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[DragonRacer]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Sialater wrote...

Sometimes, that's the case.  Not always, though, such as on the Rivalry path or during Dissent.

During dissent he does let himself go, letting in to the rage. I see it as Anders leaving the reigns partly. Haven't done the rivalry path properly . There is the short story though, that is the part where I see that he forced control.

I do wonder how much of a mix they really are, as sometimes they claim to be unable to separate one and another and the next Anders talks about what Justice thinks. Uneven portrayal.

I don't think it's so much an uneven portrayal as it is total ignorance for both Anders and Justice. I honestly think neither knows just how interwined they are or aren't with each other. I don't think anyone knows, really.

I almost get a mental image of a person, and they have a little devil on one shoulder and a little angel on the other. One represents temptation or desire -- like, the little devil whispers in your ear that you should totally paintball that guy's house. Think of how awesome and fun it would be! And the little angel whispers back urging you not to do it. Reminding you it would be wrong and unkind. Those aren't external critters -- they are the little voices in your head that are a part of you... but people sometimes talk about them as if they aren't.

Maybe I totally failed on that analogy, but maybe you can see where I'm going with it? Or not. If nothing else, it was worth it to now bring forth the mental image of Justice/Vengeance sitting on Anders's shoulder egging him on to Jenga the Chantry. LOL

Modifié par DragonRacer, 29 avril 2011 - 03:58 .

[DragonRacer]

Sialater wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Sialater wrote...

Sometimes, that's the case.  Not always, though, such as on the Rivalry path or during Dissent.

During dissent he does let himself go, letting in to the rage. I see it as Anders leaving the reigns partly. Haven't done the rivalry path properly . There is the short story though, that is the part where I see that he forced control.

I do wonder how much of a mix they really are, as sometimes they claim to be unable to separate one and another and the next Anders talks about what Justice thinks. Uneven portrayal.

I'm not entirely sure either of them know... And I'm not convinced that Anders is correct in his diagnosis that Justice has gone demon.  If the spirit had, Anders would never regain control.  And he clearly does.  The problem is, Justice, untempered by anything else, is a highly ruthless force in and of itself.

I agree about not believing Justice/Vengeance to be a demon (yet, anyway). And the bolded part was another great point that I failed to articulate in my not-a-demon post last page.

We know Anders is struggling with his passenger. We see it whether you befriend or rival him.

But I also think that Justice is struggling as well. With himself. That Justice is still there, but Vengeance is his worse half, a direct result of Anders's pent-up aggression towards templars and the whole Circle concept itself.

When the spirit you let inside your body is now fighting a Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde battle, that's definitely going to cause you problems as well!

Modifié par DragonRacer, 29 avril 2011 - 04:00 .

[Sialater]

DragonRacer wrote...

Sialater wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Sialater wrote...

Sometimes, that's the case.  Not always, though, such as on the Rivalry path or during Dissent.

During dissent he does let himself go, letting in to the rage. I see it as Anders leaving the reigns partly. Haven't done the rivalry path properly . There is the short story though, that is the part where I see that he forced control.

I do wonder how much of a mix they really are, as sometimes they claim to be unable to separate one and another and the next Anders talks about what Justice thinks. Uneven portrayal.

I'm not entirely sure either of them know... And I'm not convinced that Anders is correct in his diagnosis that Justice has gone demon.  If the spirit had, Anders would never regain control.  And he clearly does.  The problem is, Justice, untempered by anything else, is a highly ruthless force in and of itself.

I agree about not believing Justice/Vengeance to be a demon (yet, anyway). And the bolded part was another great point that I failed to ariculate in my not-a-demon post last page.

We know Anders is struggling with his passenger. We see it whether your befriend or rival him.

But I also think that Justice is struggling as well. With himself. That Justice is still there, but Vengeance is his worse half, a direct result of Anders's pent-up aggression towards templars and the whole Circle concept itself.

When the spirit you let inside your body is now fighting a Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde battle, that's definitely going to cause you problems as well!

That's the thing.  All we have is Anders word that there's "Vengeance" inside him.  Problem is, Justice can be mistaken for Vengeance.  This is hinted at almost everywhere in DA2.  

There's a reason Justice in our world is depicted as blind.  It's also blind to compassion, mercy, and love. Not just race, creed, color and social standing.

[Sialater]

Hey, Threeparts, got a new song for the playlist (if it's not already on there.)

