57019 réponses à ce sujet

[TheGoddess0fWar]

I have heard Anders will move in with you during Act 2. Is this true? Or is it Act 3 for every LI you extend the offer to?

[darkrose]

Nivilant wrote...
Particularly fun watching glowy-blue Anders square off with glowy-red Meredith during the final fight. Sort of poetic really.

It was a great Star Wars homage, especially with Meredith's red lightsaber.

[Tasmen]

Lady Jess wrote...

I can't even GET the quest from stupid Fenris. Is that going to screw my ending up by not having that amulet gift?

Have you gone out of town yet with Fenris?  You have to leave Kirkwall with him in the party to trigger his personal quest.  Wounded Coast is where I took him.

[panamakira]

I don't think I could kill Anders. Unless he goes even more mad than before. Like Justice permanently takes over. Which the way I see it could happen down the line. I want to help mages really bad but not his way. I really love his character despite what in my opinion is a wrong way about doing things for mages. I'd rather they go around gathering an army and do the Spartacus thing and get a hold of a Circle, kick out Templars and form a home base somewhere. And then recruit all the mages they can get and declare an all out war against Templars. Rather than sneaking about and blowing up Chantries when innocent people who perhaps are not as anti-mage as Anders thinks. To me there's a difference. You're giving people who are innocent and option to fight or run away. They could probably gather non-mages allies too.

I'm fine with a revolution and a war but I don't believe in killing a few to save the many unless you are giving them the option to fight. I think like @darkrose mentioned. This could drag a lot of other group unrelated to the Chantry's scrutiny.

*sigh* But I love Anders, what can I do? I feel sorry the most for Lady Hawke. I'm not a big fan of tragic romances either. Grrrrr.....

[Thiefy]

TS2Aggie wrote...
I must admit, though, that what Anders does in the end game has me really wondering whether he actually loved Hawke like he claimed or if he merely saw her as a means to an end. Is it even possible for a zealot to truly love someone with any real sincerity? Was this something you foresaw being an issue for some players when you wrote him, Ms. Hepler?

You know i didn't even think about this angle, but it makes sense. I did think he kind of fell in love really fast, but I never quite got the "Morrigan" feeling around him either. He doesn't strike me as particularly nefarious.

[nenosronhir]

darkrose wrote...
I suppose it means what you consider worse. Look at any number of historical parallels; acts of terrorism in a repressive state are used as justification for crackdowns--and more importantly, as incitement. Anders has just done the equivalent of blowing up St. Patrick's Cathedral in New York, or Notre Dame; a mage has just destroyed what most Andrasteans believe to be the physical center of their faith. He's lost any possible claim to the moral high ground.

So when someone's kid in your village turns out to be a mage, you don't make her sleep in the barn until the templars come; you shut her in and burn down the barn. All of the goodwill that Anders generated by running the clinic is now gone, or at the very least, overshadowed by his destruction of the Chantry. It's a good bet that the Chantry is going to be much more aggressive about policing mages in the Grey Wardens, thus hampering their effectiveness against the darkspawn--or worse, they're going to discover the (poorly kept) secret of the Joining, and decide that the Wardens are essentially blood mages. And, of course, the Chantry has an excuse to declare an Exalted March on all mages.

The Joining; worst kept secret in Thedas. If they call into question the Joining, any Circle mage in the Wardens has only to bring to light a) the Harrowing, Phylacteries, both practices that the Templars enforce, which are also similar to, if not directly involved with blood magic and demonology.

Anders was not looking to deal with things peacefully. This is why he kills the Grand Cleric. He wants the conflict to come to a head not just in Kirkwall, but across Thedas. Do you think all mages are going lay down their lives to Templar blades when the Divine declares an Exalted March, and the Knight-Commanders of every Circle call for the Rite of Annulment? For that matter, do you think all the Templars, all the Knight-Commanders are immediately going to agree?

He says something similar in the game; either all the mages die fighting now(instead of rotting slowly in their prisons) or they win their freedom. Either way, change is coming.

For that matter, you can look in the game world. The elves lost their second homeland because on top of humans not trusting them already, the Chantry used--or manufactured--tales of atrocity to justify their Exalted March.

