57020 réponses à ce sujet

[mesmerizedish]

highcastle wrote...

I think we'll have to agree to disagree. My own views on organized religion probably color my view of Leliana's character, and there's just not enough of her in DA2 to make a strong case for her supporting or rejecting the idea of an Exalted March on Kirkwall. Though I'd like to think if she disagreed in some way, she'd warn the city, caution the Divine for patience, or something. Maybe she did and it occured off-screen.

She warned Hawke, who's the Champion of Kirkwall. It's her job to do what she can to protect the people.

But I don't see her standing up to the Divine even if she disagreed. Her faith seems so blindingly strong I don't really even see her as being capable of dissent against the leader of her religion. Maybe I'm not giving her enough credit, but that's just the impression that I get.

I think her faith in the Maker is stronger than her faith in the Chantry.

As for goal being preventing war...what does she think is going to happen if Kirkwall's destroyed? Will the other cities in the Free Marches just stand by? That's a huge crusade, and it's silly to think it wouldn't provoke outcry and perhaps even retaliation.

Everywhere else is still under the control of the Chantry, though. There wasn't much dissent during the previous Exalted Marches, and I don't see why there would be all of a sudden. But you're right... whether the Chantry razes Kirkwall or terrorist mages do, the result is the same. But the impression I got was that she was only in Kirkwall as a formality. It's clear that the Divine has already made her decision, regardless of what Leliana reports (and Leliana says as much). Maybe I'm giving her too much credit, but I like to think that warning Hawke that her city is going to get crusaded on is more important than whatever her stated mission is.

[EDIT] TOP/SHAMELESS SELF-PROMOTION

Modifié par ishmaeltheforsaken, 28 avril 2011 - 01:45 .

[upsettingshorts]

highcastle wrote...

As for goal being preventing war...what does she think is going to happen if Kirkwall's destroyed? Will the other cities in the Free Marches just stand by? That's a huge crusade, and it's silly to think it wouldn't provoke outcry and perhaps even retaliation. 

It is absolutely plausible for intelligent, reasonable people to think that localized if violent responses in the name of containment would prevent the spread of a larger conflict.  It's not silly if they make a simple miscalculation as to the underlying motives of the opposition and fail to empathize with their position, it's just a failure of judgment, and not something that can be easily dismissed as the result of blind faith.  Otherwise intelligent people can still make catastrophically incorrect decisions given a particular set of circumstances... like Anders, for example.

For evidence of this, see the entire Cold War (1947-1989).

Also, serious discussion over the issues DA2 and Anders raises are basically the only thing that makes character threads anything better than glorified Tumblr feeds anyway.  It's not something that needs to be "diffused" but encouraged.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 28 avril 2011 - 01:50 .

[YamiSnuffles]

ElleMullineux wrote...

Quick someone post a hot Anders pic - this situation needs defusing

The smirk makes everything better.

[Anarya]

Why is Anders dressed like Santa? What's going on here? I don't like this...

[mesmerizedish]

ElleMullineux wrote...

Santa Anders?

No, this is Christmas Anders:

[mesmerizedish]

Anarya wrote...

Why is Anders dressed like Santa? What's going on here? I don't like this...

I also have Chanukkanders and Hardened Homosexual Crusader Anders.

[eleridragon]

highcastle wrote...

But I don't see her standing up to the Divine even if she disagreed. Her faith seems so blindingly strong I don't really even see her as being capable of dissent against the leader of her religion. Maybe I'm not giving her enough credit, but that's just the impression that I get.

Bearing in mind who the current Divine is, Leliana has more ties to her than as just as an employee, really, so I'm not sure whether she would disagree with her, faith or not.

[Herr Uhl]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Hardened Homosexual Crusader Anders.

Rainbow-coloured feathers?

[Anarya]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Anarya wrote...

Why is Anders dressed like Santa? What's going on here? I don't like this...

I also have Chanukkanders and Hardened Homosexual Crusader Anders.

I'm not sure what Hardened Homosexual Crusader Anders would look like. Does this involve rainbows and leather daddy gear or something?

[YamiSnuffles]

SurelyForth wrote...

So, question:

How spoilery would it be if I changed the thread title to "The Anders Thread: Always Up For A Spot of Iconoclasm"?

Because I am in the mood to tweak, apparently.

I think it might be a tad too spoilery. Title changes are always fun though. Maybe something like, "The Anders Thread: Mages Mages Mages Mages JUSTICE JUSTICE."

Modifié par YamiSnuffles, 28 avril 2011 - 01:58 .

[mesmerizedish]

Anarya wrote...