Billy Joel: I Go To Extremes

[Dreaming-in-Shadow]

I would agree that Justice is not a demon. I once heard the virtue of Justice described as the virtue closest to a sin, simply because it is defined purely by the viewpoint of the people involved.
The lines between Vengeance and Justice are totally blurred, because essentially, outside of the Fade where ideas and dreams are real, they are one and the same.

Just my point of view.
Also Anders has always been a little dense, and Justice had no idea what he was doing.
They both need a good Gibbs-slap and  a little bedtime punishment courtesy of Hawke and his own sword of Justice/her Tempering of Justice's sword a hug

Modifié par Dreaming-in-Shadow, 29 avril 2011 - 04:15 .

[YamiSnuffles]

Sialater wrote...

That's the thing.  All we have is Anders word that there's "Vengeance" inside him.  Problem is, Justice can be mistaken for Vengeance.  This is hinted at almost everywhere in DA2.  

There's a reason Justice in our world is depicted as blind.  It's also blind to compassion, mercy, and love. Not just race, creed, color and social standing.

I agree with your assessment of the concept of justice. It makes me think a bit of Samara in ME2. She had a strict rule of justice and she adhered to it. There was no room for things like mercy in her code. If you were bad, you got killed, simple as that.

Now, that said, I think Justice the spirit that we knew didn't perfectly embody the concept he was supposed to represent. Justice the spirit was open to ideas like love. I assume that is part of what Anders is referring to when he says Vengeance. His friend has changed and no longer open to mercy, love, and compassion.

[Sialater]

YamiSnuffles wrote...

Sialater wrote...

That's the thing.  All we have is Anders word that there's "Vengeance" inside him.  Problem is, Justice can be mistaken for Vengeance.  This is hinted at almost everywhere in DA2.  

There's a reason Justice in our world is depicted as blind.  It's also blind to compassion, mercy, and love. Not just race, creed, color and social standing.

I agree with your assessment of the concept of justice. It makes me think a bit of Samara in ME2. She had a strict rule of justice and she adhered to it. There was no room for things like mercy in her code. If you were bad, you got killed, simple as that.

Now, that said, I think Justice the spirit that we knew didn't perfectly embody the concept he was supposed to represent. Justice the spirit was open to ideas like love. I assume that is part of what Anders is referring to when he says Vengeance. His friend has changed and no longer open to mercy, love, and compassion.

Ironic that his stay in the mortal realm pushed him closer to his ideal.

But... I don't think he is no longer open to the gentler things in life, or Hawke wouldn't be a distraction.

[YamiSnuffles]

Sialater wrote...

YamiSnuffles wrote...

Sialater wrote...

That's the thing.  All we have is Anders word that there's "Vengeance" inside him.  Problem is, Justice can be mistaken for Vengeance.  This is hinted at almost everywhere in DA2.  

There's a reason Justice in our world is depicted as blind.  It's also blind to compassion, mercy, and love. Not just race, creed, color and social standing.

I agree with your assessment of the concept of justice. It makes me think a bit of Samara in ME2. She had a strict rule of justice and she adhered to it. There was no room for things like mercy in her code. If you were bad, you got killed, simple as that.

Now, that said, I think Justice the spirit that we knew didn't perfectly embody the concept he was supposed to represent. Justice the spirit was open to ideas like love. I assume that is part of what Anders is referring to when he says Vengeance. His friend has changed and no longer open to mercy, love, and compassion.

Ironic that his stay in the mortal realm pushed him closer to his ideal.

But... I don't think he is no longer open to the gentler things in life, or Hawke wouldn't be a distraction.

Oh, what I meant is that's what Anders means when he says Vengeance. Because sometimes he also still calls him Justice. So in the mixed up world that is Anders' head, Justice is the spirit he calls a friend and Vengeance is the perversion of that spirit. I don't know if that makes any more sense than what I said before.

I do think/hope the old Justice isn't completely lost and could be softened up a bit again.

Modifié par YamiSnuffles, 29 avril 2011 - 04:32 .

[Sialater]

YamiSnuffles wrote...

Sialater wrote...

YamiSnuffles wrote...

Sialater wrote...

That's the thing.  All we have is Anders word that there's "Vengeance" inside him.  Problem is, Justice can be mistaken for Vengeance.  This is hinted at almost everywhere in DA2.  

There's a reason Justice in our world is depicted as blind.  It's also blind to compassion, mercy, and love. Not just race, creed, color and social standing.

I agree with your assessment of the concept of justice. It makes me think a bit of Samara in ME2. She had a strict rule of justice and she adhered to it. There was no room for things like mercy in her code. If you were bad, you got killed, simple as that.

