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[Tyrium]

Amondra wrote...

 I heard that Fenris had some inspiration from Valen Shadowbreath from NWN.  If this is true Fenris has a new sex appeal!

Yeah I know! Valen was my first pixel love. When that was said, I was absolutely sure I'd be going for Fenris. Until they announced Anders. How could I ever go for anyone but Anders in this game?

[Threeparts]

nekhbet wrote...

I've always thought it's very intentional how he contradicts himself all the time. He doesn't have a clue himself and picks whichever option sounds better for his current situation and offers a better explanation for Hawke.

I like this explanation and I try to subscribe to it myself, but I do have to wonder how much was intentional and how much is us filling the flaws in his characterisation with arguments that make him appear more interesting and complex. I'm trying not to let my fanon explanations bleed into my critical examination, but Anders' particular state can make that difficult. 

[Ninche]

Anders contradicting himself often had me frustrated - also the difference in his statements between fried and rival gave me a headache - I didn't know what to believe. I'm still not sure Anders as rival and Anders as friend should be treated as THE SAME person, because after 7 years of rivling or friendship a person changes. I don't like using arguments from Act 3 of different relationship paths for that reason.

Also, I believe that Anders did/does care about Hawke, enough to try and keep her out of his plans as much as possible. At the same time he has no issues with using her, even blackmailing her into aiding him WITHOUT actually telling her his plan - this is what I found most frustrating and hurtful of all, but when the chantry went boom I didn't feel anger or hate towards him for a moment - all I felt was shock and horror and sadness - because I understood how grand this whole thing was, and how Hawke and Anders were right in the middle of it and there'd never be "normal" life in store for them.

I know the game gives us just enough info to survive and carry on as a tension and involvement mechanism but I just end up feeling like there was SO MUCH to the story that never came through and so much more to Anders especially that we didn't get to know or see - and that makes me angry rather than fascinated. I would like to KNOW more, a cliffhanger is fine as long as you have SOME idea of what might happen. We have none

Modifié par Ninche, 26 avril 2011 - 10:36 .

[Amondra]

Tyrium wrote...

Amondra wrote...

 I heard that Fenris had some inspiration from Valen Shadowbreath from NWN.  If this is true Fenris has a new sex appeal!

Yeah I know! Valen was my first pixel love. When that was said, I was absolutely sure I'd be going for Fenris. Until they announced Anders. How could I ever go for anyone but Anders in this game?

I know right?!  Also Valen's voice *swoons*

However you gave me an Isabela moment.  All I could see was Anders and Valen oilded up...close by...naked.... Thank you and Isabela for this moment of bliss.

[Amondra]

Anders not keeping his story straight was annoying beyond belief. But sense the codex speaks of mood swings like a bi-polar(and sense like I said I am one) It made more sense to me. I always friendmance him so this is from that angle and my own personal life here. One not matter what swing I am in and I promise you not all manic swings are same and not all depressive ones. My actions and my explanations on things change to those swings and honestly I can't be trusted. Hell I was I couldn't work anymore, because where my real feelings were buried under a ton of crud. However if people just kept telling me how bad I was and I was being stupid obsessing over something or rambling(I do that a lot) It only made it worse. I got worse. I see Anders the same way. You beat him down the less of him he feels there is because what he is hearing is "YOU ARE A MONSTER!!" Even if that isn't what Hawke is saying. No wonder I got attached to the character....well speaking of rambling....

Modifié par Amondra, 26 avril 2011 - 10:54 .

[Miss Greyjoy]

Mel_Redux wrote...

yukidama wrote...

Nathaniel Howe in drag? Would he dress up as Frank-N-Furter in honour of his dad?

WHUUUUUUUUT?

I'd still hit it.

[Ninche]

Amondra wrote...