The story of the Dales is very much the same; the elves would not submit to Chantry law and struck the first blow when pushed too far. Where are they now? The Dalish have a kind of freedom, have regained some of what they lost, and by the end of Origins are beginning to have a foothold in Thedas again with a tentative new homeland. Even the lives of City Elves are looking up when their hahren is given a place in the Landsmeet. It's not perfect, but it's better than the Circle of Magi.

On a much smaller scale, the Tabris origin Warden is blamed for Vaughan's death, whether you killed him or not, and Howe claims that's the reason for the purge. Hey, we're fighting terrorists--anything's justified!

Hell, the Warden can do this his/herself during the uprising from the farmers at the Vigil. This is no longer about whether or not either faction can justify themselves - they can't. Chantry wants absolute control. Mages want freedom(Anders initiates this, yes, but from the way the other Circles react to what happens in Kirkwall, I think it's safe to assume they want it, too), and show themselves willing to fight for it at last.

panamakira wrote...

I don't think I could kill Anders. Unless he goes even more mad than before. Like Justice permanently takes over. Which the way I see it could happen down the line. I want to help mages really bad but not his way. I really love his character despite what in my opinion is a wrong way about doing things for mages. I'd rather they go around gathering an army and do the Spartacus thing and get a hold of a Circle, kick out Templars and form a home base somewhere. And then recruit all the mages they can get and declare an all out war against Templars. Rather than sneaking about and blowing up Chantries when innocent people who perhaps are not as anti-mage as Anders thinks. To me there's a difference. You're giving people who are innocent and option to fight or run away. They could probably gather non-mages allies too.

I'm fine with a revolution and a war but I don't believe in killing a few to save the many unless you are giving them the option to fight. I think like @darkrose mentioned. This could drag a lot of other group unrelated to the Chantry's scrutiny.

*sigh*
But I love Anders, what can I do? I feel sorry the most for Lady Hawke. I'm not a big fan of tragic romances either. Grrrrr.....

I don't get the feeling that he intends to continue doing this. He had a specific goal in mind with destroying this Chantry and this Grand Cleric - to begin the conflict. The mages who escape the slaughter in Kirkwall flee to other Circles which in turn throw off their oppressors; he accomplishes his goal of starting the war with this act, and similar acts would have no further benefit to the cause.

Modifié par nenosronhir, 12 mars 2011 - 04:11 .

[Darkannex]

Batteries wrote...

Darkannex wrote...

Spoilerfiffics
His discussion with Fenris asking if the slave ever considered killing himself was telling. As was his final comment. I really think Anders is as much a victim as anyone. 

Do you know what both of them say specifically?

I wish I did. I don't though. It essentially boiled down to Fenris saying there are worse things than death, and Anders saying that there are worse things than living (or vice versa). Darn, now Im annoyed I don't remember. 

But the bottom line was, when I heard it...it was really indicative of how broken and desperate Anders was. I mean...the mage that survived all he did, and never stopped escaping the chantry - no matter how many times they locked him back up...the GW who left the order after offering himself to Justice out of friendship...the one who always had a snarky comment - this man was contemplating suicide. It shows how far he had fallen, to the point where he couldn't even see a way out. 

Telling Hawke she was the one bright point in his life is romantic-but incredibly chilling in this context. That's not only love, it's desperation. 

Also, Justice disapproves of relationship with Hawke...Anders says as much, so I really don't think this was a situation where Anders went in intending on using you. The fact he DOES use you...well that makes me pretty annoyed, lol. 

[nenosronhir]

Uploaded Tevinter Chantry Amulet cutscene! Sorry about the sound being so low. 

"The Black Divine, stalking Thedas, making it unsafe for kittens and virgins." *gigglesnort*

[Lady Jess]

Tasmen wrote...

Lady Jess wrote...

I can't even GET the quest from stupid Fenris. Is that going to screw my ending up by not having that amulet gift?

Have you gone out of town yet with Fenris?  You have to leave Kirkwall with him in the party to trigger his personal quest.  Wounded Coast is where I took him.

I've taken him all over the bone pile, wounded coast, the mountain and nothing.

[nenosronhir]

Lady Jess wrote...

Tasmen wrote...

Lady Jess wrote...

I can't even GET the quest from stupid Fenris. Is that going to screw my ending up by not having that amulet gift?

Have you gone out of town yet with Fenris?  You have to leave Kirkwall with him in the party to trigger his personal quest.  Wounded Coast is where I took him.