Now, that said, I think Justice the spirit that we knew didn't perfectly embody the concept he was supposed to represent. Justice the spirit was open to ideas like love. I assume that is part of what Anders is referring to when he says Vengeance. His friend has changed and no longer open to mercy, love, and compassion.

Ironic that his stay in the mortal realm pushed him closer to his ideal.

But... I don't think he is no longer open to the gentler things in life, or Hawke wouldn't be a distraction.

Oh, what I meant is that's what Anders means when he says Vengeance. Because sometimes he also still calls him Justice. So in the mixed up world that is Anders' head, Justice is the spirit he calls a friend and Vengeance is the perversion of that spirit. I don't know if that makes any more sense than what I said before.

I do think/hope the old Justice isn't completely lost and could be softened up a bit again.

Me, too.  Which is why I take that "distraction" thing as rather encouraging.

[Dunizel]

YamiSnuffles wrote...

Oh, what I meant is that's what Anders means when he says Vengeance. Because sometimes he also still calls him Justice. So in the mixed up world that is Anders' head, Justice is the spirit he calls a friend and Vengeance is the perversion of that spirit. I don't know if that makes any more sense than what I said before.

I do think/hope the old Justice isn't completely lost and could be softened up a bit again.

Sometimes I wonder if after the merge the templars didn't find him so soon, or if he ran eslewhere, what would have happened. 
Somehow I think that a more slow process could have helped to adapt both Justice and Anders.
But as it happens, they were suddenly thrown in the worst possible scenario, ad in Kirkwall with a Veil so thin, there wasn't really much time to study their condition or ease the process.  

[Herr Uhl]

I say Vengance bordered heavily on demon. This because I define demon as spirits that want to experience the mortal world. As for him letting go, Connor had lucid moments as well, didn't make it a desire spirit.

[Sialater]

Herr Uhl wrote...

I say Vengance bordered heavily on demon. This because I define demon as spirits that want to experience the mortal world. As for him letting go, Connor had lucid moments as well, didn't make it a desire spirit.

Connor wasn't bodily possessed though.  Anders is.

[Herr Uhl]

Sialater wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

I say Vengance bordered heavily on demon. This because I define demon as spirits that want to experience the mortal world. As for him letting go, Connor had lucid moments as well, didn't make it a desire spirit.

Connor wasn't bodily possessed though.  Anders is.

How wasn't he bodily possessed, and what is the difference? Never quite picked up on that.

[AerdrieDarkmoon]

Remember during the Gauntlet "A Test of Faith" in the quest line for the Urn of Sacred Ashes in Origins. The spirit of Lady Vasilia riddle:

"An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. The debt of blood must be paid in full. Of what do I speak?"
Vengeance is the chosen correct answer. While doing a Amell PT, what she followed it with reminded me much of what we're discussing.

"I am justice. I am vengeance. Blood can only be repaid in blood."

(*goes back to drawing Anders' eyes, but is enjoying reading so much discussion*)

[Sialater]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Sialater wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

I say Vengance bordered heavily on demon. This because I define demon as spirits that want to experience the mortal world. As for him letting go, Connor had lucid moments as well, didn't make it a desire spirit.

Connor wasn't bodily possessed though.  Anders is.

How wasn't he bodily possessed, and what is the difference? Never quite picked up on that.

IIRC, the desire demon controlled him from the Fade.  He wasn't quite a full abomination or he'd be dead after The Warden exorcised him.  Justice/Anders have merged in the mortal realm, which means that if he were to go demon, there's nothing stopping him from taking Anders over completely.  Like the Veil. 

[bleetman]

Herr Uhl wrote...

How wasn't he bodily possessed, and what is the difference? Never quite picked up on that.

Connor's demon control him from within the fade, rather than literally being within his body. Justice is either trapped or unwilling to return to the fade (or both) and merged with Anders' person. Think of it in terms of puppets. Anders is a hand puppet. Connor was controlled by strings.

...I have the best metaphors.

[Sialater]

bleetman wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

How wasn't he bodily possessed, and what is the difference? Never quite picked up on that.

Connor's demon control him from within the fade, rather than literally being within his body. Justice is either trapped or unwilling to return to the fade (or both) and merged with Anders' person. Think of it in terms of puppets. Anders is a hand puppet. Connor was controlled by strings.

...I have the best metaphors.

I do NOT want to think about where Justice's hands have been.

