57020 réponses à ce sujet

[highcastle]

Sialater wrote...
True, but who wants to take Jowan's word for anything? 

Poor Jowan. He's like Rodney Dangerfield; he gets no respect.

[ipgd]

Herr Uhl wrote...

During dissent he does let himself go, letting in to the rage. I see it as Anders leaving the reigns partly. Haven't done the rivalry path properly. There is the short story though, that is the part where I see that he forced control.

I do wonder how much of a mix they really are, as sometimes they claim to be unable to separate one and another and the next Anders talks about what Justice thinks. Uneven portrayal.

I think they are fully merged, but Anders "personifies" Justice, in part because he doesn't know how to explain it, and in part to absolve himself of responsibility for his actions.

berelinde wrote...

Anders still retains some sense of self. He is able to overrule Justice's objections to his romance with Hawke, even to the point of consummating the relationship. If Anders and Justice really shared a psyche, Anders would be incapable of that kiss. Let's face it, once a guy leaves those awkward boner years behind, lack of interest in a partner is usually pretty obvious. With Hawke's help, he is able to beat Justice back when he wants to kill Ella. When Justice speaks through Anders, Anders has no recollection of it. Despite Anders' insistence that they have truly become one, this does not seem to be true all the time. And I don't believe Anders for a moment when he says that he cannot have a conversation with Justice.

Have you never had conflicting opinions about something? Anders is embodied cognitive dissonance. Even as a normal, singular person, having very conflicting reasons to both want and not want to do something that happens all the time. All his willingness to sleep with Hawke suggests is that his obsession with him/her eventually overrules his more reasonable reservations.

Modifié par ipgd, 29 avril 2011 - 05:24 .

[Sialater]

highcastle wrote...

Sialater wrote...
True, but who wants to take Jowan's word for anything? 

Poor Jowan. He's like Rodney Dangerfield; he gets no respect.

With good reason.

*hides from Surely*

[Jean]

highcastle wrote...

Threeparts wrote...

I'm one of those killjoys that would love to see Vengeance gone from Anders - whether purified, banished back to the Fade, or just outright killed, so suggesting that it might not be possible is heartbreaking for me.
I don't like the demon, I didn't have any sort of affection for it when it was still Justice, and I hate what it's doing to Anders. I know Anders is responsible for twisting it as well, but Vengeance is fighting back against its host, forcing him into doing things that he wouldn't otherwise choose to do and controlling his body (not just on rivalry, but during Dissent as well), so I know where my sympathies lay.

I felt this way initially, and I still believe as you do that Vengeance is a bit of a puppeteer at times. But I liked him in Awakening, I don't feel he's fully responsible, not if Anders' past experiences have really shaped him as much as I believe. I truly don't think they could be seperated, though. I think they're too intwined, and I'm not sure tearing them apart would be all that healthy for Anders. It might just break him completely.

That's why it kind of freaks me out a little when people say they find glowy Anders sexy, or want to seduce Justice - in those glowy moments, Vengeance is taking over Anders, controlling him, and using him as its puppet. Anders is helpless, in a body that he can't control, and he can't give consent to anything Vengeance or another party might make him do. That is, in my mind, scary as hell. It's cool that others like it and I'm not judging, but it just hits my DNW button.

Agreed, 100%. It's not Justice's body. When he takes over, he's removing Anders' free will and free agency. That's all kinds of disturbing to me, but maybe I've been unduly influenced by reading the Animorphs when I was a kid. For children's books, they sure painted a pretty vivid and terrifying picture of what it'd be like to be a prisoner in your own body.

Now I'm picturing Justice as a Yeerk. Thank you self, I really needed an image of a glowing blue slug in my mind.

I agree with both of you on all parts.
If there was some way to seperate them, it'd have to have pretty horrific "is it really worth this?" side effects for me. If not, then the entire idea of the merge in the first place would just feel so pointless. 

[SurelyForth]

Sialater wrote...

highcastle wrote...

Sialater wrote...
True, but who wants to take Jowan's word for anything? 

Poor Jowan. He's like Rodney Dangerfield; he gets no respect.

With good reason.

*hides from Surely*

Hey, don't worry about me. I agree completely!

[dpMeggers]

Sialater wrote...
True, but who wants to take Jowan's word for anything? 

