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[Dreaming-in-Shadow]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

kromify wrote...

 but i want anders to be happy... :crying:

Find a time machine, go back and prevent the merger with Justice.  Then you might have a chance.

*whips out the TARDIS*

AtreiyaN7, the Doctor just called, he wants his ship back.
Or are you going to save the world from the creepy new things

[Dreaming-in-Shadow]

kromify wrote...

@ dreaming-in-shadow i don't get your fiona reference...?

Fiona, the elven mage from the Calling?

She was a slave. She was repeatedly raped and e.t.c.
I fail to see how the Circle can be worse than that (provided the Orlesian templars aren't just as bad)

[Tyrium]

YamiSnuffles wrote...

yukidama wrote...

Yeah, I would buy the whole "he wants to make up for what he's done' thing if he weren't still possessed. Not doubting his personal motivations as much as that there is still a spirit inside him and it's not going to magically go away because Anders ~~feels real bad~~ about it. Especially when it can assume directy control to a point where he blows up a damn building. If it's just magically fixed because Anders is remorseful? Meh.

This, pretty much. Especially if the rivalry path leaves him depressed, it seems like it would be even harder for him to fight against Justice. I dunno.

Bit late to the party, but yeah, I agree. He's lost so much of himself on the  rivalry path, with the blackouts etc, especially with the romance. In friendship, he's still Anders, and Justice only comes out in circumstances in which my Hawke was pretty much screaming anyway. I'd argue that he's a better person on friendship.

[Dreaming-in-Shadow]

0o-Constance-o0 wrote...

Purposeof-Flight wrote...

This thread is so full of sunshiney thoughts today.

MY TEARS HAVE BEEN REPLACED WITH BLOOD!!!

*emoemo*

'The darkness of the Anders Thread has seeped into my soul! The world is dead! My heart is black! Alas! Woe! Woe!'

[Jean]

YamiSnuffles wrote...

highcastle wrote...
-snip-
I'm wandering off-topic here. I guess the point I'm trying to make is twofold: 1) it's sad that rivaling Anders means he assumes you're pro-templar; it would be nice to see him reacting just to your condemnation of Justice and not to mages as a whole, and 2) it's a little scary to think siding with the templars might be the more morally just stance. I might be reading too much into this. It's quite possible I am. This is what studying Lit does to you.

I agree that it would be nice if there was some more variance in the friendship/rivalry scale. There are a few instances where the game assumes you take a certain stance, even if your actions speak to the contrary. For example, Merrill ended up as 100% friendship with me because I supported mages. Because of this, she also assumes I support her whole mirror debacle, even though I never help her with it and every conversation I have with her shows I dissaprove of what she's doing/how she's doing it.

Especially with Anders, I think with it would be nice if there was a bit more finesse considering how profound an effect it has on him.

Maybe using both the rivalry/friendship system and the approval/disapproval metre could help mediate that?

EDIT

Actually, that sounds like it'd just make it more complicated.

Modifié par Batteries, 25 avril 2011 - 10:04 .

[highcastle]

Dreaming-in-Shadow wrote...

On the whole "Circle" mess, I think the Circle needs changing from within.

Mages like Amell/Surana or mage!Hawke who do good in the world can help change it from the exterior, by working to calm the Chantry's fears and showing that mages don't need to be the enemy.

I think the Circle should focus less on controlling mages, and more on teaching Templar-Mage coexistence.

There can be worse places to be than the circle. Fiona anyone?
Anyway. The circle is a safe place for mages to grow up and learn to control themselves, but after that, then what? They're locked away forever? I'd sooner die, personally.7
If they were just given a little freedom... a watchful templar escort when visiting the external world maybe? Family visits...

Of course the Isolationist methods don't work either. Then you get Tevinter (which Feynriel mentioned showed him why the Templars feared mages.) which was the cause of this mess. Not to mention individuals like Morrigan (I don't think she was all that happy, really...).

But the Circle's not a safe place for mages to grow up. Not when there are templars like Alrik who make them Tranquil and rape them. Not when they face losing their minds if they don't pass their finals. Not when the templars have the authority to imprison them in solitary confinement (I'm a criminology student in addition to a lit student, and I posted a while back about the psychological ramifications of solitary; in short, it's not a happy place and it tends to accentuate the negative qualities you go in with).

Honestly, I don't think the Circle can change from within at this point. It has a sordid reputation among the mages, a history too steeped in abuses to ever fully escape from them. I don't think blowing up the Chantry was the right answer, either, but that's what happened. After that, there really can't be any going back. Templars are just going to see mages as more violent, with a greater potential for radicalism and evil than ever before. They're going to crack down harder, abuses will be more severe, and the lot for mages will get worse. For their part, mages have seen the Chantry and the Circle is not infallible. They're going to fight back.

I just don't see how anyone's going to be able to do a simple restructure at this point. I think the whole system needs to be overhauled. Mages should be allowed some form of self-policing instead of being subject to templar oversight in all matters. And those who provide outside oversight should at least view their charges as humans (and elves). Cullen made it clear he didn't think that's the case. When you dehumanize your charges, it makes it easier to victimize them. Again, the whole culture surrounding this issue needs to change.

[Ryzaki]

Dreaming-in-Shadow wrote...

0o-Constance-o0 wrote...

Purposeof-Flight wrote...

This thread is so full of sunshiney thoughts today.

MY TEARS HAVE BEEN REPLACED WITH BLOOD!!!

*emoemo*

'The darkness of the Anders Thread has seeped into my soul! The world is dead! My heart is black! Alas! Woe! Woe!'

Crawling in my skin....These wounds they will not heal. 

[Dreaming-in-Shadow]

Batteries wrote...

Maybe using both the rivalry/friendship system and the approval/disapproval metre could help mediate that?

Bioware, are you reading this?

[upsettingshorts]

I don't see how Alrik indicts the whole Circle/Templar system when he acted alone - or at least with a small cadre - and his plan was shot down by everyone, and I'm entirely certain he didn't include, "...and then rape them after" in his formal proposal either.  They still declined the Tranquil solution. 

Furthermore I don't see how the Kirkwall Circle is good evidence of anything other than the fact having a Circle in Kirkwall is a really, really bad idea.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 25 avril 2011 - 10:06 .

[YamiSnuffles]

I need to get dinner, so I'll just spaz as a way of bowing out.

[Ryzaki]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I don't see how Alrik indicts the whole Circle/Templar system when he acted alone - or at least with a small cadre - and his plan was shot down by everyone.

Furthermore I don't see how the Kirkwall Circle is good evidence of anything other than the fact having a Circle in Kirkwall is a really, really bad idea.

Now this I agree with. 

I wonder what genius came up with that idea. 

[AtreiyaN7]

silver-crescent wrote...

Batteries wrote...

There is no "save Anders!" option or a "better for Anders!" option in this game.
Whatever path you go down, he's still going to be possessed and if the flow of the game is anything to go by, Vengeace is going to win.
Unless a third option decides to magically present itself, he has no happily ever after.

It's too late.

But they merge on the friendship path, even JH said so. At that point, Justice has become pretty much passive. There's hardly any more harm he can do.

In merging, Anders becomes more like Vengeance in that he ends up with a sort of narrow focus/fixation on righting the injustices done to mages at all costs, regardless of the body count. So even if Vengeance doesn't pop out and take over, causing blackouts like in the latter stages of the rivalmance, Vengeance has already done great harm even in this more "peaceful" merging. I think Anders would still be willing to engage in other acts of terrorism if Anders/Vengeance deemed it necessary again, so there's plenty of harm that he/they (whatever you want to call them) could do...unless Hawke's influence is such that he/she can help turn Anders/Vengeance away from his current path.

[highcastle]

Batteries wrote...

YamiSnuffles wrote...

highcastle wrote...
-snip-
I'm wandering off-topic here. I guess the point I'm trying to make is twofold: 1) it's sad that rivaling Anders means he assumes you're pro-templar; it would be nice to see him reacting just to your condemnation of Justice and not to mages as a whole, and 2) it's a little scary to think siding with the templars might be the more morally just stance. I might be reading too much into this. It's quite possible I am. This is what studying Lit does to you.

I agree that it would be nice if there was some more variance in the friendship/rivalry scale. There are a few instances where the game assumes you take a certain stance, even if your actions speak to the contrary. For example, Merrill ended up as 100% friendship with me because I supported mages. Because of this, she also assumes I support her whole mirror debacle, even though I never help her with it and every conversation I have with her shows I dissaprove of what she's doing/how she's doing it.

Especially with Anders, I think with it would be nice if there was a bit more finesse considering how profound an effect it has on him.

Maybe using both the rivalry/friendship system and the approval/disapproval metre could help mediate that?

EDIT

Actually, that sounds like it'd just make it more complicated.

Hopefully this doesn't end up as a doublepost on my account. You threw this up just as I was posting something else. I think really the whole approval system as a whole should go. Ideally, companions and the world around you should react to each individual choice you make. So you might not want to send Grace to the Circle for instance. Anders will voice his agreement with this. If you then tell him you think it was stupid to merge with Justice, he'll fight you on it. Conversations should flow naturally, like they do with real people.