[Herr Uhl]

Where and when was the difference mentioned, and by whom. I don't remember it from the game.

I don't see why the DD wouldn't gain or take full access, it was part of the bargain and she has been there for a long time.

[Sialater]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Where and when was the difference mentioned, and by whom. I don't remember it from the game.

I don't see why the DD wouldn't gain or take full access, it was part of the bargain and she has been there for a long time.

It's kinda extrapolated, for the most part.  Since you CAN go into the Fade and kill her, but you can't do the same to Justice without harming Anders.

[berelinde]

Aargh! You guys go and have this wonderful conversation about whether or not it is possible to separate Anders and Justice and I'm at work. So frustrating!

First of all, Mahariel Marethari is a wonderful person. She is knowledgeable about a lot of things and gives great advice. But she does not know everything. Sure, she says that it is impossible to separate a demon from its host in any way but death, but I'm not convinced that she's right. She did not think it was possible to save Feynriel without making him tranquil, either.

Anders still retains some sense of self. He is able to overrule Justice's objections to his romance with Hawke, even to the point of consummating the relationship. If Anders and Justice really shared a psyche, Anders would be incapable of that kiss. Let's face it, once a guy leaves those awkward boner years behind, lack of interest in a partner is usually pretty obvious. With Hawke's help, he is able to beat Justice back when he wants to kill Ella. When Justice speaks through Anders, Anders has no recollection of it. Despite Anders' insistence that they have truly become one, this does not seem to be true all the time. And I don't believe Anders for a moment when he says that he cannot have a conversation with Justice.

The reason Anders took Justice in was because Justice was trapped outside the Fade. Maybe with Feynriel's help, Justice could return to the Fade voluntarily. If this were done with everyone's full cooperation and consent, it wouldn't leave Anders with the mental fortitude of a gibberling gummy bear. He would probably have some scars from the experience, but he might just be alright.

Modifié par berelinde, 29 avril 2011 - 05:19 .

[Sialater]

Marethari, not Mahariel.

[bleetman]

Sialater wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Where and when was the difference mentioned, and by whom. I don't remember it from the game.

I
don't see why the DD wouldn't gain or take full access, it was part of
the bargain and she has been there for a long time.

It's
kinda extrapolated, for the most part.  Since you CAN go into the Fade
and kill her, but you can't do the same to Justice without harming
Anders.

That, and Jowan mentions it.

"What do you mean? Is the demon not within Connor?"
"Not physically. The demon approached Connor in the fade whilst he dreamt, and controls him from there"

Modifié par bleetman, 29 avril 2011 - 05:18 .

[berelinde]

Sialater wrote...

Marethari, not Mahariel.

Yup, you're right. I'll fix it.

[highcastle]

Dreaming-in-Shadow wrote...

Also Anders has always been a little dense, and Justice had no idea what he was doing.
They both need a good Gibbs-slap and  a little bedtime punishment courtesy of Hawke and his own sword of Justice/her Tempering of Justice's sword a hug

You win the internetz for bringing NCIS into the discussion. So much trouble could have been solved by Gibbs slapping sense into everyone involved. Then telling them not to apologize because it's a sign of weakness.

Er, on topic: I think part of the crux of the issue is how we're going to define spirits and demons. Anders believes in the Maker and he believes the Chantry's explanation of spirits and demons (that the spirits were the Maker's first children; that they fall into categories dependent on sins and virtues; etc). Merrill offers a different interpretation, saying there's no difference between spirits and demons and the divides between them are arbitrary. Granted, she may not be the most stable source, but I think it's worth considering.

I just think if we're going to debate whether Justice became a demon or not, we might want to consider what a demon really is in the lore. I think there's more to them and the Fade than we know right now.

EDIT: Really? Top for this post, and I'm only barely on topic. *sigh* Take sadface!Anders why don't you.

Modifié par highcastle, 29 avril 2011 - 05:21 .

[Sialater]

bleetman wrote...

Sialater wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Where and when was the difference mentioned, and by whom. I don't remember it from the game.

I
don't see why the DD wouldn't gain or take full access, it was part of
the bargain and she has been there for a long time.

It's
kinda extrapolated, for the most part.  Since you CAN go into the Fade
and kill her, but you can't do the same to Justice without harming
Anders.

That, and Jowan mentions it.

"What do you mean? Is the demon not within Connor?"
"Not physically. The demon approached Connor in the fade whilst he dreamt, and controls him from there"

True, but who wants to take Jowan's word for anything?