57019 réponses à ce sujet

[GailRana]

highcastle wrote...

That was the impression I had initially, too. It was Ms. Hepler's comments that made me doubt myself and look at it anew. I still don't know if this is the right interpretation. I just think it's interesting to consider. And since I'm ridiculously pro-mage, I guess we know where that puts me on the sliding scale of Ander's sanity v. mage's freedom.

Mage freedom! *high five*

Are there conversation points where you actively encourage Anders to be more justice-y? Because like i said, most of my conversations on the pro-mage path were a lot of "mages need to be free, but not all templars are evil." 


EDIT FOR TOP
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Modifié par GailRana, 26 avril 2011 - 12:42 .

[Ninche]

I did a sort of relationship study of both friend and rival path the other day and discoevered another angle: A fully rivalmanced Anders who is spared by Hawke who then sides with the templars, has lost all his convictions and passion for his cause - he will now follow Hawke's decisions blindly even if it means going against everything he's been fighting for for years, but it also means (this is speculation since I have no way of knowing) that now Anders is free to dedicate himself to Hawke as much as possible between feeling guilty and blacking out as vengeance takes over.

A fully friendmanced Anders who has just started a revolution and has been spared by a mage siding Hawke will gladly jump into the melee and fight - regardless of Hawke decision to be with him or not - the cause remains Anders' greatest purpose.

Also David Gaider said somewhere that, indeed, Anders wants to die - alot, and in a way keeping him alive prolonges his struggles and pain and the general tragedy of his life.

[nekhbet]

YamiSnuffles wrote...

I think the more revelations that have come out about friendship/rivalry, the more firmly I've become set in my choices. There are obviously positives and negatives on both ends of the spectrum, but I believe too much in what Anders is trying to do to actively undermine that. It seems like in the friendship path he'll be in the best state of mind to actually work and progress the revolution. In rivalry he might want to make up for the Chantry bombing, but what can he do anymore? It seems in rivalry he'd be spending all of his time fighting against Justice and, likely, losing sometimes. In that case, he'd black out and then who knows what he'd do? It seems like J/V would do something even more extreme to make up for all the inaction.

This would be my "canon" PT, as well. I personally can't judge blowing up the chantry and killing people until I see the actual results, because that's exactly how history is made (or not made, depending on the results). If it fails, well, I don't see myself condemning him any more than I do any random suicide bombers. Which is not to say I support such, just that I can understand where someone like that is coming from and why they do what they do for their cause, even if I disagree with it. In Anders' case I can even agree with the cause. It won't be pretty for my Hawke and Anders, but at least they're fighting.

But that's the social activist in me speaking. I'm a direct action kinda person, go figure. Still want to torture Anders all the same with EvilHawke.

[YamiSnuffles]

Threeparts wrote...

My solution would be to have the companions keep track of how the PC responds to specific issues, so that they can agree on one topic and disagree on the other. Not just over the course of a single conversation, but the entirety of the game. If there's a twist in the plot that gives the PC the opportunity to radically change their own beliefs (just as All That Remains gives Hawke a reason to turn against mages), give the player a chance to complete a Questioning Beliefs type quest for themselves, rather than just the NPCs, and have the NPCs track that change. Have conversations that reflect their surprise when a formerly dog-loving PC is terrified of the beasts after being attacked by a rabid mabari and now holds pro-cat views.

I think this would have been good, even if they just implimented it in regards to the LI. Like, have your LI come to you to question you on certain things. For example, if you take on Orana as a slave, have Fenris come to question you about your opinion on slaver. That could then be a make or break point. Or in Act 3, have Anders come to you after you have vocally supported either Meredith or Orsino. Also, you could have him question how Hawke feels about him having spent the last three years with him; this would be a good point for him to talk about what it's been like and a good way for Hawke to say how she feels about his possession.

Modifié par YamiSnuffles, 26 avril 2011 - 12:47 .

[highcastle]

GailRana wrote...


Are there conversation points where you actively encourage Anders to be more justice-y? Because like i said, most of my conversations on the pro-mage path were a lot of "mages need to be free, but not all templars are evil." 

I think the closest you come is when Anders approaches you about the nonexistent potion. He says merging with Justice was wrong, and you can say (paraphrasing), "That's not true. You've been doing much better at controlling him." So it's not so much encouraging Anders to embrace that side of him as acknowledge he's been trying to control it.