I'm not sure what Hardened Homosexual Crusader Anders would look like. Does this involve rainbows and leather daddy gear or something?

It involves black... and mauve!

[Sialater]

SurelyForth wrote...

So, question:

How spoilery would it be if I changed the thread title to "The Anders Thread: Always Up For A Spot of Iconoclasm"?

Because I am in the mood to tweak, apparently.

Go for it.  Maybe it'll teach people a new vocabulary word.

[highcastle]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

It is absolutely plausible for intelligent, reasonable people to think that localized if violent responses in the name of containment would prevent the spread of a larger conflict.  It's not silly if they make a simple miscalculation as to the underlying motives of the opposition and fail to empathize with their position, it's just a failure of judgment, and not something that can be easily dismissed as the result of blind faith.  Otherwise intelligent people can still make catastrophically incorrect decisions given a particular set of circumstances... like Anders, for example.

For evidence of this, see the entire Cold War (1947-1989).

Also, serious discussion over the issues DA2 and Anders raises are basically the only thing that makes character threads anything better than glorified Tumblr feeds anyway.  It's not something that needs to be "diffused" but encouraged.

Except, historically speaking, localized violent responses don't often end very well. They tend to escalate and feed other resistence movements. For evidence of this, look at what's happening right now in Egypt and Libya. And while Leliana's faith might not be the sole contributing factor for inability to emphathize with the opposition, it still plays a role.

The Chantry is a religion based on domination and crusades. Andraste led one against the Imperium, so now it's the norm for them to go to war against any who challenge their faith. See also: the Dales.

I won't deny that Anders is a radical as well, and that he's just as blind to opposition to his side. This is quite obviously the case. The difference for me is that I agree with his goals (though not his methods), while I don't support the Chantry at all. And that absolutely colors my view on the situation and makes me biased. So...yeah. Sorry about that.

Modifié par highcastle, 28 avril 2011 - 02:03 .

[kromify]

YamiSnuffles wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

So, question:

How spoilery would it be if I changed the thread title to "The Anders Thread: Always Up For A Spot of Iconoclasm"?

Because I am in the mood to tweak, apparently.

I think it might be a tad too spoilery. Title changes are always fun though. Maybe something like, "The Anders Thread: Mages Mages Mages Mages JUSTICE JUSTICE."

"Dragon Age II Companions and NPC Discussion forum (Spoilers)"

i reckon it's okay

Modifié par kromify, 28 avril 2011 - 02:07 .

[upsettingshorts]

highcastle wrote...

Except, historically speaking, localized violent responses don't often end very well.

This is called hindsight.

I don't think it's fair to judge say, Leliana - or even Anders - based upon our meta ideas of the success rate of their particular tactics, or the relative likelihood of success given that they're in a game ("it's fiction of course the good guys are going to win" for example).  But those are my standards, not everyone's.

highcastle wrote...

And while Leliana's faith might not be the sole contributing factor for inability to emphathize with the opposition, it's a contributing factor.

Sure, but people have faith in lots of things and it could lead to similar mental blocks.  That her faith rests with the Maker isn't any more potenitally troublesome than say, the faith Robert McNamara placed - at least early on - in the US military's own field reports about the conduct of the war in Vietnam.  That they were total lies simply didn't occur to him until later.

Ultimately it produces the same effect, but because she believes in the Maker its easier to categorically dismiss - but it shouldn't be.

highcastle wrote...

The difference for me is that I agree with his goals (though not his methods), while I don't support the Chantry at all. And that absolutely colors my view on the situation and makes me biased. So...yeah. Sorry about that.

But it's a fictional world, ultimately your own personal agreement or disagreement regarding motives is irrelevant - neither you nor I live in Thedas - and what happens in this imaginary land means nothing real to us.  If the Templars brutally crush the mage rebellion Anders instigated... it doesn't matter.  I won't go so far as to say this fact should make being able to comment on the situation objectively seem easy or natural to people, but it does seem to be what it boils down to.  

The situation as presented is meant to be interesting.  As observers with no real stakes, we have the freedom to alter the perspective we view the rebellion from at will.  The characters within the world are not so lucky.  

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 28 avril 2011 - 02:11 .

[MorningBird]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Anarya wrote...

Why is Anders dressed like Santa? What's going on here? I don't like this...

I also have Chanukkanders and Hardened Homosexual Crusader Anders.

*INSERT MY LOVE HERE* <3

[highcastle]

Yeah, the Iconoclasm line was said in Awakening, wasn't it? So it shouldn't be too spoilery except for that game.

[mesmerizedish]

MorningBird wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Anarya wrote...

Why is Anders dressed like Santa? What's going on here? I don't like this...

