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[highcastle]

YamiSnuffles wrote...

Yeah, this is what I would think. Although, I think David Gaider said something along the lines of he didn't think the Divine would actually approve Meredith's request for the Rite. It does seem like the best way to limit the loss of lives when compared to a Divine March. But yeah, it could just be that she thinks getting rid of Kirkwall on a whole is the better option, even if it costs more lives, just because Kirkwall is such a crazy place. Also, there is the fact that there are non-mages helping with the mage underground. If this much is known, the Divine might see it as best to wipe out not only the mages but all their sympathizers.

I think the whole issue also ties into the veil being so thin in Kirkwall and whatever the Band of Three were researching. There's something not kosher about Kirkwall, and perhaps the Divine knows or suspects what it is and just wants the place wiped off the map.

Regarding Meredith's request for the Right, though, let's not forget it was based on faulty logic. Anders blew up the Chantry, and she pointed the finger at a group of people he wasn't affiliated with. There's no reason for it, and I have to believe an outsider's perspective would call her on it. Though this is the Chantry we're talking about, so maybe I'm giving them too much credit.

Edit: Oh, top:

Modifié par highcastle, 28 avril 2011 - 12:42 .

[berelinde]

Meredith and Leliana are radicals. They will do what they will do. Leliana may have more respect for the Divine, but I don't think either would let the Divine's orders interfere with personal ambitions. Just saying.

Edit: And Sweet Maker, what a wonderful top!

Modifié par berelinde, 28 avril 2011 - 12:42 .

[mesmerizedish]

berelinde wrote...

Meredith and Leliana are radicals. They will do what they will do. Leliana may have more respect for the Divine, but I don't think either would let the Divine's orders interfere with personal ambitions. Just saying.

Leliana is most certainly not a radical. She'll certainly do whatever she wants and whatever she has to, but she seemed very moderate from what little we saw of her in DAII. Her goal is and has been to prevent a war.

[highcastle]

Oh, I think Leliana is a radical no doubt about it. She raised all my flags in Origins with her somewhat suspect prophetic dreams and the way she'd take no other explanation for them than the-Maker-sent-them-to-me. Even the Guardian, who may have actually known Andraste, calls her on her views, asking why she thinks she's so special.

And yes, everyone needs more m!Hawke/Anders loving.

[YamiSnuffles]

highcastle wrote...


Regarding Meredith's request for the Right, though, let's not forget it was based on faulty logic. Anders blew up the Chantry, and she pointed the finger at a group of people he wasn't affiliated with. There's no reason for it, and I have to believe an outsider's perspective would call her on it. Though this is the Chantry we're talking about, so maybe I'm giving them too much credit.

Except, this isn't when Meredith called for it. That's when she carried it out, but she called for it at least at the start of Act 3. So the request she sent to the Divine must have been concerning something other than Anders. I would assume Meredith just cited all the Blood Mage troubles or something when asking the Divine for permission.

[AnimeAngel90]

Here's another random question. I don't think I got any of those codexes for the Band of Three or whatnot, but from what I've read, the stuff in there pretty much screams that having a Circle in Kirkwall was a Very Bad Idea. Explains the blood mages EVERYWHERE thing a bit too right?

Relating this back to our dear possessed mage - is it only the possession of Justice that makes everything go so wrong with the poor boy's mental state? Or is half the problem the fact that this is all happening in Kirkwall?

Basically, do you think Anders would have turned out any differently, still with Justice, in somewhere other than Kirkwall? Or do you think the end result would be the same, just with a little less crazy on the way there?

[highcastle]

AnimeAngel90 wrote...

Basically, do you think Anders would have turned out any differently, still with Justice, in somewhere other than Kirkwall? Or do you think the end result would be the same, just with a little less crazy on the way there?