[GailRana]

Threeparts wrote...

Yes, absolutely. If the game tracked your stances on issues and events, rather than how much you conflict with a companion overall, there could be much more depth to the world. The friendship/rivalry system was touted as rewarding consistency within a character rather than simply encouraging the PC to suck up to companions, but its limitations show through when your consistency on one topic is overridden by your opinions on a different one.

My solution would be to have the companions keep track of how the PC responds to specific issues, so that they can agree on one topic and disagree on the other. Not just over the course of a single conversation, but the entirety of the game. If there's a twist in the plot that gives the PC the opportunity to radically change their own beliefs (just as All That Remains gives Hawke a reason to turn against mages), give the player a chance to complete a Questioning Beliefs type quest for themselves, rather than just the NPCs, and have the NPCs track that change. Have conversations that reflect their surprise when a formerly dog-loving PC is terrified of the beasts after being attacked by a rabid mabari and now holds pro-cat views.

With three major points on which the companion has an opinion (slavery, Circles and blood magic, for instance) it would be enough to tip the scale into either friendship or rivalry, depending on how much their views align with the PC's, and while it would be more complex, it would also make more sense. 

And I don't care how hard it is to implement, or how unreasonable it is to ask for it; there's so much potential to work with here, and I hate to see it wasted.

that would be the most epic RPG ever! Complicated and difficult to script and build but would be completely worth it in game play potential   

[Threeparts]

YamiSnuffles wrote...

Ms. Hepler's comments, if anything, made me think less of his sanity and more of his morality. He seemed equally sane (or, perhaps, equally less sane) on either side. However, on the friendship side he was a bit more... ruthless? He's more willing to make hard choices and do questionable things to advance the cause of the mages. On rivalry, since he doesn't believe in that cause in the same way anymore, he's no longer willing to make such decisions.

So it seems to be a loss of some of Anders compassion(?) to side strongly with the mages.

That definitely seems to be the case. In Rivalry, he doesn't want to blow up the Chantry, but is forced into it by the demon. Friendship, he sees it as necessary, and is willing to push on.
In a way, it's a good thing if you're siding with the mages and letting him live: this is going to cause a war, and if he's going to fight in it, he may need that ruthlessness and willingness to do whatever it takes to get through the violence of the coming storm.
Unlike hardening Alistair and Leliana in a single conversation, Hawke can do it unconsciously to Anders over the course of years, and the end result is someone who may well be less kind and compassionate, but could also be a stronger, more focused leader or fighter.

[sassperella]

It's a difficult choice, but I think I'll probably still always friendmance him. However, if I ever did go rivalry again (I did it once for science) with the correct ending at the chantry if they ever fix the bug, I personally would never get him to side with the templars. I personally believe that when rivalmanced, if Vengeance is strong enough to take over Anders whenever he wants and do things Anders finds abhorrant then the only real merciful thing to do would be to kill him, which I believe is reflected in the correct rivalry dialog. He'd be so broken by then and his ability to keep any of the Anders personality seems to be dwindling through the game on the rivalry path and he fights kicking and screaming against it. The only reason I could put him through that would be if he could be separated from Vengeance and to be honest, even if the option was there I think it would destroy Anders if he were separated and had to face the enormity of his actions without Vengeance to prop him up, especially on the rivalry path. He may survive it mentally on the friendship path, but that path merges him further with Vengeance and so would almost certainly preclude any chance of separation anyway.

So in the end I will still friendmance him, even if that means dealing with the shift in his moral compass that the merge may cause, because at the end of the day, my Hawkes couldn't completely break someone they were in love with like that, and as my Hawkes don't metagame, they may say 'wtf were you thinking merging with a spirit?' but wouldn't support the templars or the circle or anything that rivalling Anders entails, and would certainly support him in his cause, even though they may not always agree with his methods (though some would).

[GailRana]

highcastle wrote...
I think the closest you come is when Anders approaches you about the nonexistent potion. He says merging with Justice was wrong, and you can say (paraphrasing), "That's not true. You've been doing much better at controlling him." So it's not so much encouraging Anders to embrace that side of him as acknowledge he's been trying to control it.

hm... i would have taken that to be more of her being encouraging about his attempts to keep justice at bay the last three years (i think the codex said something about how he was doing better, but then seemed to be slipping lately). i guess it does look pretty pro-justice...