I also have Chanukkanders and Hardened Homosexual Crusader Anders.

*INSERT MY LOVE HERE* <3

<3:wub:<3:wub:<3

[YamiSnuffles]

highcastle wrote...

Yeah, the Iconoclasm line was said in Awakening, wasn't it? So it shouldn't be too spoilery except for that game.

Except that it would probably make people question why it was being used in a DA2 thread title.

It shouldn't matter since this is the Spoiler section, but that never stops from people complaining non-stop about spoilers in titles. Not that I care about that, just saying I think it's spoilery since it was brought up.

[highcastle]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

highcastle wrote...

Except, historically speaking, localized violent responses don't often end very well.

This is called hindsight.

I don't think it's fair to judge say, Leliana - or even Anders - based upon our meta ideas of the success rate of their particular tactics, or the relative likelihood of success given that they're in a game ("it's fiction of course the good guys are going to win" for example).  But those are my standards, not everyone's.

highcastle wrote...

And while Leliana's faith might not be the sole contributing factor for inability to emphathize with the opposition, it's a contributing factor.

Sure, but people have faith in lots of things and it could lead to similar mental blocks.  That her faith rests with the Maker isn't any more potenitally troublesome than say, the faith Robert McNamara placed - at least early on - in the US military's own field reports.  That they were total lies simply didn't occur to him until later.

Ultimately it produces the same effect, but because she believes in the Maker its easier to categorically dismiss - but it shouldn't be.

highcastle wrote...

The difference for me is that I agree with his goals (though not his methods), while I don't support the Chantry at all. And that absolutely colors my view on the situation and makes me biased. So...yeah. Sorry about that.

But it's a fictional world, ultimately your own personal agreement or disagreement regarding motives is irrelevant - neither you nor I live in Thedas - and what happens in this imaginary land means nothing real to us.  If the Templars brutally crush the mage rebellion Anders instigated... it doesn't matter.  I won't go so far as to say this fact should make being able to comment on the situation objectively seem easy or natural to people, but it does seem to be what it boils down to.  

The situation as presented is meant to be interesting.  As observers with no real stakes, we have the freedom to alter the perspective we view the rebellion from at will.  The characters within the world are not so lucky.  

I agree that meta knowledge shouldn't factor in, but you brought up the Cold War so I used more recent real world examples. Even going off of what we know from Thedas' history suggests similar trends, though. The Imperium's attempts to silence Andraste led to full-scale world war. Yes, that's hindsight. But part of studying history is seeing what patterns are there. Humanity tends to be rather blind to this, though. We keep doing the same thing expecting this time it'll work out the way we want. Einstein called that insanity.

As for this being a fictional world, yes it is. But the point of fiction is to make a comment on the real world. You can't totally disavow it from reality. There is a message to be had, and that message applies to our world, our lives. I'm a Lit major, and in one my classes we just had a discussion on the importance of fiction when someone asked, "What does it matter? It's not like it's real anyway." Just because it's "not real" doesn't mean it's unimportant. Every work of fiction is in some ways a reflection of the real.

In this case, I think DA2 asks us to consider religion's role in warfare and when acts of terrorism become justified (if ever). I also think it asks us to investigate the hypocrasy inherent in war. We condemn the other side for actions we're willing to take in the same circumstances.  These are absolutely relevant to today's political and social climate.

I hope I'm making myself clear. I'm posting here in between working on my final paper, and I think all of my clarity and cohesion is going into that and not so much on the forums.

[Anarya]

I don't think the iconoclasm line is too spoilery.

[upsettingshorts]

Oh I understand. I think the difference I'm trying to get across is the idea of commenting as a player on a forum versus perhaps, what it would be reasonable to think if we lived in Thedas.

That probably got confused with the whole "it doesn't matter" part of my post. The idea is, it doesn't matter in the sense that we don't have to pick a side and stick with it. We can move in and out of whatever perspective we want to analyze fiction from at will, be it Anders, or Leliana, or the Divine, or the Templars, or your random Kirkwall citizen because it's not real and we aren't in fact any of these people, nor do we really have anything tangible to do with them.

It's possible to do this in real life too, but it takes an uncommon amount of critical thinking skills and a dedication to objectivity that many people are uncomfortable with - and even then I have doubts as to whether any of us are capable of shaking off our biases fully. It's simply easier with fiction - because there are no stakes.

In short, I don't think there's anything really that ought to prevent us from - for example - switching from defending the Templars to defending the mages within the space of a page on a forum thread.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 28 avril 2011 - 02:29 .

[AnniLau]

YamiSnuffles wrote...


The smirk makes everything better.

RL smirk: