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[SurelyForth]

Ryzaki wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...
Oh, FFS. Ryzaki's just making **** up now.

Anders is just there to defend the mages, and the "blood mages" are Circle mages who are defending their home from Hawke and the templars. Probably because there are innocents, including children, in there who don't deserve to die and they have no other options but to fight for their survival. It's not even clear that the abominations are being summoned, or if the Veil is just that weak in the Gallows that their able to break through on their own, like in the Circle Tower in DAO.

So him showing up and fighting with bloodmages...means he's not fighting with bloodmages? 

 

Okay then. 

You made it sound like he rolls up with some demons and a bunch of random Kirkwall apostates with their sacrificing knives out.

The mages you fight at the Gallows are the same you fight alongside when you side with the mages. If Hawke is helping the templars, they are even more desperate than they would otherwise be and they turn to blood magic to protect themselves from dying (since it's pretty much their only defense against templars). 

I know, I know. You think they should just lay down their lives and blindly accept the punishment that Meredith has decided to mete out. But that doesn't change the fact that a) they are being attacked their only viable defense against their attackers is blood magic and c) Anders isn't encouraging them to use blood magic, he's just there fighting to protect the innocents who have been condemned to death for what he's done. 

[Ryzaki]

SurelyForth wrote...
You made it sound like he rolls up with some demons and a bunch of random Kirkwall apostates with their sacrificing knives out.

The mages you fight at the Gallows are the same you fight alongside when you side with the mages. If Hawke is helping the templars, they are even more desperate than they would otherwise be and they turn to blood magic to protect themselves from dying (since it's pretty much their only defense against templars). 

I know, I know. You think they should just lay down their lives and blindly accept the punishment that Meredith has decided to mete out. But that doesn't change the fact that a) they are being attacked their only viable defense against their attackers is blood magic and c) Anders isn't encouraging them to use blood magic, he's just there fighting to protect the innocents who have been condemned to death for what he's done. 

Eh true. I don't feel like arguing about it. 

Though there's a vast difference in blinding accepting punishment (like Bethany does if you choose to let her be killed) and resorting to demons and bloodmagic. 

And there only viable defense isn't bloodmagic. It's just the easiest option there is. 

Dunizel wrote...

Well, let's say he was there, but he wasn't fighting with the "mages resorting to blood magic" and demons and abominations.

...But that's what he (and a mage supporting Hawke) does. It's not like they're in support of it. But that's who they're fight alongside. Just like a templar Hawke fights with rapists and child killers. Both sides fight alongside rather unsavory people. 

Edit: I f*cking hate nightmare. I'm in more danger from my companions killing me than anyone else. <_< 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 29 avril 2011 - 12:56 .

[Miri1984]

@Ryzaki against Templars, it pretty much is. Templars neutralize regular magic. It's a THING.

[Ryzaki]

Miri1984 wrote...

@Ryzaki against Templars, it pretty much is. Templars neutralize regular magic. It's a THING.

Except in that FMV they don't. Not completely. The mages spells (when the mages finally muster up enough nerve to cast some) do damage. 

I think they can neutralize a certain amount of magic (that they see coming) and they're magically resistant but no means does that make them completely immune to magical damage. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 29 avril 2011 - 12:59 .

[Sable Rhapsody]

Ryzaki wrote...

Miri1984 wrote...

@Ryzaki against Templars, it pretty much is. Templars neutralize regular magic. It's a THING.

Except in that FMV they don't. Not completely. The mages spells (when the mages finally muster up enough nerve to cast some) do damage. 

They still do get roflstomped by the templars, though.  The only reason why any of them survive is because Hawke and co are there.

Meh.  It's a moot point, IMO.  Neither side is pretty, and each side looks worse when you side against them than when you side with them.

[Dreaming-in-Shadow]

Well, theoretically, if you were a mage in the Gallows during the final battles of Act III, would you fight, run like hell, or allow yourself to be killed?

Also, on an unrelated topic that just occured to me that's mildly related to Anders:
Could you do the people-spirit merge thing that Anders and Justice have going on with a very strong willed mage and a demon? (Obviously they'd have some kind of agreement...)

Man, I miss Mouse. He was the most awesome demon ever, and we never saw him again.

Ahem. Back on topic: Andersbutt.

[ipgd]

The circle mages aren't carting around wagons of lyrium to power their spells, so yes, blood magic is the only option they have for fueling the spells that are likely to save their lives.

[Miri1984]

Ryzaki wrote...

Miri1984 wrote...

@Ryzaki against Templars, it pretty much is. Templars neutralize regular magic. It's a THING.

Except in that FMV they don't. Not completely. The mages spells (when the mages finally muster up enough nerve to cast some) do damage. 

I think they can neutralize a certain amount of magic (that they see coming) and they're magically resistant but no means does that make them completely immune to magical damage. 

Game mechanics are necessary in order for a game to work. There can't be enemies out there that your mage hawke isn't able to damage, because that would lessen the awesomeness of said Hawke.

Organised Templars coming in to neutralise the circle are going to cleanse and smite first, not wait for the mages to get off a few fireballs first. Orsino says very clearly that they have no chance against the Templars (when you side with the mages). The only reason you win against them is because you're not all mages. Oh, and plot armour. That stuff too. 

[Sable Rhapsody]

Miri1984 wrote...

Game mechanics are necessary in order for a game to work. There can't be enemies out there that your mage hawke isn't able to damage, because that would lessen the awesomeness of said Hawke.

Well, the necessity of blood magic IS reflected in one game mechanic.

In the end-game fight with Meredith, she does this ridiculously annoying thing in which she completely depletes the stamina and mana bars of your entire party.  Guess who's the only person largely unaffected by her BS?  Blood mage Hawke and Merrill.

[Dreaming-in-Shadow]

ipgd wrote...

The circle mages aren't carting around wagons of lyrium to power their spells, so yes, blood magic is the only option they have for fueling the spells that are likely to save their lives.

Also, it's far harder to dispell or interrupt blood magic.

Also you can gain a few extra meat-shields/swords with blood-slave (+ exploding templars!)
And you can regain health from their corpses with Grave Robber.

Plus hemorrhage is a bloody brilliant spell.

Having Anders on hand for healing kind of helps.

[Heidenreich]

So, completely off topic, I want to go ahead and blame the ladies and gentlemen in this thread for my sudden love of ME2. There was a convo about it.. oh.. 3,4 days ago? And so I went and registered my free coppy (thx EA) and now I'm addicted to THIS game as well.

*nod*

To return to the topic at hand...


Anders isn't siding with blood mages, he's siding with mages. If at that point they're turning to blood magic all around him, well, he doesn't really have any control over it so

[Ashwraith]

Ryzaki wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Hmm, thinking more in deep on it, Lucrosians seem to be the ones that would be most likely to improve mages situation in the long run. Make mages seen more outside circles thus making people used to them and heighten the influence of the circles.

Aquetarians want the status quo and Libertarians are taking the short route.

Agreed. You don't want to ****** your money makers off. (Not to mention the people who would pay for their services). 

You do, however, want to shake them whenever necessary.

[Ryzaki]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...
They still do get roflstomped by the templars, though.  The only reason why any of them survive is because Hawke and co are there.

Meh.  It's a moot point, IMO.  Neither side is pretty, and each side looks worse when you side against them than when you side with them.

Them getting rolfstomped probably had more to do with the mages not being used to combat. (Why yeah let's not spam the obvious chokepoint with spells.  ) Than magic being instantly neutralized. 

True. 

Miri1984 wrote...
 Game mechanics are necessary in order for a game to work. There can't be enemies out there that your mage hawke isn't able to damage, because that would lessen the awesomeness of said Hawke.

Organised Templars coming in to neutralise the circle are going to cleanse and smite first, not wait for the mages to get off a few fireballs first. Orsino says very clearly that they have no chance against the Templars (when you side with the mages). The only reason you win against them is because you're not all mages. Oh, and plot armour. That stuff too. 

Except the FMV isn't bound by the laws of game mechanics and Hawke isn't in the FMV. There's no reason for it not to be a roflcurbstomp (which it is regardless but not because the mages are using their spells to no effect). 

Except to cleanse and smite they have to go through the narrow little chokepoint that anyone with half a brian would've laid traps or tried to do something. Except the mages apparently.  Despite the fact that they had to time to prepare. And the templars obviously don't prepare for mages spamming that chokepoint because they don't start cleansing until the mages start casting spells. 

Does help that Cleanse doesn't help against damage spells. And smite seems to require you be a certain distance from the target (this might be gameplay though could've sworn in DAO you didn't need to be close to use Holy Smite.) 

I could forgive this. But Meredith gave them time. 

As for that it's more the fact that the templars have an entire army coming to purge the circle (heck Meredith even tells Orsino she has more people coming). So it's not just nulling magic they have an army on their side, a well trained army where the mages have practical battle experience at best. 

Though yeah the only reason Hawke wins (which Hawke doesn't really it's more the templars let him/her go) is plot armor. 

Really that FMV. It just...they were funnelled. 

Mages do the same thing with Hawke and Co. They just stare and attack with their staves and wait until Hawke runs up to them and cuts them down before trying to do anything else. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 29 avril 2011 - 01:17 .

[Ryzaki]

Ashwraith wrote...
You do, however, want to shake them whenever necessary.

 

And now the image of Anders shaking his ass will not leave my mind. Thanks for that. 

[Dreaming-in-Shadow]

Ashwraith wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Hmm, thinking more in deep on it, Lucrosians seem to be the ones that would be most likely to improve mages situation in the long run. Make mages seen more outside circles thus making people used to them and heighten the influence of the circles.

Aquetarians want the status quo and Libertarians are taking the short route.