[highcastle]

Ninche wrote...

I did a sort of relationship study of both friend and rival path the other day and discoevered another angle: A fully rivalmanced Anders who is spared by Hawke who then sides with the templars, has lost all his convictions and passion for his cause - he will now follow Hawke's decisions blindly even if it means going against everything he's been fighting for for years, but it also means (this is speculation since I have no way of knowing) that now Anders is free to dedicate himself to Hawke as much as possible between feeling guilty and blacking out as vengeance takes over.

A fully friendmanced Anders who has just started a revolution and has been spared by a mage siding Hawke will gladly jump into the melee and fight - regardless of Hawke decision to be with him or not - the cause remains Anders' greatest purpose.

Also David Gaider said somewhere that, indeed, Anders wants to die - alot, and in a way keeping him alive prolonges his struggles and pain and the general tragedy of his life.

Fair enough, but do you need to be the most important thing in Anders' life, or can you except than some things are more important than Hawke? I know in RL my significant other is never going to be the most important thing in the world to me. There's too much else I'm passionate about, have been passionate about, and will continue being passionate about in the future. So rivalmancing Anders just so he'll place you in front of his cause seems kind of selfish. And blindly following Hawke's choices doesn't seem healthy, either. It basically turns him into a slave with no convictions, and for me personally, Anders is attractive in large part because of his convictions.

As to whether Anders wants to die, this may well be the case. So when does suicide become acceptable? Is there no chance Anders can have a happy life after this? Should we just allow him to give into despair? I have an uncle who committed suicide and a good friend who attempted it as a teenager. No one can say if my uncle would have been able to turn things around. He didn't get the help he needed, so the opportunity was lost. My friend did get help. She went through some terrible experiences in her childhood and adolescence, but she's a strong, well-adjusted adult working in the family court system right now. She took something horrific and turned it into something positive. Regardless of Anders' current emotional state, there's no saying the same couldn't be said for him in the future.

Sorry, suicide tends to be one of my hot button issues, and that's how I treat Anders' actions in the endgame. It's an attempt at suicide-by-Hawke.

[Threeparts]

GailRana wrote...

Are there conversation points where you actively encourage Anders to be more justice-y? Because like i said, most of my conversations on the pro-mage path were a lot of "mages need to be free, but not all templars are evil." 

When you first find out about his status as an abomination after dealing with Karl is a good example, as it's before you're firmly on either path.

"I figured a willing host, a friend... It had to be better than playing the demon and haunting some corpse."

Diplomatic agrees with him and leads to him hitting on you and friendship points.
Sarcastic is doubtful and aggressive tells him it was a stupid decision and both lead to him getting angry and gaining in rivalry.

Modifié par Threeparts, 26 avril 2011 - 01:11 .

[highcastle]

Threeparts wrote...

GailRana wrote...

Are there conversation points where you actively encourage Anders to be more justice-y? Because like i said, most of my conversations on the pro-mage path were a lot of "mages need to be free, but not all templars are evil." 

When you first find out about his status as an abomination after dealing with Karl is a good example, as it's before you're firmly on either path.

"I figured a willing host, a friend... It had to be better than playing the demon and haunting some corpse."

Diplomatic agrees with him and leads to him hitting on you and friendship points.
Sarcastic is doubtful and agressive tells him it was a stupid decision and both lead to him getting angry and gaining in rivalry.

There's also hitting on him, which doesn't seem to take any stance at all and hits Anders completely off-guard as one of the most awkwardly timed flirts in history. "Oh, you're confessing that you sold your soul to a spirit of immense cosmic power? Who cares, you're hot!" Oh, flirty!Hawke, your inappropriate timing continues to amuse me.

[YamiSnuffles]

highcastle wrote...

There's also hitting on him, which doesn't seem to take any stance at all and hits Anders completely off-guard as one of the most awkwardly timed flirts in history. "Oh, you're confessing that you sold your soul to a spirit of immense cosmic power? Who cares, you're hot!" Oh, flirty!Hawke, your inappropriate timing continues to amuse me.

Oh man, this. I remember the first time I was playing, I saw that flirt option and I just couldn't do it. It was so horribly inappropriate that I just had to cross my fingers and hope that wasn't my only option to flirt with him. Thankfully it wasn't. Still, really flirty Hawke can be just as inappropriate as always snarky Hawke sometimes.

