. It's not like he suddenly changes his mind about the entire issue, it seems like siding with the Templars is something Hawke forces him to do to satisfy Hawke's desire to redeem him in his/her eyes. Thedas will always hate him.

And what about if you side with the mages in a rivalry romance? He pretty much turns out the same way as he did in the friendship romance. So are we saying that choosing the Templar side is better if only to redeem Anders?

Still in the friendship camp.

I don't think so. He and Justice will still be fighting each other even if you side with the mages. I'm pretty sure there would still be unique dialogue for that event as well. 

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Heh...no. Has nothing to do with hatred.

It doesn't?  If it did that would at least make some sense.

If you don't get it there's no point in explaining. You seem intent on viewing it in the worst light possible so *shrugs*. To each their own. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 25 avril 2011 - 09:00 .

[ipgd]

It's not just specifically the chantry, but his whole merging with Justice and the extremism he's pushed towards over the course of the game. Friendship Anders is aware of the injustice of his actions on a lower level, but he's still pretty much convinced that what he's doing is ultimately right and that he needs to go to extreme lengths for The Greater Good (which I personally agree with, but I get the rivalry path).

SurelyForth wrote...

And I don't know how it fits together. Shouldn't a rivaled Anders feel that he doesn't deserve redemption? If he knows what he did was terrible, from merging w. Justice onward, and he's that self-loathing, shouldn't he be Alistairing his own Loghain? Meaning refusing himself the opportunity for redemption. Not anything...perverse.

Perhaps "atonement" is a better word. Either way, there's no way for him to make up for his mistakes, but he's acknowledging that they are in fact mistakes in the rivalry path.

[Ninche]

Amondra wrote...

 OMG OMG! Line art for the commission I had done for my fic I am working on! I can't wait for it to be colored.
http://sweetcandyrain.deviantart.com/  Thats who did it.  She is such a great artist!

- loveliness snip-

Ahh she is SO talanted I don't know if I want to kiss her or kill her!  

And about Hepler's clarification: It actually is quite... comforting. To be honest once the initial horror of what Anders did lessened, I no longer cared about him being a "good" or a "bad" person, but I cared alot about whether I was making the right decisions for him - I thought that rivalmancing him could be more healthy in a way, and I felt like I wasn't doing what was best for him by friendmancing him. (Because unlike him I am a weak weak person and I can't do what's necessary ) BUT Hepler's messege basically confirmed that friendmancing him makes him HAPPY, and since this is all I care about I feel good about life 

The Keanu/Anders creature FREAKS ME OUT tho!  I get chills every time I look at it  him. 

[Purposeof-Flight]

I just don't understand it...
See, I can understand the appeal of seeing Anders drop his cause for Hawke...but I thought it was made abundantly clear at the end that "Hawke will never be the most important thing in his life".
I would think Hawke would embrace that, instead of forcing Anders to drop his cause.

Who is Anders without his cause now?

[upsettingshorts]

Ryzaki wrote...

If you don't get it there's no point in explaining.

Can you?

Ryzaki wrote...

To each their own.

In terms of my interpretation, I don't see the Rivalpath-Templar ending as anything other than entirely negative, for everyone involved, most of all Anders. 

Purposeof-Flight wrote...

Who is Anders without his cause now?

A fugitive and murderer.  Which is how some would view him with his cause, without it, he has no defenders.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 25 avril 2011 - 09:03 .

[silver-crescent]

RinjiRenee wrote...

I can never justify making Anders fight with the Templars. It's not like he suddenly changes his mind about the entire issue, it seems like siding with the Templars is something Hawke forces him to do to satisfy Hawke's desire to redeem him in his/her eyes. Thedas will always hate him.

And what about if you side with the mages in a rivalry romance? He pretty much turns out the same way as he did in the friendship romance. So are we saying that choosing the Templar side is better if only to redeem Anders?

Still in the friendship camp.

I did ask if there was supposed to be a different rivalmance ending if you side with the Mages, but I think JH missunderstood my question.

It's highly likely there isn't one anyway. Fully rivalling Anders and then siding with the Mages would be a totally out of character thing to do.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Ryzaki wrote...

I don't think so. He and Justice will still be fighting each other even if you side with the mages. I'm pretty sure there would still be unique dialogue for that event as well.

There is nothing that has indicated that as of yet.  You can complete a rivalry romanced Anders if you side with the mages.

[thebrute7]

Purposeof-Flight wrote...

Oh god.
I wandered out of the thread and my heart promptly broke all over the place.
I didn't realize SO MANY PEOPLE hate DA2.

Don't forget forums have a multi-thousand percent increase in *****ers who just want to make people angry.  I suspect the bulk of people who bought the game don't hate it.  Dissapointed?  Yes.  Hate? No.  Heck I am dissapointed with DA II as a game.  As a story I adore it, but as a game?  Severely dissapointed. 

of course I also won a free copy so I can't really complain

[YamiSnuffles]

SurelyForth wrote...

ipgd wrote...

I don't think it's about the possibility of redemption so much as the acknowledgment that his actions are something that require redemption. He'll obviously never be able to make up for it, and his agony is wasted on things he will never be able to change, but it's basically a "is it better to know the truth and be miserable or be blissfully ignorant?" thing.

Well, he knows what he did was an injustice even in the friendship path, which is why he's willing to die for it. But he sees it as an "ends justifies the means....hopefully" thing. So he's not blissfully ignorant if he's cognizant of the possible ramifications of his actions.