Of course, this sounds like a mess to program. Me not being a programmer, it might even be impossible. I of course come from the realm of tabletop games where characters are backed by other real people. They can react in multi-dimensional ways a computer program might not be capable of. But it doesn't mean we shouldn't strive for authenticity of emotions. And I think knocking out the 2-dimensional meter is the first way we accomplish this.

Gosh, I'm sounding more revolutionary than I mean to. Anders must be having an effect on me.

[Tyrium]

Geez, this thread hurts today, I usually come in here for some funnies. Good to have a real discussion though.

I think the friendship path is better for Anders as he seems more stable. He might be more dangerous after the fact, but my Hawke will be there to temper him. (Besides, in my opinion he's right. Everything he did up to the chantry, I agree with. That one, well, I understand his reasoning, and I can forgive him, but I'm very very glad my Hawke didn't have to decide if she would help or not.)

On rivalry, the kindest thing to do is kill him - he's lost control, pretty much. Especially if they fix that dialogue firing. He wanted to stop Vengeance, and he couldn't do anything about it at all. Making him fight for the templars is not redeeming him, it will destroy him.

[kromify]

Dreaming-in-Shadow wrote...

kromify wrote...

@ dreaming-in-shadow i don't get your fiona reference...?

Fiona, the elven mage from the Calling?

She was a slave. She was repeatedly raped and e.t.c.
I fail to see how the Circle can be worse than that (provided the Orlesian templars aren't just as bad)

oh okay. i never read the books  

[Dunizel]

Tyrium wrote...

Bit late to the party, but yeah, I agree. He's lost so much of himself on the  rivalry path, with the blackouts etc, especially with the romance. In friendship, he's still Anders, and Justice only comes out in circumstances in which my Hawke was pretty much screaming anyway. I'd argue that he's a better person on friendship.

I know I am the minority here, but I even doubt that in the friendly path he is still Anders and Justice come sout only in some circumstances. I just see the influence of Vengeance is stronger, but he doesn't care enough to notice...or at least, he doesn't see it much of a problem.
In a friendly path, the are combined in a new entity. I don't know how much sense I made with the last sentence o.O I hope it's comprehensible. 
Not that in a rivalry it goes much better...they don't "combine", but they keep struggling...with Vengeance that apparently can win. 

Afterall, rival or friend, willing or not, I think there is little left of Anders, he is simply another person byt the end of DA2.

[Dreaming-in-Shadow]

highcastle wrote...

But the Circle's not a safe place for mages to grow up. Not when there are templars like Alrik who make them Tranquil and rape them. Not when they face losing their minds if they don't pass their finals. Not when the templars have the authority to imprison them in solitary confinement (I'm a criminology student in addition to a lit student, and I posted a while back about the psychological ramifications of solitary; in short, it's not a happy place and it tends to accentuate the negative qualities you go in with).

Honestly, I don't think the Circle can change from within at this point. It has a sordid reputation among the mages, a history too steeped in abuses to ever fully escape from them. I don't think blowing up the Chantry was the right answer, either, but that's what happened. After that, there really can't be any going back. Templars are just going to see mages as more violent, with a greater potential for radicalism and evil than ever before. They're going to crack down harder, abuses will be more severe, and the lot for mages will get worse. For their part, mages have seen the Chantry and the Circle is not infallible. They're going to fight back.

I just don't see how anyone's going to be able to do a simple restructure at this point. I think the whole system needs to be overhauled. Mages should be allowed some form of self-policing instead of being subject to templar oversight in all matters. And those who provide outside oversight should at least view their charges as humans (and elves). Cullen made it clear he didn't think that's the case. When you dehumanize your charges, it makes it easier to victimize them. Again, the whole culture surrounding this issue needs to change.

True.
What would really help the issue is if the Chantry was stripped of most of its power.

"Magic is meant to serve man, never to rule over him. But it's perfectly OK for us to enslave elves and imprison and victimise innocent children."

My major point was that mages need to be amongst others of their kind in order to learn to control their gift, or else you end up with accidents like Connor, Meredith and her sister.
But they should have the right to things other normal people have.

A decent meal,
A pretty guy/girl
And the right to shoot lightening at fools

[Dreaming-in-Shadow]

Ryzaki wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I don't see how Alrik indicts the whole Circle/Templar system when he acted alone - or at least with a small cadre - and his plan was shot down by everyone.

Furthermore I don't see how the Kirkwall Circle is good evidence of anything other than the fact having a Circle in Kirkwall is a really, really bad idea.

Now this I agree with. 