[Dunizel]

YamiSnuffles wrote...

Threeparts wrote...

My solution would be to have the companions keep track of how the PC responds to specific issues, so that they can agree on one topic and disagree on the other. Not just over the course of a single conversation, but the entirety of the game. If there's a twist in the plot that gives the PC the opportunity to radically change their own beliefs (just as All That Remains gives Hawke a reason to turn against mages), give the player a chance to complete a Questioning Beliefs type quest for themselves, rather than just the NPCs, and have the NPCs track that change. Have conversations that reflect their surprise when a formerly dog-loving PC is terrified of the beasts after being attacked by a rabid mabari and now holds pro-cat views.

I think this would have been good, even if they just implimented it in regards to the LI. Like, have your LI come to you to question you on certain things. For example, if you take on Orana as a slave, have Fenris come to question you about your opinion on slaver. That could then be a make or break point. Or in Act 3, have Anders come to you after you have vocally supported either Meredith or Orsino. Also, you could have him question how Hawke feels about him having spent the last three years with him; this would be a good point for him to talk about what it's been like and a good way for Hawke to say how she feels about his possession.

These are great ideas. It would even fix the issue of the little or no dialogues aside from their personal quests. Even if just for the LI, it would have helped a lot. You could have talked to them more, you could have explained, and maybe even fix "disapproval gains" you maybe had during the quest. It could have been an useful game mechanic too. 

[Ninche]

highcastle wrote...

-self snip-

Fair enough, but do you need to be the most important thing in Anders' life, or can you except than some things are more important than Hawke? I know in RL my significant other is never going to be the most important thing in the world to me. There's too much else I'm passionate about, have been passionate about, and will continue being passionate about in the future. So rivalmancing Anders just so he'll place you in front of his cause seems kind of selfish. And blindly following Hawke's choices doesn't seem healthy, either. It basically turns him into a slave with no convictions, and for me personally, Anders is attractive in large part because of his convictions.

As to whether Anders wants to die, this may well be the case. So when does suicide become acceptable? Is there no chance Anders can have a happy life after this? Should we just allow him to give into despair? I have an uncle who committed suicide and a good friend who attempted it as a teenager. No one can say if my uncle would have been able to turn things around. He didn't get the help he needed, so the opportunity was lost. My friend did get help. She went through some terrible experiences in her childhood and adolescence, but she's a strong, well-adjusted adult working in the family court system right now. She took something horrific and turned it into something positive. Regardless of Anders' current emotional state, there's no saying the same couldn't be said for him in the future.

Sorry, suicide tends to be one of my hot button issues, and that's how I treat Anders' actions in the endgame. It's an attempt at suicide-by-Hawke.

I'm sorry if I provoked painful real life experience associations
- didn't mean to. Also, I was just listing things without stating personal
preference - I am possibly the weakest Hawke of all of you here - I could never
ever rivalmance anders or NOT romance him at all, and obviously, I could never
kill him. I wouldn't kill him even if I thought he was a monster that needed to
be put down - I'm not a fan of the murder knife, I can’t handle executions ,
even if it means risking a paedophile murderer escaping justice in
the Kirkwall courts.

I personally believe in the friendship for all the reasons all of
you have been listing and because I’d rather have a happy Anders 3 year
relationship than fight during the day and have angry sex at night kind of relationship. 

Edit: Oh and I actually find the whole "you are the most importaint thing in my life but there are things more importaint than either of us" thing incredibly hot.  The main reason I don't find Fenris interesting is that he doesn't seem to care about anything but his own past. I'd take the crazy mage with the cause any day, thanks

Modifié par Ninche, 26 avril 2011 - 01:22 .

[YamiSnuffles]

Ninche wrote...

Edit: Oh and I actually find the whole "you are the most importaint thing in my life but there are things more importaint than either of us" thing incredibly hot.  The main reason I don't find Fenris interesting is that he doesn't seem to care about anything but his own past. I'd take the crazy mage with the cause any day, thanks

I agree to Anders' passion for his cause being really hot. I find it, perhaps, innapropriately attractive. When Merrill says to him, in Act 3: "Believing. You do I can tell, in freedom, in mages, in good spirits and bad templars. With more fire than the sun." It just makes me go all, "Oh Mister Anders" *swoon*. It probably shouldn't, as he is an extremist, but it does.