Anders not keeping his story straight was annoying beyond belief. But sense the codex speaks of mood swings like a bi-polar(and sense like I said I am one) It made more sense to me. I always friendmance him so this is from that angle and my own personal life here. One not matter what swing I am in and I promise you not all manic swings are same and not all depressive ones. My actions and my explanations on things change to those swings and honestly I can't be trusted. Hell I was I couldn't work anymore, because where my real feelings were buried under a ton of crud. However if people just kept telling me how bad I was and I was being stupid obsessing over something or rambling(I do that a lot) It only made it worse. I got worse. I see Anders the same way. You beat him down the less of him he feels there is because what he is hearing is "YOU ARE A MONSTER!!" Even if that isn't what Hawke is saying. No wonder I got attached to the character....well speaking of rambling....

There is absolutely nothing wrong with rambling ^^ And in the end of the day a relationship, be it with someone who isnt real, is not just about THEM it's about both partners - in that sense I'm not sure my Hawke is capable of being mean and rude to the man she loves even if she knew it would utlimately be better for him - which I still don't necessarily agree with. It so happens that agreeing with Anders' views about mages also means he will be your friend - or the opposite. But a mage hating Hawke makes no sense to me whatsoever, because he/she obviously loves her family more than anything and would fight to the death to keep them safe - i dont get how a person like that can turn on their sister and esentially father - I definitely wouldn't take pleasure in roleplaying someone like that. 

All I'm ssaying is that for one reason or another friendship makes the most sense to me and what you just shared makes me feel better about it ^^ 

@Everyone

And I don't even remember who linked (or writes) Tempering Justice on the kink meme but it's BRILLIANT! 

It's actually a super complex and lovely insight of Anders' mind - I love how Vengeance is treated as an external thing - something that isn't really part of either Justice or Anders - like something Justice tries to fight against. It's just so much loveliness and sweetness and sadness <3

[nekhbet]

To be honest I don't even care if it's intentional or not. Just like I don't care if Anders was written bi/omni/bisexual from the beginning. If the part of the story works and seems intentional, that should be enough. And it works for his inconsistency (and sexuality, for that matter). It's how real people behave when confused about their changing mental health status. It's easy to try to rationalise and explain everything confusing, no matter how wrong you get it or if it's consistent rationalisation.

[YamiSnuffles]

First thing my brain comprehends in the morning when waking up:

Ninche wrote...
I believe getting to know him... better would have been pleasurable and useful.

Mmmmmmyeah.

-resume serious discussion-

[Amondra]

Ninche wrote...

Amondra wrote...

Anders not keeping his story straight was annoying beyond belief. But sense the codex speaks of mood swings like a bi-polar(and sense like I said I am one) It made more sense to me. I always friendmance him so this is from that angle and my own personal life here. One not matter what swing I am in and I promise you not all manic swings are same and not all depressive ones. My actions and my explanations on things change to those swings and honestly I can't be trusted. Hell I was I couldn't work anymore, because where my real feelings were buried under a ton of crud. However if people just kept telling me how bad I was and I was being stupid obsessing over something or rambling(I do that a lot) It only made it worse. I got worse. I see Anders the same way. You beat him down the less of him he feels there is because what he is hearing is "YOU ARE A MONSTER!!" Even if that isn't what Hawke is saying. No wonder I got attached to the character....well speaking of rambling....

There is absolutely nothing wrong with rambling ^^ And in the end of the day a relationship, be it with someone who isnt real, is not just about THEM it's about both partners - in that sense I'm not sure my Hawke is capable of being mean and rude to the man she loves even if she knew it would utlimately be better for him - which I still don't necessarily agree with. It so happens that agreeing with Anders' views about mages also means he will be your friend - or the opposite. But a mage hating Hawke makes no sense to me whatsoever, because he/she obviously loves her family more than anything and would fight to the death to keep them safe - i dont get how a person like that can turn on their sister and esentially father - I definitely wouldn't take pleasure in roleplaying someone like that. 

All I'm ssaying is that for one reason or another friendship makes the most sense to me and what you just shared makes me feel better about it ^^ 

@Everyone

And I don't even remember who linked (or writes) Tempering Justice on the kink meme but it's BRILLIANT! 