I wonder what genius came up with that idea. 

Extremist templar hoping for the mess of DA2 to happen?

[Tyrium]

highcastle wrote...
Gosh, I'm sounding more revolutionary than I mean to. Anders must be having an effect on me.

He has that effect.

Modifié par Tyrium, 25 avril 2011 - 10:12 .

[Ryzaki]

Yeah Anders is changed at the ending of DA2. He will never be the same friendship or otherwise. To me the friendship path is giving into Vengeance. I will never be supportive of that. Vengeance especially blind Vengeance is destructive, cruel and will never lead to a brighter future. For no one. If people keep the cycle of vengeance for crimes committed it will never end.

You can't build a better world with Vengeance.

Sure on Rivalry he may lose to Vengeance but he'll never give up without a fight, and he'll be fully aware of how destructive and harmful to both himself and others that vengeance really is. 

And of course I'm the optimist that thinks that he'll be able to hold off Vengeance. (Extremely unlikely but hey I can dream.)

If he can't my Hawke will end his life when Anders tells him he can't hold on anymore. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 25 avril 2011 - 10:15 .

[Dreaming-in-Shadow]

Ryzaki wrote...

Dreaming-in-Shadow wrote...

0o-Constance-o0 wrote...

Purposeof-Flight wrote...

This thread is so full of sunshiney thoughts today.

MY TEARS HAVE BEEN REPLACED WITH BLOOD!!!

*emoemo*

'The darkness of the Anders Thread has seeped into my soul! The world is dead! My heart is black! Alas! Woe! Woe!'

Crawling in my skin....These wounds they will not heal. 

I need a Fenris quote now.
He's an expert of broody elf emo-poetry.

[silver-crescent]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

The game absolutely does.  And I can see it jiving just fine with Hepler's post.  I'm just using the terms Vengeance/Anders/Justice in a way that explains my views simply.  

Put another simple way:

Anders: Ego
Vengeance: Id
Justice: Superego

FriendPath:  Successfully reconcile the Ego and the Id.
RivalPath: Fail to reconcile the Ego and Id, Id assumes direct control.

Sure, its a semi-archaic Freudian interpretation, but then we're not talking about a real person with a real brain.  In terms of a fictional character it makes plenty of sense.  But it's not as if we can remove Anders new Id and give him his old one back.  It's gone.

It is still Anders though. Just because someone is suffering from an outside influence/mental illness, it doesn't mean that the person just stops existing. Or, from a game point of view, Connor was still Connor even with the desire demon, and Wynne was still Wynne, even with her spirit.

The thing is, through the whole game, there are TONS of occasions in which Anders is pretty much just himself, with no Justice influence, like when he jokes around with the other characters, or in his relationship with Hawke, and whatnot. It's not like justice's influence changes his whole being.

Ultimately though, everyone can have their own interpretation of the whole situation. I don't agree with yours, but it's not like we're gonna change each other's minds anyway so might as well just drop it. I'm too tired for this 

Modifié par silver-crescent, 25 avril 2011 - 10:14 .

[mellifera]

Dreaming-in-Shadow wrote...


I need a Fenris quote now.
He's an expert of broody elf emo-poetry.

It's a sickness, this hate. This dark growth inside me that I can't ever get rid of, and they put it there!

[Ryzaki]

Dreaming-in-Shadow wrote..
I need a Fenris quote now.
He's an expert of broody elf emo-poetry.

I feel unclean. Like not only is this magic etched in my skin but its stained my very soul.

Or something like that. 

[purplecookie]

Dunizel wrote...

Tyrium wrote...

Bit late to the party, but yeah, I agree. He's lost so much of himself on the  rivalry path, with the blackouts etc, especially with the romance. In friendship, he's still Anders, and Justice only comes out in circumstances in which my Hawke was pretty much screaming anyway. I'd argue that he's a better person on friendship.

I know I am the minority here, but I even doubt that in the friendly path he is still Anders and Justice come sout only in some circumstances. I just see the influence of Vengeance is stronger, but he doesn't care enough to notice...or at least, he doesn't see it much of a problem.
In a friendly path, the are combined in a new entity. I don't know how much sense I made with the last sentence o.O I hope it's comprehensible. 
Not that in a rivalry it goes much better...they don't "combine", but they keep struggling...with Vengeance that apparently can win. 

Afterall, rival or friend, willing or not, I think there is little left of Anders, he is simply another person byt the end of DA2.

Also coming late to the party but I totally agree with this. I don't think it's a case at all that in friendship he's still Anders, more that the friendship path represents an acceptance of the amalgamation Anders/Justice have become.