And I don't know how it fits together. Shouldn't a rivaled Anders feel that he doesn't deserve redemption? If he knows what he did was terrible, from merging w. Justice onward, and he's that self-loathing, shouldn't he be Alistairing his own Loghain? Meaning refusing himself the opportunity for redemption. Not anything...perverse.

Yeah, I didn't see friend Anders as ignorant of the evil he was causing. It seemed more like he thought it was a necessary evil. So, wrong, but something he had to do. He doesn't feel as guilty as a rival Anders would because rival Anders doesn't believe in the cause in the same way thus wouldn't try to justify the bombing.

I also agree with what you said about redemption.

[Ryzaki]

Purposeof-Flight wrote...

I just don't understand it...
See, I can understand the appeal of seeing Anders drop his cause for Hawke...but I thought it was made abundantly clear at the end that "Hawke will never be the most important thing in his life".
I would think Hawke would embrace that, instead of forcing Anders to drop his cause.

Who is Anders without his cause now?

I don't want Anders to stop crusading for mage freedom. Even my most pro-chantry people at the end of the rivalry mance see that some mages deserve to be free, some are good people, some are horrible people (those are the ones who should be watched). No one should be torn away from their parents and told that they're evil day in and day out. But to them full out freedom was never going to be the answer. They wanted Anders to acknowledge that some mages are better off in circles. Some aren't but some are. 

I want him to do it in a way that doesn't involve him and him alone making decisions for mages as a whole. 

His cause to me was too...extreme.Hawke wanted him to temper the views a little. To work with other people, to let Hawke help him instead of trying to bottle it up inside. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 25 avril 2011 - 09:08 .

[thebrute7]

silver-crescent wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

I can never justify making Anders fight with the Templars. It's not like he suddenly changes his mind about the entire issue, it seems like siding with the Templars is something Hawke forces him to do to satisfy Hawke's desire to redeem him in his/her eyes. Thedas will always hate him.

And what about if you side with the mages in a rivalry romance? He pretty much turns out the same way as he did in the friendship romance. So are we saying that choosing the Templar side is better if only to redeem Anders?

Still in the friendship camp.

I did ask if there was supposed to be a different rivalmance ending if you side with the Mages, but I think JH missunderstood my question.

It's highly likely there isn't one anyway. Fully rivalling Anders and then siding with the Mages would be a totally out of character thing to do.

Why?  It's not about what he did for me.  it's about Meredith Annulling the Circle.  Even in a rivalry you could easily prefer to fight Meredith rather than see the Circle Annulled.  I don't see how A Rivalry or Friendship with Anders would affect your decision at the end. 

[upsettingshorts]

Ryzaki wrote...

Hawke wanted him to temper the views a little. 

Don't you see?  It's too late.

[Ryzaki]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

I don't think so. He and Justice will still be fighting each other even if you side with the mages. I'm pretty sure there would still be unique dialogue for that event as well.

There is nothing that has indicated that as of yet.  You can complete a rivalry romanced Anders if you side with the mages.

It's bugged. 

I'm pretty sure all of the dialogue leading up the scene (including JUstice blowing up the Chantry) happens before you even decide who to side with. It would make no sense if just because you sided with the mages Anders acts as though he and Justice aren't fighting for control. 

[silver-crescent]

thebrute7 wrote...

Purposeof-Flight wrote...

Oh god.
I wandered out of the thread and my heart promptly broke all over the place.
I didn't realize SO MANY PEOPLE hate DA2.

Don't forget forums have a multi-thousand percent increase in *****ers who just want to make people angry.  I suspect the bulk of people who bought the game don't hate it.  Dissapointed?  Yes.  Hate? No.  Heck I am dissapointed with DA II as a game.  As a story I adore it, but as a game?  Severely dissapointed. 

of course I also won a free copy so I can't really complain

The "general discussion" is pretty much anti-DA2 central atm. I bet most people who actually like the game moved on to a different sections/etc. I really don't get the point. If you don't like the game, just leave your opinion on one of the review/criticism threads. Constant whinning isn't gonna achieve anything.

And yeah there definitely are a few trolls who keep posting inflamatory threads in there, as I said a few pages back, they've been doing it ever since the game came out, I can recognize the usernames already.

[signcherie]

Ms. Hepler is totally awesome for taking the time to respond to fans' inquiries. Especially during her maternity leave.

[silver-crescent]

thebrute7 wrote...

silver-crescent wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

I can never justify making Anders fight with the Templars. It's not like he suddenly changes his mind about the entire issue, it seems like siding with the Templars is something Hawke forces him to do to satisfy Hawke's desire to redeem him in his/her eyes. Thedas will always hate him.

And what about if you side with the mages in a rivalry romance? He pretty much turns out the same way as he did in the friendship romance. So are we saying that choosing the Templar side is better if only to redeem Anders?

Still in the friendship camp.

I did ask if there was supposed to be a different rivalmance ending if you side with the Mages, but I think JH missunderstood my question.

It's highly likely there isn't one anyway. Fully rivalling Anders and then siding with the Mages would be a totally out of character thing to do.

Why?  It's not about what he did for me.  it's about Meredith Annulling the Circle.  Even in a rivalry you could easily prefer to fight Meredith rather than see the Circle Annulled.  I don't see how A Rivalry or Friendship with Anders would affect your decision at the end. 

Well, assuming people have been going pro-templar or pro-mage the whole game (and thus rivaling or befriending Anders) chances are they're gonna stick with their chosen side until the end.