It's actually a super complex and lovely insight of Anders' mind - I love how Vengeance is treated as an external thing - something that isn't really part of either Justice or Anders - like something Justice tries to fight against. It's just so much loveliness and sweetness and sadness <3

Sadly with unstable people we tend to need more attention and the relationship can start to seem onsided and thus we just try to avoid them....like Anders did >_< well he tried to do.  I still believe this was shown with his lack of keeping the same story.  Ask me about my mental state now, then again in a month and I promise it will have changed.

[YamiSnuffles]

Ninche wrote...

@Everyone

And I don't even remember who linked (or writes) Tempering Justice on the kink meme but it's BRILLIANT! 

It's actually a super complex and lovely insight of Anders' mind - I love how Vengeance is treated as an external thing - something that isn't really part of either Justice or Anders - like something Justice tries to fight against. It's just so much loveliness and sweetness and sadness <3

Have you read her other story "The Strongest Force"? It was written first and ties right in to "Tempering Justice" only it's from Hawke's POV. It starts just after the end of DA2.

For anyone who hasn't read it, I can't find it on the kinkmeme (because I'm useless at navigating that site) but here's a link to it on ff.net: www.fanfiction.net/s/6866763/1/The_Strongest_Force

[Ninche]

YamiSnuffles wrote...

Ninche wrote...

@Everyone

And I don't even remember who linked (or writes) Tempering Justice on the kink meme but it's BRILLIANT! 

It's actually a super complex and lovely insight of Anders' mind - I love how Vengeance is treated as an external thing - something that isn't really part of either Justice or Anders - like something Justice tries to fight against. It's just so much loveliness and sweetness and sadness <3

Have you read her other story "The Strongest Force"? It was written first and ties right in to "Tempering Justice" only it's from Hawke's POV. It starts just after the end of DA2.

For anyone who hasn't read it, I can't find it on the kinkmeme (because I'm useless at navigating that site) but here's a link to it on ff.net: www.fanfiction.net/s/6866763/1/The_Strongest_Force

Haha the strongest force IS the VERY first kink meme story i read and loved and proudly sits on top of my fav list now  It's awesome when you find a brilliant story and then realise it's written by an author you love already, it shouldnt be surprising but it is ^^ 

And as for getting to know Anders being pleasurable - I have to constantly fight the urge to just talk about Anders sexy times and fluffy stuff in order to sound intelligent. But yes if you are reading this Bioware I'd actually like to do more with Anders in a DLC than just TALK. (In case you didn't get the hint I want a hand icon next to the star which means sexy touch) Pretty please?

[highcastle]

Amondra wrote...

Anders not keeping his story straight was annoying beyond belief. But sense the codex speaks of mood swings like a bi-polar(and sense like I said I am one) It made more sense to me. I always friendmance him so this is from that angle and my own personal life here. One not matter what swing I am in and I promise you not all manic swings are same and not all depressive ones. My actions and my explanations on things change to those swings and honestly I can't be trusted. Hell I was I couldn't work anymore, because where my real feelings were buried under a ton of crud. However if people just kept telling me how bad I was and I was being stupid obsessing over something or rambling(I do that a lot) It only made it worse. I got worse. I see Anders the same way. You beat him down the less of him he feels there is because what he is hearing is "YOU ARE A MONSTER!!" Even if that isn't what Hawke is saying. No wonder I got attached to the character....well speaking of rambling....

This is the impression that I get, too. I'm not bipolar myself, but one of my siblings and a few of my cousins are. I've seen it from the other side, the one of loving and dealing someone who is not always rational. While it was interesting reading Ms. Hepler's take on rivalry versus friendship, I just have a hard time believing rivalry is really the best way to go since it just beats Anders down so much. He might be more aware of when he's having an episode (though that point's debatable too since he seems to have blackouts), but he's less equipped to handle them.

I've said before that rivalry assumes (even if it doesn't require) you side with the templars throughout the game. And I have a hard time believing this is the morally superior choice either. I'm not saying mages are a bed of roses, either. Personally I'm of the opinion neither side is all that great. But of the two, it's the mages who are systematically abused, dehumanized, and oppressed. Many of their turns to blood magic can be explained by trying to escape that system, while the templars seem only to abuse it.

Of course, friending Anders then puts you in the precarious position of enabling him at times. Really, the game doesn't allow for a perfect way to handle someone like him. I'd love to be able to call him out when he's letting Justice override him without painting all mages as monsters. I guess in the end it's another difficult choice to make. Do you enable Anders and side with mages, thus validating some of his more irrational paranoia? Or do you break him down, maybe making him a bit more aware of his actions, but also side with a corrupt and oppressive organization? Do you put the good of all mages above Anders' sanity, or Anders above the mages?

[Threeparts]

highcastle wrote...

Do you put the good of all mages above Anders' sanity, or Anders above the mages?

That's a very interesting way of looking at it, and I wish it were more tied in with the story itself, instead of simply being an effect of the way Anders' friendship-rivalry scale is set up. If Hawke had to consciously make that choice or face up to it, the consequences on the story and relationship would have been fascinating.
As it is, you never get to make that decision, as your feelings towards Anders' possession are presumed by the game when making the unrelated mage vs templar decisions, and vice versa.

It's incredibly frustrating that something that could have been so central to the plot and main character development feels so neglected or dismissed. I know it probably comes down to limitations on time and resources, but that doesn't change how much it irritates me.

Modifié par Threeparts, 26 avril 2011 - 12:10 .

[YamiSnuffles]

I think the more revelations that have come out about friendship/rivalry, the more firmly I've become set in my choices. There are obviously positives and negatives on both ends of the spectrum, but I believe too much in what Anders is trying to do to actively undermine that. It seems like in the friendship path he'll be in the best state of mind to actually work and progress the revolution. In rivalry he might want to make up for the Chantry bombing, but what can he do anymore? It seems in rivalry he'd be spending all of his time fighting against Justice and, likely, losing sometimes. In that case, he'd black out and then who knows what he'd do? It seems like J/V would do something even more extreme to make up for all the inaction.

@Ninche Yeah, I usually avoid just talking about sexytimes but I think I can get away with it first thing in the morning, haha. My brain has not yet woken up enough for serious, thoughtful discussion.

[SurelyForth]

I wish that the rivalry/friendship scale was more nuanced, or acknowledged the ways Hawke is rivaling a given companion. With Fenris, my Hawke rivals him on mages but otherwise supports him and kills every slaver she sees (except for Castillon, but that's when her Isabela Blindness kicks in) and with Anders it's the mage/templar and Justice Good/Justice Bad. I would have loved for those issues to be dealt with separately in the game.

Before DA2 came out, based on comments and spoilers, I was convinced that I was going to have to rival Anders. It made sense to me, as someone who barely stomachs revenge fantasies, to want to convince him that Vengeance was wrong. When I realized that siding with the mages meant I'd have to be aggressive with him most of the time and challenge the cause that my Hawke believed in (or just leave him behind when playing mage specific quests...and I don't even know how that works considering the way he references those things later in the game), I couldn't do it.

So I guess I put all mages above Anders' sanity.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 26 avril 2011 - 12:14 .

[SurelyForth]

YamiSnuffles wrote...
 In rivalry he might want to make up for the Chantry bombing, but what can he do anymore? It seems in rivalry he'd be spending all of his time fighting against Justice and, likely, losing sometimes. In that case, he'd black out and then who knows what he'd do? It seems like J/V would do something even more extreme to make up for all the inaction.