I've wondered about this myself. It's a pet theory of mine that the veil being thinner in Kirkwall gives Justice the strength he needs to take control more easily than he would elsewhere. After all, we never see Wynne completely losing it the way Anders did. When her own spirit took over to lend fortitiude to her and her companions, she never seemed to go all glowy and lose her memory.

Then again, the short story in which Anders and Justice merge is set outside of Kirkwall (as far as I know), and Anders is still just as powerless against Justice. So it's a tough call, really.

Back on the subject of the Right, I must have missed the dialogue where Meredith said she'd called for the Right already. I thought she was just executing it independently of sending word to the Divine. But then again, I'm always kind of a jerk to her, so perhaps she just doesn't want to share her plans with apostate-pain-in-her-butt!Hawke.

[Ninche]

Ahh I'm so sorry I disappeared in the middle of this! (real life happened SIGH cant it just leave me be??) I am seriously writing stuff down so I'll run back and read your disuccion very carefully

[Dunizel]

AnimeAngel90 wrote...

Basically, do you think Anders would have turned out any differently, still with Justice, in somewhere other than Kirkwall? Or do you think the end result would be the same, just with a little less crazy on the way there?

Oh yes, I think staying out of Kirkwall and sparing him the view of the conditions of mages in the Gallows would have helped. Still, soon or later he might have ended up in some situation that could fuel up Justice...if anything, for self defence with the Templars. Not to mention the fact that with Justice his purpose has become the freedom of every mage, so he might have ended up in crazy situations anyway...Kirkwall is just overall the worst place, where every possible bad thing happens.
And the Veil is so thin that maybe for Justice/Vengeance is actually easier to take control. 

[Poetics124]

AnimeAngel90 wrote...

Here's another random question. I don't think I got any of those codexes for the Band of Three or whatnot, but from what I've read, the stuff in there pretty much screams that having a Circle in Kirkwall was a Very Bad Idea. Explains the blood mages EVERYWHERE thing a bit too right?

Relating this back to our dear possessed mage - is it only the possession of Justice that makes everything go so wrong with the poor boy's mental state? Or is half the problem the fact that this is all happening in Kirkwall?

Basically, do you think Anders would have turned out any differently, still with Justice, in somewhere other than Kirkwall? Or do you think the end result would be the same, just with a little less crazy on the way there?

I'm thinking so.  I think Kirkwall made Justice much stronger than he should have been in the merger if they had stayed in Ferelden.  But because of the nature of Kirkwall, it made Justice more extreme and more off the hook than he would have been otherwise.

[YamiSnuffles]

highcastle wrote...

Back on the subject of the Right, I must have missed the dialogue where Meredith said she'd called for the Right already. I thought she was just executing it independently of sending word to the Divine. But then again, I'm always kind of a jerk to her, so perhaps she just doesn't want to share her plans with apostate-pain-in-her-butt!Hawke.

Oh, I don't think she ever mentions it. I think it mostly comes from some ambient dialogue from Ser Kerras(?). At the start of Act 3, he'll mention that Meredith sent to the Divine for the Right. There might be more on it, but I can't remember. I do recall it being brought up a few times in this thread, though. Some people were speculating that Anders got wind of it and it was part of what spurred him on to such drastic action, especially since he'd given up the cause for a bit after the Ella thing.

[kromify]

AnimeAngel90 wrote...

Here's another random question. I don't think I got any of those codexes for the Band of Three or whatnot, but from what I've read, the stuff in there pretty much screams that having a Circle in Kirkwall was a Very Bad Idea. Explains the blood mages EVERYWHERE thing a bit too right?

it's in the enigma of kirkwall codex's

[highcastle]

YamiSnuffles wrote...

Oh, I don't think she ever mentions it. I think it mostly comes from some ambient dialogue from Ser Kerras(?). At the start of Act 3, he'll mention that Meredith sent to the Divine for the Right. There might be more on it, but I can't remember. I do recall it being brought up a few times in this thread, though. Some people were speculating that Anders got wind of it and it was part of what spurred him on to such drastic action, especially since he'd given up the cause for a bit after the Ella thing.