I've taken him all over the bone pile, wounded coast, the mountain and nothing.

What's your friendship/rivalry meter at? It might have to be 50%+ down one of the sides to trigger.

[Lady Jess]

nenosronhir wrote...

Lady Jess wrote...

Tasmen wrote...

Lady Jess wrote...

I can't even GET the quest from stupid Fenris. Is that going to screw my ending up by not having that amulet gift?

Have you gone out of town yet with Fenris?  You have to leave Kirkwall with him in the party to trigger his personal quest.  Wounded Coast is where I took him.

I've taken him all over the bone pile, wounded coast, the mountain and nothing.

What's your friendship/rivalry meter at? It might have to be 50%+ down one of the sides to trigger.

hh probably still neutral. I found a gift but that put me at +15 rivalry. Dude is a pain. I'll keep my Anders...lol

[panamakira]

nenosronhir wrote...

panamakira wrote...

I don't think I could kill Anders. Unless he goes even more mad than before. Like Justice permanently takes over. Which the way I see it could happen down the line. I want to help mages really bad but not his way. I really love his character despite what in my opinion is a wrong way about doing things for mages. I'd rather they go around gathering an army and do the Spartacus thing and get a hold of a Circle, kick out Templars and form a home base somewhere. And then recruit all the mages they can get and declare an all out war against Templars. Rather than sneaking about and blowing up Chantries when innocent people who perhaps are not as anti-mage as Anders thinks. To me there's a difference. You're giving people who are innocent and option to fight or run away. They could probably gather non-mages allies too.

I'm fine with a revolution and a war but I don't believe in killing a few to save the many unless you are giving them the option to fight. I think like @darkrose mentioned. This could drag a lot of other group unrelated to the Chantry's scrutiny.

*sigh*
But I love Anders, what can I do? I feel sorry the most for Lady Hawke. I'm not a big fan of tragic romances either. Grrrrr.....

I don't get the feeling that he intends to continue doing this. He had a specific goal in mind with destroying this Chantry and this Grand Cleric - to begin the conflict. The mages who escape the slaughter in Kirkwall flee to other Circles which in turn throw off their oppressors; he accomplishes his goal of starting the war with this act, and similar acts would have no further benefit to the cause.

We don't know that. Anders admits his life and the life of anybody else is LESS important than the cause. He's obviously willing to sacrifice the few for the many. Plus at the part when he's confronting Orsino and Meredith both Justice and Anders speak at the same time which lead me to believe that we can't separate the two anymore. They're one entity already. For all we know maybe Anders thinks that blowing up Chantries will be the most effective way to weaken the Chantry overall because they'll realize the mages are going all out, which isn't necessarily the best way.

I just can't imagine if children or some other people who were completely unrelated to the conflict where in the Chantry like anybody would be hanging out in a church without being a Chantry fanatic, HAD to die because of the mages' cause according to Anders.....

I just can't.........it's a really difficult situation for me to come to terms with.

[leggywillow]

Lady Jess wrote...

hh probably still neutral. I found a gift but that put me at +15 rivalry. Dude is a pain. I'll keep my Anders...lol

If you're pro-mage, it's extremely easy to get Fenris's rivalry up.  I dragged him along with my mage Hawke, and his rivalry bar was close to 3/4 full before the end of Act 1.  XD  It works nicely because that generally gets Anders's friendship way up as well.

[Lady Jess]

Well we're at the end now, chantry go boom. And not even a HUG for defending him, geez!!!

[panamakira]

Lady Jess wrote...

Well we're at the end now, chantry go boom. And not even a HUG for defending him, geez!!!

LOL I know! It's like I threw everybody against me for you. Show me some love, sugah!

[leggywillow]

panamakira wrote...

LOL I know! It's like I threw everybody against me for you. Show me some love, sugah!

You rival-manced him, right?  Were you just anti-mage/pro-templar the entire time?  I think I want to try that on my warrior, once I get around to her.

[Lady Jess]

panamakira wrote...

Lady Jess wrote...

Well we're at the end now, chantry go boom. And not even a HUG for defending him, geez!!!

LOL I know! It's like I threw everybody against me for you. Show me some love, sugah!

I though I chose wrong dialog or something...

