57019 réponses à ce sujet

[mellifera]

ipgd wrote...

yukidama wrote...

That just makes it even stranger that he wouldn't come out at some point. Like, if Anders could maintain control over a raging Justice, couldn't he at some point gone to the Chantry and removed the bomb? How much time passed between then and the bombing that he is so able to control him after basically destroying everything they had worked for?

It's possible the ****tiness of their situation wasn't actually real to him until it happened, and he's exerting a stupendous amount of willpower to stay in control in a way he hadn't before. I doubt that could last very long, though.

This is true, but to me it just seems that the way Anders basically begs you to kill him and says that he has to die shows just how tenuous his grasp on that control is. That at some point during the entire ending sequence Justice doesn't go ape****  seems.. well, I dont' suppose it is impossible but it's kind of "Eh, okay". There just needed to me a lot more conflict and drama to make that ending work well for me.

[upsettingshorts]

Dreaming-in-Shadow wrote...

Other small examples exist.

I don't see how it's evidence of anything other than how he can still occasionally enjoy things. 

"Be happy" seems more like a state of mind, and I don't see it as one that is compatible with what Anders has become.

[silver-crescent]

Batteries wrote...

There is no "save Anders!" option or a "better for Anders!" option in this game.
Whatever path you go down, he's still going to be possessed and if the flow of the game is anything to go by, Vengeace is going to win.
Unless a third option decides to magically present itself, he has no happily ever after.

It's too late.

But they merge on the friendship path, even JH said so. At that point, Justice has become pretty much passive. There's hardly any more harm he can do.

[Ryzaki]

Batteries wrote...

There is no "save Anders!" option or a "better for Anders!" option in this game.
Whatever path you go down, he's still going to be possessed and if the flow of the game is anything to go by, Vengeace is going to win.
Unless a third option decides to magically present itself, he has no happily ever after.

It's too late.

Then there is a better path. 

Killing him. 

Anders doesn't completely die dominated by Vengeance and Justice is no longer trapped. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 25 avril 2011 - 09:47 .

[upsettingshorts]

silver-crescent wrote...

Only if by Anders you mean DA:A Anders, and that's not even the case anyway. Unless you agree to the "DA2 Anders is actually Justice controlling his body the whole time" idea or something.

I subscribe to the following theory:

DAA Anders is gone.  DAA Justice is gone.

DA2 the character is Vengeance, who goes by "Anders" and refers to his self-righteous anger as "Justice."  This is a simplified take on a complicated idea that a mortal cannot totally embody a virtue, and a virtue  cannot remain intact when it must view things through a biased mortal's perspective.   Justice plus bias is vengeance.

I don't buy the interpretation that Anders or Justice is capable of existing as we knew them as long as they are irreversibly corrupted by each other.

Whatever aspect of his now fractured personality "wins out" depends on Hawke.  But Anders and Justice as we knew them are gone.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 25 avril 2011 - 09:47 .

[0o-Constance-o0]

You know, during the frienship romance during the Alrik quest in act 2 when you have to go and find evidence that there's a Tranquil Solution, you don't have to give Anders the evidence stright away.

If you keep talking to him while ignoring the option to give him the piece of paper, he starts going on about how Vengance is taking over and he sounds so terrified about what he'll do next. It was all very interesting. I wish there was a vid for it, but the agressive options are mainly about how he should find a way to be rid of the spirit and how he's an abomination and what not, while the diplomatic options are telling him he should make himself an example of how mages can be awesum, which really didn't make sense to me.

Now I understand why Jennifer meant when she said that frienship with him means you're really just accepting his fate. And that fate is losing himself to Vengance

[Purposeof-Flight]

Ryzaki wrote...

Batteries wrote...

There is no "save Anders!" option or a "better for Anders!" option in this game.
Whatever path you go down, he's still going to be possessed and if the flow of the game is anything to go by, Vengeace is going to win.
Unless a third option decides to magically present itself, he has no happily ever after.

It's too late.

Then there is a better path. 

Killing him. 

This thread is so full of sunshiney thoughts today.

[highcastle]

Dunizel wrote...

I liked both romances, but I have to admit I prefer an Anders who is fully aware of his situation and recognizes it, instead of thinking everything is allright with his spirit possession problem. It might be more painful, but if I have a problem I'm happy to know that I have a person at my side fighting it with me. Anders has Hawke for this. Maybe killing him is an act of mercy, but I like to think he will understand that even try to fix that mess side by side with Hawke in whatever possible way, has its value. 