One of the things that swayed me towards Friendship as The One Path (for me) was his Friendship/Rivalry passive descriptions. They both indicate a singlemindedness, but the rivalry one is more determinedly singleminded and much more in the realm of Vengeance. It confused me until I realized that Justice/Vengeance takes over more when you rival him, and then I was like "Oh! Ohhhhhhh." I just don't feel like that Anders was meant to survive much past the endgame considering how pulled apart he'd be by his own feelings, Hawke's feelings, his inability to keep Vengeance under control at that point AND the events that transpire in Act III.

[GailRana]

highcastle wrote...

Do you put the good of all mages above Anders' sanity, or Anders above the mages?

Odd, i never felt like i was making that decision on the friend path. With lines like "I don't want to see you loose yourself to the templars, or to justice" i never felt like Hawke was supporting their merge, just helping him resist justice in a more supportive way.

[YamiSnuffles]

Considering much of the ending seems bugged on the rivalry side, I'd like to see if he still reacts the same way if you let him live. Since he's supposed to be more manic on the friend side, his excitement over living and fighting seemed to make a lot of sense. If he's supposed to be more depressed on the rivalry side, would he still jump at that chance? It seems like, if anything, he would argue with Hawke more about ending it or something.

[highcastle]

GailRana wrote...

highcastle wrote...

Do you put the good of all mages above Anders' sanity, or Anders above the mages?

Odd, i never felt like i was making that decision on the friend path. With lines like "I don't want to see you loose yourself to the templars, or to justice" i never felt like Hawke was supporting their merge, just helping him resist justice in a more supportive way.

That was the impression I had initially, too. It was Ms. Hepler's comments that made me doubt myself and look at it anew. I still don't know if this is the right interpretation. I just think it's interesting to consider. And since I'm ridiculously pro-mage, I guess we know where that puts me on the sliding scale of Ander's sanity v. mage's freedom.

[SurelyForth]

YamiSnuffles wrote...

Considering much of the ending seems bugged on the rivalry side, I'd like to see if he still reacts the same way if you let him live. Since he's supposed to be more manic on the friend side, his excitement over living and fighting seemed to make a lot of sense. If he's supposed to be more depressed on the rivalry side, would he still jump at that chance? It seems like, if anything, he would argue with Hawke more about ending it or something.

I've mentioned it before, and I don't know if it's tied into an ending where Hawke has supported the templars or not, but there is dialogue to indicate that he really, really wants to die there, mostly because he doesn't trust himself anymore.

[YamiSnuffles]

Ms. Hepler's comments, if anything, made me think less of his sanity and more of his morality. He seemed equally sane (or, perhaps, equally less sane) on either side. However, on the friendship side he was a bit more... ruthless? He's more willing to make hard choices and do questionable things to advance the cause of the mages. On rivalry, since he doesn't believe in that cause in the same way anymore, he's no longer willing to make such decisions.

So it seems to be a loss of some of Anders compassion(?) to side strongly with the mages.

SurelyForth wrote...

I've mentioned it before, and I don't know if it's tied into an ending where Hawke has supported the templars or not, but there is dialogue to indicate that he really, really wants to die there, mostly because he doesn't trust himself anymore.

I think it's in the cut Templar siding dialogue once they've reached the Gallows. He seems to want to die once all of that is over or even be killed during the fight. But I could be remembering that wrong. I just wonder if his "box of shame" talk is different. If that dialogue is attached to that then, well, that explains everything.

Modifié par YamiSnuffles, 26 avril 2011 - 12:35 .

[GailRana]

Amondra wrote...

Anders not keeping his story straight was annoying beyond belief. But sense the codex speaks of mood swings like a bi-polar(and sense like I said I am one) It made more sense to me. I always friendmance him so this is from that angle and my own personal life here. One not matter what swing I am in and I promise you not all manic swings are same and not all depressive ones. My actions and my explanations on things change to those swings and honestly I can't be trusted. Hell I was I couldn't work anymore, because where my real feelings were buried under a ton of crud. However if people just kept telling me how bad I was and I was being stupid obsessing over something or rambling(I do that a lot) It only made it worse. I got worse. I see Anders the same way. You beat him down the less of him he feels there is because what he is hearing is "YOU ARE A MONSTER!!" Even if that isn't what Hawke is saying. No wonder I got attached to the character....well speaking of rambling....

Well said! And that's pretty much the logic that set me on the friendmance path with anders. It's also usually my approach when talking with people in real life too, so it felt like a natural progression between my hawke and anders.

And again, i don't feel like you're being supportive of the Anders/Justice merge, just understanding and supportive of what he's fighting against and dealing with.

and yay for rambling and getting attached to characters and story for personal reasons. it makes for an almost therapeutic game play

[Threeparts]

SurelyForth wrote...

I wish that the rivalry/friendship scale was more nuanced, or acknowledged the ways Hawke is rivaling a given companion. With Fenris, my Hawke rivals him on mages but otherwise supports him and kills every slaver she sees (except for Castillon, but that's when her Isabela Blindness kicks in) and with Anders it's the mage/templar and Vengeance Good/Vengeance Bad. I would have loved for those issues to be dealt with separately in the game.

Yes, absolutely. If the game tracked your stances on issues and events, rather than how much you conflict with a companion overall, there could be much more depth to the world. The friendship/rivalry system was touted as rewarding consistency within a character rather than simply encouraging the PC to suck up to companions, but its limitations show through when your consistency on one topic is overridden by your opinions on a different one.

My solution would be to have the companions keep track of how the PC responds to specific issues, so that they can agree on one topic and disagree on the other. Not just over the course of a single conversation, but the entirety of the game. If there's a twist in the plot that gives the PC the opportunity to radically change their own beliefs (just as All That Remains gives Hawke a reason to turn against mages), give the player a chance to complete a Questioning Beliefs type quest for themselves, rather than just the NPCs, and have the NPCs track that change. Have conversations that reflect their surprise when a formerly dog-loving PC is terrified of the beasts after being attacked by a rabid mabari and now holds pro-cat views.

With three major points on which the companion has an opinion (slavery, Circles and blood magic, for instance) it would be enough to tip the scale into either friendship or rivalry, depending on how much their views align with the PC's, and while it would be more complex, it would also make more sense. 

And I don't care how hard it is to implement, or how unreasonable it is to ask for it; there's so much potential to work with here, and I hate to see it wasted.

Modifié par Threeparts, 26 avril 2011 - 12:38 .

[highcastle]

Threeparts wrote...

Yes, absolutely. If the game tracked your stances on issues and events, rather than how much you conflict with a companion overall, there could be much more depth to the world. The friendship/rivalry system was touted as rewarding consistency within a character rather than simply encouraging the PC to suck up to companions, but it's limitations show through when your consistency on one topic is overridden by your opinions on a different one.

My solution would be to have the companions keep track of how the PC responds to specific issues, so that they can agree on one topic and disagree on the other. Not just over the course of a single conversation, but the entirety of the game. If there's a twist in the plot that gives the PC the opportunity to radically change their own beliefs (just as All That Remains gives Hawke a reason to turn against mages), give the player a chance to complete a Questioning Beliefs type quest for themselves, rather than just the NPCs, and have the NPCs track that change. Have conversations that reflect their surprise when a formerly dog-loving PC is terrified of the beasts after being attacked by a rabid mabari and now holds pro-cat views.

With three major points on which the companion has an opinion (slavery, Circles and blood magic, for instance) it would be enough to tip the scale into either friendship or rivalry, depending on how much their views align with the PC's, and while it would be more complex, it would also make more sense. 

And I don't care how hard it is to implement, or how unreasonable it is to ask for it; there's so much potential to work with here, and I hate to see it wasted.

This is a fantastic idea and I'd love if something like this were implemented in a future game. I liked the idea of friendship/rivalry, but the implementation of it left something to be desired. But tracking companion's approval in relation to 2-3 core issues would make it much more nuanced. And I love the idea of giving the PC a quest based around affirming or rejecting the stance s/he's taken throughout the game. Devs, are you reading this?