[maselphie]

Darkannex wrote...

I wish I did. I don't though. It essentially boiled down to Fenris saying there are worse things than death, and Anders saying that there are worse things than living (or vice versa). Darn, now Im annoyed I don't remember.

Oh hey, I remember that. Heard it twice. Anders basically starts the convo, "Ever thought about killing yourself?" which was like whoa, what? Fenris is like "no, why?" "to escape slavery" "there are worse things than slavery" and Anders says "there are worse things than death". So yeah, the opposite of what you have. Probably. Just my memory from hearing it twice.

[nenosronhir]

panamakira wrote...

nenosronhir wrote...

panamakira wrote...

I don't think I could kill Anders. Unless he goes even more mad than before. Like Justice permanently takes over. Which the way I see it could happen down the line. I want to help mages really bad but not his way. I really love his character despite what in my opinion is a wrong way about doing things for mages. I'd rather they go around gathering an army and do the Spartacus thing and get a hold of a Circle, kick out Templars and form a home base somewhere. And then recruit all the mages they can get and declare an all out war against Templars. Rather than sneaking about and blowing up Chantries when innocent people who perhaps are not as anti-mage as Anders thinks. To me there's a difference. You're giving people who are innocent and option to fight or run away. They could probably gather non-mages allies too.

I'm fine with a revolution and a war but I don't believe in killing a few to save the many unless you are giving them the option to fight. I think like @darkrose mentioned. This could drag a lot of other group unrelated to the Chantry's scrutiny.

*sigh*
But I love Anders, what can I do? I feel sorry the most for Lady Hawke. I'm not a big fan of tragic romances either. Grrrrr.....

I don't get the feeling that he intends to continue doing this. He had a specific goal in mind with destroying this Chantry and this Grand Cleric - to begin the conflict. The mages who escape the slaughter in Kirkwall flee to other Circles which in turn throw off their oppressors; he accomplishes his goal of starting the war with this act, and similar acts would have no further benefit to the cause.

We don't know that. Anders admits his life and the life of anybody else is LESS important than the cause. He's obviously willing to sacrifice the few for the many. Plus at the part when he's confronting Orsino and Meredith both Justice and Anders speak at the same time which lead me to believe that we can't separate the two anymore. They're one entity already. For all we know maybe Anders thinks that blowing up Chantries will be the most effective way to weaken the Chantry overall because they'll realize the mages are going all out, which isn't necessarily the best way.

I just can't imagine if children or some other people who were completely unrelated to the conflict where in the Chantry like anybody would be hanging out in a church without being a Chantry fanatic, HAD to die because of the mages' cause according to Anders.....

I just can't.........it's a really difficult situation for me to come to terms with.

He also says "Thank you for my life. I'll try not to make such a mess of it this time." when you tell him to go (and I think when you keep him at your side). I never believed there would be an opportunity to separate Anders and Jusitce after Hepler's short; if anything, it feels to me like Anders finally comes to terms with himself in the follow-up dialogue. He is Anders and Justice; he has the courage to fight for this cause and do what needs to be done, and it feels like it was his indecision and ambivalence through the second Act that was tearing his mind apart.

He comes across as more stable/focused/determined in the climax than he was throughout the rest of the game, but that might be me, and I haven't replayed the ending conversation yet(which is still a blur).

Also, keep in mind that when a Knight-Commander invokes the Rite of Annulment, all of the bitty apprentice mages are condemned to death as well, and I imagine that if Meredith had found enough evidence (fabricated, imagined, or otherwise) of blood magic in the tower, she would have condemned them all anyway. If not now, soon, with how hard she was coming down on the mages.

Innocents were going to die (and HAD been dying/turning to bloodmagic/becoming abominations) needlessly either way. Anders did what he had to do to make it mean something more.

[Darkannex]

maselphie wrote...

Darkannex wrote...

I wish I did. I don't though. It essentially boiled down to Fenris saying there are worse things than death, and Anders saying that there are worse things than living (or vice versa). Darn, now Im annoyed I don't remember.

Oh hey, I remember that. Heard it twice. Anders basically starts the convo, "Ever thought about killing yourself?" which was like whoa, what? Fenris is like "no, why?" "to escape slavery" "there are worse things than slavery" and Anders says "there are worse things than death". So yeah, the opposite of what you have. Probably. Just my memory from hearing it twice.

*snaps fingers* that be it! Thank you! Twas definitely vexing me to not recall (and not be in a position to play and see if I could get it to start again). 

But that's still pretty darned tragic :/ I think Anders is in a place worse than death.  I really feel that the supernatural element ameliorates his actions in a way that defies real life. Anders isn't Anders. He's posessed. And yet - in the DA universe, how many posessed people have died to our heroes? 

And this beggars...if Wynne didn't go all psychotic after merging with a fade spirit...wtf Anders? XD (I know, I know...Anders' anger mucked up Justice...he said as much)

[maselphie]

Wynne was naturally a better person than Anders, I believe. Justice wasn't a demon, HE was the one corrupted, from what I've seen. Anders was the darker between the two. I mean, remember how you met him in Awakenings. Bodies around him, and him just smiling, acting all woobie. But the guy is scary as hell. And he somehow makes us forget it with talks of kittens! Now THAT is pure evil!

[Rinji the Bearded]

maselphie wrote...

Wynne was naturally a better person than Anders, I believe. Justice wasn't a demon, HE was the one corrupted, from what I've seen. Anders was the darker between the two. I mean, remember how you met him in Awakenings. Bodies around him, and him just smiling, acting all woobie. But the guy is scary as hell. And he somehow makes us forget it with talks of kittens! Now THAT is pure evil!

A better person to some, maybe, but I remember having a distinct dislike for her when I played my Mage in DA:O.  My impression of the Circle was bad from the start, and then she sits there and tries to tell me that it's perfectly fine to be locked up?  Yeesh.  Couldn't stand it.

Not gonna lie, I think Anders's opinions of the Templars were already pretty rock bottom when our Wardens met him in Awakening.  I remember when he told my Warden that he had been locked up for a year in solitary confinement... and I sat back, wondering, "And how are you not... completely bonkers now?"

... Guess I was right.  But here's to fighting for a future where we can prevent things like this from happening ever again.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 12 mars 2011 - 06:20 .

[Darkannex]

I also have issues with Wynne being labelled as 'a better person' But I see the point you are trying to make. Anders was angry (justifiably) by all the ills heaped on him by the chantry. When he and Justice merged, it was just a really bad pairing. If he had merged with a spirit of virtue or mercy or some other gooey thing...it may not have been as bad. But this was just oil and fire.

[MsKehoe]

RinjiRenee wrote...

maselphie wrote...

Wynne was naturally a better person than Anders, I believe. Justice wasn't a demon, HE was the one corrupted, from what I've seen. Anders was the darker between the two. I mean, remember how you met him in Awakenings. Bodies around him, and him just smiling, acting all woobie. But the guy is scary as hell. And he somehow makes us forget it with talks of kittens! Now THAT is pure evil!

A better person to some, maybe, but I remember having a distinct dislike for her when I played my Mage in DA:O.  My impression of the Circle was bad from the start, and then she sits there and tries to tell me that it's perfectly fine to be locked up?  Yeesh.  Couldn't stand it.

Not gonna lie, I think Anders's opinions of the Templars were already pretty rock bottom when our Wardens met him in Awakening.  I remember when he told my Warden that he had been locked up for a year in solitary confinement... and I sat back, wondering, "And how are you not... completely bonkers now?"

... Guess I was right.  But here's to fighting for a future where we can prevent things like this from happening ever again.

A whole YEAR? Christ, the more damaged he is, the more I want to hold him and tell him everything is going to be alright. D:

[Bekkael]

*emerges from 60+ hour gaming cave*

Wow. I had absolutely no intention of romancing Anders or following his point of view, but he used his sweetness persuasion on my rogue. If I ever manage to get a character to romance anyone but him, I'm going to need a ring with an enchantment-- Immunity to Anders Charm: 100% 

Sheesh, it's like Alistair all over again, but with a twist of insane. I tried a Fenris romance, but was so unimpressed with his anger issues that I backloaded to Anders.

Sebastian is extemely meh. I love his VA, but his constant fanatical/self-righteous dialogue made me want to lock him in a room with Isabela-- and a feather. I wanted him to shut up and go reclaim his kingdom. His quests were way too short for me.

I choose to believe that my Hawke and Anders took Isabela up on her offer for them all to sail away on her ship.