[highcastle]

Ninche wrote...

I'm sorry if I provoked painful real life experience associations
- didn't mean to. Also, I was just listing things without stating personal
preference - I am possibly the weakest Hawke of all of you here - I could never
ever rivalmance anders or NOT romance him at all, and obviously, I could never
kill him. I wouldn't kill him even if I thought he was a monster that needed to
be put down - I'm not a fan of the murder knife, I can’t handle executions ,
even if it means risking a paedophile murderer escaping justice in
the Kirkwall courts.

I personally believe in the friendship for all the reasons all of
you have been listing and because I’d rather have a happy Anders 3 year
relationship than fight during the day and have angry sex at night kind of relationship. 

Edit: Oh and I actually find the whole "you are the most importaint thing in my life but there are things more importaint than either of us" thing incredibly hot.  The main reason I don't find Fenris interesting is that he doesn't seem to care about anything but his own past. I'd take the crazy mage with the cause any day, thanks

I've come to terms with most of them, which is probably why I can bring them up in a discussion of a video game. I just tend to get a bit passionate (or Justicey, maybe?), so I can come off a bit strong. I wasn't trying to personally attack you at all. I've had this argument before. There are people who claim just because Anders wants to die that makes it alright to kill him. They really see nothing wrong with it, and I'd argue there's something very wrong with it.

[Ninche]

YamiSnuffles wrote...

 I find it, perhaps, innapropriately attractive. 

I think this sums up my feelings well ^^ There is alot about Anders I find innapropriately attractive - it's sort of awesome to be the hot headed revolutionary's girl.

Just finished reading Tempering Justice - was SO good   

I think I might re-read the Second Opinion one now *cough* just to see if it's as good as I remember 

[Threeparts]

I added it to the playlist a while back, but the whole 'my boyfriend is a revolutionary' thing always makes me think of Crowded House's Don't Dream It's Over.
For all the **** that Hawke and Anders go through in Kirkwall, it's a wonderfully uplifting, hopeful song to open up the new chapter in their lives.

There is freedom within,
There is freedom without,
Try to catch the deluge in a paper cup

There's a battle ahead,
Many battles are lost,
But you'll never see the end of the road
while you're travelling with me

Hey now, hey now
Don't dream it's over
Hey now, hey now
When the world comes in

They come, they come
To build a wall between us
We know they won't win

Modifié par Threeparts, 26 avril 2011 - 02:04 .

[Sialater]

highcastle wrote...

Ninche wrote...

I'm sorry if I provoked painful real life experience associations
- didn't mean to. Also, I was just listing things without stating personal
preference - I am possibly the weakest Hawke of all of you here - I could never
ever rivalmance anders or NOT romance him at all, and obviously, I could never
kill him. I wouldn't kill him even if I thought he was a monster that needed to
be put down - I'm not a fan of the murder knife, I can’t handle executions ,
even if it means risking a paedophile murderer escaping justice in
the Kirkwall courts.

I personally believe in the friendship for all the reasons all of
you have been listing and because I’d rather have a happy Anders 3 year
relationship than fight during the day and have angry sex at night kind of relationship. 

Edit: Oh and I actually find the whole "you are the most importaint thing in my life but there are things more importaint than either of us" thing incredibly hot.  The main reason I don't find Fenris interesting is that he doesn't seem to care about anything but his own past. I'd take the crazy mage with the cause any day, thanks

I've come to terms with most of them, which is probably why I can bring them up in a discussion of a video game. I just tend to get a bit passionate (or Justicey, maybe?), so I can come off a bit strong. I wasn't trying to personally attack you at all. I've had this argument before. There are people who claim just because Anders wants to die that makes it alright to kill him. They really see nothing wrong with it, and I'd argue there's something very wrong with it.

Heh, Do they also argue it's OK to kill Zev since he was seeking Suicide By Warden?

[SurelyForth]

Threeparts wrote...

I added it to the playlist a while back, but the whole 'my boyfriend is a revolutionary' thing always makes me think of Crowded House's Don't Dream It's Over.
For all the **** that Hawke and Anders go through in Kirkwall, it's a wonderfully uplifting, hopeful song to open up the new chapter in their lives.

There is freedom within,
There is freedom without,
Try to catch the deluge in a paper cup

There's a battle ahead,
Many battles are lost,
But you'll never see the end of the road
while you're travelling with me

Hey now, hey now
Don't dream it's over
Hey now, hey now
When the world comes in

They come, they come
To build a wall between us
We know they won't win

That's pretty perfect. Huh. It's one of my favorite songs and I never even considered it as part of my Anders/Writing soundtrack.

[Inzhuna]

Threeparts wrote...

I added it to the playlist a while back, but the whole 'my boyfriend is a revolutionary' thing always makes me think of Crowded House's Don't Dream It's Over.
For all the **** that Hawke and Anders go through in Kirkwall, it's a wonderfully uplifting, hopeful song to open up the new chapter in their lives.

There is freedom within,
There is freedom without,
Try to catch the deluge in a paper cup

There's a battle ahead,
Many battles are lost,
But you'll never see the end of the road
while you're travelling with me

Hey now, hey now
Don't dream it's over
Hey now, hey now
When the world comes in

They come, they come
To build a wall between us
We know they won't win

D'awww. I got all teary-eyed.

[SurelyForth]

Drowsy thread is drowsy today! We need some Ser Pounce-a-lot to revive us.


by sandara

Modifié par SurelyForth, 26 avril 2011 - 03:21 .

[Dreaming-in-Shadow]

Good grief this is depressing.
I'm not sure which would be the best course if Anders survives, because we have no idea what's going to happen.
Is it wise for him to struggle on against a demon, while ignoring the cause that was once everything to him? With only the support of one man/woman to keep him going?
Or is it better to encourage his ruthless extremity, and allow him to bind himself to a spirit that not only has no place in the real world (Justice is a fine idea, but truly it doesn't exist beyond the world of ideas) - but is corrupted by hate and rage? Will that further remove him from being human? Will there actually be anything left of (what used to be) Anders there?

Ugh... maybe it would have been kinder to kill him.
I don't see Hawke and Anders' relationship surviving, but without seeing what will happen...

...fingers crossed, eh?

This is one of the best and worst things about the Dragon Age series. There is no good, or bad, and you don't always know if there will be consequences. It's like you're caught between a rock, a hard place, and in the meantime you're standing in hell.
Even the selfish courses of action don't necessarily guaranty your happiness.

[Mistress Tasharra]

Dreaming-in-Shadow wrote...

Good grief this is depressing.
I'm not sure which would be the best course if Anders survives, because we have no idea what's going to happen.
Is it wise for him to struggle on against a demon, while ignoring the cause that was once everything to him? With only the support of one man/woman to keep him going?
Or is it better to encourage his ruthless extremity, and allow him to bind himself to a spirit that not only has no place in the real world (Justice is a fine idea, but truly it doesn't exist beyond the world of ideas) - but is corrupted by hate and rage? Will that further remove him from being human? Will there actually be anything left of (what used to be) Anders there?

Ugh... maybe it would have been kinder to kill him.
I don't see Hawke and Anders' relationship surviving, but without seeing what will happen...

...fingers crossed, eh?

This is one of the best and worst things about the Dragon Age series. There is no good, or bad, and you don't always know if there will be consequences. It's like you're caught between a rock, a hard place, and in the meantime you're standing in hell.
Even the selfish courses of action don't necessarily guaranty your happiness.

I'm a horrible person, and have to admit that one of the things that I enjoy about a Friendmanced Anders is the possibilites of what happens after the end-game in regards to Hawke and Anders and their relationship.

There is something disturbingly appealing about the idea of Anders dragging Hawke down with him as the relationship progresses, even to the point where Hawke may have to compromise his/her own beliefs (or perhaps Anders' is infectious and the downward spiral is a more gradual, unconcious thing).

There's a lot of oppertunites in the game which allows for the roleplaying of Hawke's progression in that regard, I think. To make him/her just as dependant on Anders as Anders is on Hawke, and it's an interesting thing I like to play with.

With my canon Hawke, I've always imagined that after they run off together, if if they stay at eachother's side, how much can Hawke really take before he breaks?

A Rivalmance may break Anders, but a Friendmance could just as easily break Hawke, if your Hawke is the type to break, and I get a sick pleasure from that idea.

Random thoughts are random, sorry.