Agreed. You don't want to ****** your money makers off. (Not to mention the people who would pay for their services). 

You do, however, want to shake them whenever necessary.

Spending money is blasphemy.
That's what Lucrosians are for - so the other mages can spend the Lucrosian's money and horde their own.

[SmilingDeceit]

Heidenreich wrote...

So, completely off topic, I want to go ahead and blame the ladies and gentlemen in this thread for my sudden love of ME2. There was a convo about it.. oh.. 3,4 days ago? And so I went and registered my free coppy (thx EA) and now I'm addicted to THIS game as well.

*nod*

To return to the topic at hand...


Anders isn't siding with blood mages, he's siding with mages. If at that point they're turning to blood magic all around him, well, he doesn't really have any control over it so

Glad to be of service, also not enough Thane lovers in here. I love Garrus too, but Thaaaaaane.

And if I was a mage in the Gallows at the end of Act 3, I would try to fight, but I'm crazy and might turn to blood magic! 

Totally not trying to post this between healing a raid, honest.

Modifié par SmilingDeceit, 29 avril 2011 - 01:16 .

[Ashwraith]

Dreaming-in-Shadow wrote...

Man, I miss Mouse. He was the most awesome demon ever, and we never saw him again.

I miss him too. ;3;
I remember being quite upset that he never made a reappearance. (That we know of.)
So upset, in fact, that I put him in a blender with Tom Waits, and made a roleplaying character out of the resulting mess.

[Dreaming-in-Shadow]

Ryzaki wrote...

Sable Rhapsody wrote...
They still do get roflstomped by the templars, though.  The only reason why any of them survive is because Hawke and co are there.

Meh.  It's a moot point, IMO.  Neither side is pretty, and each side looks worse when you side against them than when you side with them.

Them getting rolfstomped probably had more to do with the mages not being used to combat. (Why yeah let's not spam the obvious chokepoint with spells.  ) Than magic being instantly neutralized. 

How many spells do they know anyway? They've no tactical experience, and they're panicing. (I doubt they had that much time)
I'm surprised Meredith allowed them to learn offensive spells! ("What use would they have for them?")

Miri1984 wrote...
 Game mechanics are necessary in order for a game to work. There can't be enemies out there that your mage hawke isn't able to damage, because that would lessen the awesomeness of said Hawke.

Organised Templars coming in to neutralise the circle are going to cleanse and smite first, not wait for the mages to get off a few fireballs first. Orsino says very clearly that they have no chance against the Templars (when you side with the mages). The only reason you win against them is because you're not all mages. Oh, and plot armour. That stuff too. 

Except the FMV isn't bound by the laws of game mechanics and Hawke isn't in the FMV. There's no reason for it not to be a roflcurbstomp (which it is but not because the mages are using their spells to no effect). 

Except to cleanse and smite they have to go through the narrow little chokepoint that anyone with half a brian would've laid traps or tried to do something. Except the mages apparently.  Despite the fact that they had to time to prepare. 

And where would they get traps, may I ask?
They've been isolated from the world for Maker knows how long, and you really think Meredith allows any opportunities for the mages to get their hands on traps?

[nekhbet]

This thread needs some

[GailRana]

that pic still kills me every time

[YamiSnuffles]

This thread needs more

[bleetman]

I try to pretend that cutscene doesn't exist, for various reasons. Aside from the kinds of things coming up here, where the bloody heck do all those templars go afterwards, anyway? Once Tempalr Supporter Hawke appears, the place is bizarrely void of them.

[Ryzaki]

Dreaming-in-Shadow wrote...
And where would they get traps, may I ask?
They've been isolated from the world for Maker knows how long, and you really think Meredith allows any opportunities for the mages to get their hands on traps?

Hello Paralysis Glyph! That's is what one would usually consider a trap.  

[Dreaming-in-Shadow]

Ashwraith wrote...

Dreaming-in-Shadow wrote...

Man, I miss Mouse. He was the most awesome demon ever, and we never saw him again.

I miss him too. ;3;
I remember being quite upset that he never made a reappearance. (That we know of.)
So upset, in fact, that I put him in a blender with Tom Waits, and made a roleplaying character out of the resulting mess.

I know. 
I want him to return so that my Surana can make a deal with him and they can become a kickass Anders/Justice/Flemeth(?) style Pride-Abomination together!

Don't ask me why. I don't even know if that's possible...

...how did that work out?

[Ashwraith]

Dreaming-in-Shadow wrote...

And where would they get traps, may I ask?
They've been isolated from the world for Maker knows how long, and you really think Meredith allows any opportunities for the mages to get their hands on traps?

Well, I have an opal shard, a rusty spoon, and some twine...

Dreaming-in-Shadow wrote...

...how did that work out?

Quite well, actually. He was a hell of a lot of fun to play. X3

Modifié par Ashwraith, 29 avril 2011 - 01:24 .