Ah, that went right over my head, but I'm glad you mentioned it. I'm doing another replay right now, so I'll be sure to interact more with Kerras. That's actually a really good theory and ties neatly into a plot thread I've been writing about in my fanfic. 

[mesmerizedish]

highcastle wrote...

Oh, I think Leliana is a radical no doubt about it. She raised all my flags in Origins with her somewhat suspect prophetic dreams and the way she'd take no other explanation for them than the-Maker-sent-them-to-me. Even the Guardian, who may have actually known Andraste, calls her on her views, asking why she thinks she's so special.

She was a believer. My Warden was a Dalish and a follower of the Old Ways, and she believed Leliana. The Guardian tested everyone, the Warden included. He was playing Archdemon's Advocate.

It's somehow in vogue to believe in Jesus or Andraste or Blind Io but dismiss outright anything that necessitates the existence of that higher power. Was Leliana crazy? Maybe. But maybe not. And that she believed her visions came from the Maker doesn't make her a "radical."

"Radicals" blow up Chantries.

[highcastle]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

She was a believer. My Warden was a Dalish and a follower of the Old Ways, and she believed Leliana. The Guardian tested everyone, the Warden included. He was playing Archdemon's Advocate.

It's somehow in vogue to believe in Jesus or Andraste or Blind Io but dismiss outright anything that necessitates the existence of that higher power. Was Leliana crazy? Maybe. But maybe not. And that she believed her visions came from the Maker doesn't make her a "radical."

"Radicals" blow up Chantries.

No, what makes her a bit of a radical is an inability to think outside her faith, to accept any other interpretation of events beyond the Maker did it. There's faith, then there's faith overpowering reason. And let's not forget Leliana's is whole-heartedly in support for decimating Kirkwall, warning only Elthina to get out. Where's the concern for the little people, the innocents who will be slaughtered in a Divine March?

[mesmerizedish]

highcastle wrote...

No, what makes her a bit of a radical is an inability to think outside her faith, to accept any other interpretation of events beyond the Maker did it. There's faith, then there's faith overpowering reason. And let's not forget Leliana's is whole-heartedly in support for decimating Kirkwall, warning only Elthina to get out. Where's the concern for the little people, the innocents who will be slaughtered in a Divine March?

Of course she can accept other interpretations. That doesn't mean she has to agree with them. I'm not really happy with the direction her character has seemingly taken in DAII, but she's just doing her job (which apparently involves being a bit of a ****, but okay).

She's not "whole-heartedly in support for decimating Kirkwall." She's just aware that that's what the Divine is going to do. She doesn't make these decisions, and it's not like she can just assassinate the Divine to prevent it.

Her goal is preventing a war (and once war has broken out, stopping it). She's a firefighter, not a saint.

[MG800]

highcastle wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

She was a believer. My Warden was a Dalish and a follower of the Old Ways, and she believed Leliana. The Guardian tested everyone, the Warden included. He was playing Archdemon's Advocate.

It's somehow in vogue to believe in Jesus or Andraste or Blind Io but dismiss outright anything that necessitates the existence of that higher power. Was Leliana crazy? Maybe. But maybe not. And that she believed her visions came from the Maker doesn't make her a "radical."

"Radicals" blow up Chantries.

No, what makes her a bit of a radical is an inability to think outside her faith, to accept any other interpretation of events beyond the Maker did it. There's faith, then there's faith overpowering reason. And let's not forget Leliana's is whole-heartedly in support for decimating Kirkwall, warning only Elthina to get out. Where's the concern for the little people, the innocents who will be slaughtered in a Divine March?

The Maker will protect them. Or guide their souls. 
But honestly they should evacuete as many people as they can, give them time to get out, and burn the city to the ground. Saves the trouble. 

Modifié par MG800, 28 avril 2011 - 01:19 .

[Herr Uhl]

highcastle wrote...

No, what makes her a bit of a radical is an inability to think outside her faith, to accept any other interpretation of events beyond the Maker did it. There's faith, then there's faith overpowering reason. And let's not forget Leliana's is whole-heartedly in support for decimating Kirkwall, warning only Elthina to get out. Where's the concern for the little people, the innocents who will be slaughtered in a Divine March?

If she were to warn everyone, the march would be kind of pointless, wouldn't it?

[highcastle]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Of course she can accept other interpretations. That doesn't mean she has to agree with them. I'm not really happy with the direction her character has seemingly taken in DAII, but she's just doing her job (which apparently involves being a bit of a ****, but okay).

She's not "whole-heartedly in support for decimating Kirkwall." She's just aware that that's what the Divine is going to do. She doesn't make these decisions, and it's not like she can just assassinate the Divine to prevent it.

Her goal is preventing a war (and once war has broken out, stopping it). She's a firefighter, not a saint.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree. My own views on organized religion probably color my view of Leliana's character, and there's just not enough of her in DA2 to make a strong case for her supporting or rejecting the idea of an Exalted March on Kirkwall. Though I'd like to think if she disagreed in some way, she'd warn the city, caution the Divine for patience, or something. Maybe she did and it occured off-screen.

But I don't see her standing up to the Divine even if she disagreed. Her faith seems so blindingly strong I don't really even see her as being capable of dissent against the leader of her religion. Maybe I'm not giving her enough credit, but that's just the impression that I get.

As for goal being preventing war...what does she think is going to happen if Kirkwall's destroyed? Will the other cities in the Free Marches just stand by? That's a huge crusade, and it's silly to think it wouldn't provoke outcry and perhaps even retaliation. 

[YamiSnuffles]

Just to clarify since I brought it up earlier, I loaded up one of my Act 3 saves. At the very start of Act 3, Ser Karras says, "The Knight Commander has sent to Val Rouyeaux for the Rite of Annulment."

This doesn't have anything to do with what you guys are discussing now, but I figured I ought to find the exact quote since I brought it up.

[highcastle]

Herr Uhl wrote...

highcastle wrote...

No, what makes her a bit of a radical is an inability to think outside her faith, to accept any other interpretation of events beyond the Maker did it. There's faith, then there's faith overpowering reason. And let's not forget Leliana's is whole-heartedly in support for decimating Kirkwall, warning only Elthina to get out. Where's the concern for the little people, the innocents who will be slaughtered in a Divine March?

If she were to warn everyone, the march would be kind of pointless, wouldn't it?

That's kind of my point. The March is pointless. How does burning Kirkwall solve anything? How does killing hundreds of thousands of people prevent war? Leliana should realize this. If she were truly compassionate, she'd want to save innocents, not slaughter them.

And thinking the Maker will protect them just reminds me of the parable of the old man on the roof of his house in a flood, swearing God will save him.

[Herr Uhl]

highcastle wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

If she were to warn everyone, the march would be kind of pointless, wouldn't it?

That's kind of my point. The March is pointless. How does burning Kirkwall solve anything? How does killing hundreds of thousands of people prevent war? Leliana should realize this. If she were truly compassionate, she'd want to save innocents, not slaughter them.

And thinking the Maker will protect them just reminds me of the parable of the old man on the roof of his house in a flood, swearing God will save him.

So your point with saying that she should warn everyone is that the march is pointless? My point is that if they're going to have a march, telling everyone that there'll be a march months in advance would make it completely moot.

And as we don't know if the maker isn't an odd concept in a world where there are actual demons and magic abound drawing too many paralells to Christianity is pointless.

[SurelyForth]

So, question:

How spoilery would it be if I changed the thread title to "The Anders Thread: Always Up For A Spot of Iconoclasm"?

Because I am in the mood to tweak, apparently.