Anders recognizes he's out of control on both paths. There's a reason he gives up the cause of mages for 3 years after Dissent. I'd argue he's even more unstable on the rivalry path, as he's subject to blackouts. These don't seem to happen on the friendship path. Granted, his writer seems to disagree with me. Quick, what critic was it that said author intent doesn't actually matter?

[Rinji the Bearded]

Ryzaki wrote...

Batteries wrote...

There is no "save Anders!" option or a "better for Anders!" option in this game.
Whatever path you go down, he's still going to be possessed and if the flow of the game is anything to go by, Vengeace is going to win.
Unless a third option decides to magically present itself, he has no happily ever after.

It's too late.

Then there is a better path. 

Killing him. 

Anders doesn't completely die dominated by Vengeance and Justice is no longer trapped. 

Anders WANTS to die at the end of the rivalry path, and really him asking Hawke to kill him was one of the saner things the did in the entire game.

[Ryzaki]

0o-Constance-o0 wrote...

You know, during the frienship romance during the Alrik quest in act 2 when you have to go and find evidence that there's a Tranquil Solution, you don't have to give Anders the evidence stright away.

If you keep talking to him while ignoring the option to give him the piece of paper, he starts going on about how Vengance is taking over and he sounds so terrified about what he'll do next. It was all very interesting. I wish there was a vid for it, but the agressive options are mainly about how he should find a way to be rid of the spirit and how he's an abomination and what not, while the diplomatic options are telling him he should make himself an example of how mages can be awesum, which really didn't make sense to me.

Now I understand why Jennifer meant when she said that frienship with him means you're really just accepting his fate. And that fate is losing himself to Vengance

What were the snark options? 

Most of my rivalrymancers are aggressive. I have a snarker but he hasn't gotten up to Dissent yet. 

RinjiRenee wrote...
Anders WANTS to die at the end of the rivalry path, and really him asking Hawke to kill him was one of the saner things the did in the entire game.

Oh I know that. I actually think killing him on both paths is the kindest thing you can do for him. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 25 avril 2011 - 09:49 .

[kromify]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

kromify wrote...

 but i want anders to be happy... :crying:

Find a time machine, go back and prevent the merger with Justice.  Then you might have a chance.

*whips out the TARDIS*

oooh that last episode was amazing and creepier than dr who usually is!!! loved it!

[0o-Constance-o0]

Purposeof-Flight wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Batteries wrote...

There is no "save Anders!" option or a "better for Anders!" option in this game.
Whatever path you go down, he's still going to be possessed and if the flow of the game is anything to go by, Vengeace is going to win.
Unless a third option decides to magically present itself, he has no happily ever after.

It's too late.

Then there is a better path. 

Killing him. 

This thread is so full of sunshiney thoughts today.

MY TEARS HAVE BEEN REPLACED WITH BLOOD!!!

*emoemo*

[kromify]

gah this thread's too fast!

[silver-crescent]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

silver-crescent wrote...

Only if by Anders you mean DA:A Anders, and that's not even the case anyway. Unless you agree to the "DA2 Anders is actually Justice controlling his body the whole time" idea or something.

I subscribe to the following theory:

DAA Anders is gone.  DAA Justice is gone.

DA2 the character is Vengeance, who goes by "Anders" and refers to his self-righteous anger as "Justice."  This is a simplified take on a complicated idea that a mortal cannot totally embody a virtue, and a virtue  cannot remain intact when it must view things through a biased mortal's perspective.   Justice plus bias is vengeance.

I don't buy the interpretation that Anders or Justice is capable of existing as we knew them as long as they are irreversibly corrupted by each other.

Whatever aspect of his now fractured personality "wins out" depends on Hawke.  But Anders and Justice as we knew them are gone.

You can see it that way if you want, but the truth is that that's not what either the game or Jennifer Hepler's comments point to at all.

[upsettingshorts]

silver-crescent wrote...

You can see it that way if you want, but the truth is that that's not what either the game or Jennifer Hepler's comments point to at all.

The game absolutely does.  And I can see it jiving just fine with Hepler's post.  I'm just using the terms Vengeance/Anders/Justice in a way that explains my views simply.  

Put another simple way:

Anders: Ego
Vengeance: Id
Justice: Superego

FriendPath:  Successfully reconcile the Ego and the Id.
RivalPath: Fail to reconcile the Ego and Id, Id assumes direct control.

Sure, its a semi-archaic Freudian interpretation, but then we're not talking about a real person with a real brain.  In terms of a fictional character it makes plenty of sense.  But it's not as if we can remove Anders new Id and give him his old one back.  It's gone.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 25 avril 2011 - 09:54 .

[Dasha Dreyson]

kromify wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

kromify wrote...

 but i want anders to be happy... :crying:

Find a time machine, go back and prevent the merger with Justice.  Then you might have a chance.

*whips out the TARDIS*

oooh that last episode was amazing and creepier than dr who usually is!!! loved it!

I'm sure I haven't seen it yet. I'm going through first season of Matt Smith.

I'll leave light hearted humor right here. 

[ipgd]

Dunizel wrote...

I did both friendly and rivalry path. I still fail to see how some people think that the rivalry aims at breaking Anders and make him a wretch.

I certainly wouldn't say that's the aim of the rivalry path, but it's definitely the ultimate result.

The problem with it is that he only realizes he's been wrong after it's far, far too late to fix it. I'd go as far as to say rivalry Anders really can't continue to live in any functional capacity (for the templar ending, anyway, though the guilt and/or Vengeance is just as likely to eat him alive in the long run on the mage end), but it's debatable whether it's better he dies, miserable, with genuine remorse for his actions, or continues on believing everything he's done is ultimately justifable.

[Jean]

silver-crescent wrote...

Batteries wrote...

There is no "save Anders!" option or a "better for Anders!" option in this game.
Whatever path you go down, he's still going to be possessed and if the flow of the game is anything to go by, Vengeace is going to win.
Unless a third option decides to magically present itself, he has no happily ever after.

It's too late.

But they merge on the friendship path, even JH said so. At that point, Justice has become pretty much passive. There's hardly any more harm he can do.

In my opinion I do think he's more dangerous after the fact on the friendship path, but until we see what comes after the end of DAII it's nothing more than just my own opinion.
I'm ready for some DLC taking place after the game now plz

[Dreaming-in-Shadow]

On the whole "Circle" mess, I think the Circle needs changing from within.

Mages like Amell/Surana or mage!Hawke who do good in the world can help change it from the exterior, by working to calm the Chantry's fears and showing that mages don't need to be the enemy.

I think the Circle should focus less on controlling mages, and more on teaching Templar-Mage coexistence.

There can be worse places to be than the circle. Fiona anyone?
Anyway. The circle is a safe place for mages to grow up and learn to control themselves, but after that, then what? They're locked away forever? I'd sooner die, personally.7
If they were just given a little freedom... a watchful templar escort when visiting the external world maybe? Family visits...

Of course the Isolationist methods don't work either. Then you get Tevinter (which Feynriel mentioned showed him why the Templars feared mages.) which was the cause of this mess. Not to mention individuals like Morrigan (I don't think she was all that happy, really...).

[kromify]

he might be more dangerous on friendship BUT NOBODY'S TOUCHING MY ANDERS... ahem

[Purposeof-Flight]

You guys need a laugh.

[Ryzaki]

Morrigan was raised by Flemeth (whatever flemeth was) I don't think she could've had a happy childhood.

Though I really want to know what Flemeth is. She knew Anders was an abomination just by looking at him. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 25 avril 2011 - 09:55 .

[YamiSnuffles]

highcastle wrote...
-snip-
I'm wandering off-topic here. I guess the point I'm trying to make is twofold: 1) it's sad that rivaling Anders means he assumes you're pro-templar; it would be nice to see him reacting just to your condemnation of Justice and not to mages as a whole, and 2) it's a little scary to think siding with the templars might be the more morally just stance. I might be reading too much into this. It's quite possible I am. This is what studying Lit does to you.

I agree that it would be nice if there was some more variance in the friendship/rivalry scale. There are a few instances where the game assumes you take a certain stance, even if your actions speak to the contrary. For example, Merrill ended up as 100% friendship with me because I supported mages. Because of this, she also assumes I support her whole mirror debacle, even though I never help her with it and every conversation I have with her shows I dissaprove of what she's doing/how she's doing it.

Especially with Anders, I think with it would be nice if there was a bit more finesse considering how profound an effect it has on him.

Modifié par YamiSnuffles, 25 avril 2011 - 09:55 .

[kromify]

@ dreaming-in-shadow i don't get your fiona reference...?

ps i never get tired of the kitty cat vid 

Modifié par kromify, 25 avril 2011 - 09:57 .

[Ryzaki]

Batteries wrote...
In my opinion I do think he's more dangerous after the fact on the friendship path, but until we see what comes after the end of DAII it's nothing more than just my own opinion.
I'm ready for some DLC taking place after the game now plz

Expansion would be preferred over DLC. 

Unless said DLC is LOTSB quality.