To be fair, he is a blood mage, which means at one point or another he probably had to make a deal with a demon, so I think he would have some idea of what's going on. Also at that point he really has no reason to lie to the Warden, especially if the Warden is not Amell/Surana, he's trying to help.

[Sialater]

dpMeggers wrote...

Sialater wrote...
True, but who wants to take Jowan's word for anything? 

To be fair, he is a blood mage, which means at one point or another he probably had to make a deal with a demon, so I think he would have some idea of what's going on. Also at that point he really has no reason to lie to the Warden, especially if the Warden is not Amell/Surana, he's trying to help.

Nope.  He read it in a book.

And I was kinda joking.  I'm one of the few that doesn't despise him.

[ipgd]

dpMeggers wrote...

To be fair, he is a blood mage, which means at one point or another he probably had to make a deal with a demon, so I think he would have some idea of what's going on. Also at that point he really has no reason to lie to the Warden, especially if the Warden is not Amell/Surana, he's trying to help.

Jowan learned his blood magic from books, I'm pretty sure. The only reason demons are the most common source of blood magic is because blood magic is so taboo that it's difficult to find any other way to learn it.

[Sialater]

ipgd wrote...

dpMeggers wrote...

To be fair, he is a blood mage, which means at one point or another he probably had to make a deal with a demon, so I think he would have some idea of what's going on. Also at that point he really has no reason to lie to the Warden, especially if the Warden is not Amell/Surana, he's trying to help.

Jowan learned his blood magic from books, I'm pretty sure. The only reason demons are the most common source of blood magic is because blood magic is so taboo that it's difficult to find any other way to learn it.

The actual book he learned it from is sitting in Irving's office.

[sonoko]

dpMeggers wrote...

Sialater wrote...
True, but who wants to take Jowan's word for anything? 

To be fair, he is a blood mage, which means at one point or another he probably had to make a deal with a demon, so I think he would have some idea of what's going on. Also at that point he really has no reason to lie to the Warden, especially if the Warden is not Amell/Surana, he's trying to help.

Jowan didn't make a deal with a demon. He learned blood magic from books (which Irving later removed from the Circle library - we see empty bookshelves in game).

Modifié par sonoko, 29 avril 2011 - 05:36 .

[Herr Uhl]

bleetman wrote...

That, and Jowan mentions it.

"What do you mean? Is the demon not within Connor?"
"Not physically. The demon approached Connor in the fade whilst he dreamt, and controls him from there"

That *is* where demons approach mages from (in 99/100 cases. Physical manifestations could be in the picture). It isn't like it is something new.

Anyways, I remember reading that it was stated that if you free a mage from possession, they may act a bit strange. Anders embraced Justice fully, and the parts he touched might dissapear with the end of possession. There is also a slight difference to how a spirit comes into you and a demon. I see vengeance as a borderline case.  The melding vs possession.

My guess anyways.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 29 avril 2011 - 05:36 .

[dpMeggers]

ipgd wrote...

dpMeggers wrote...

To be fair, he is a blood mage, which means at one point or another he probably had to make a deal with a demon, so I think he would have some idea of what's going on. Also at that point he really has no reason to lie to the Warden, especially if the Warden is not Amell/Surana, he's trying to help.

Jowan learned his blood magic from books, I'm pretty sure. The only reason demons are the most common source of blood magic is because blood magic is so taboo that it's difficult to find any other way to learn it.

I stand corrected twice over then. My mistake.
Doesn't change the fact that he has a pretty good idea of what's going on. Poor Jowan.

Edit: I stand corrected many times over. It's been a while since my mage playthrough.

Modifié par dpMeggers, 29 avril 2011 - 05:38 .

[Herr Uhl]

Sialater wrote...

ipgd wrote...

Jowan learned his blood magic from books, I'm pretty sure. The only reason demons are the most common source of blood magic is because blood magic is so taboo that it's difficult to find any other way to learn it.

The actual book he learned it from is sitting in Irving's office.

Then why couldn't a mage PC learn the same skill from that book? I think they took it away in order to lessen the interest in it.

It can however be taught by other things than demons, and I don't believe Jowan made any deals while he slept.

[Ashwraith]

Amondra wrote...

Mistress Tasharra wrote...

Mmmm, sexy.

We Friendmancers want glowy sexytimes too! *Pouts*

(Mind you, maybe by that time he can go glowy on will after being so thorougly merged and I'm just making up excuses out my ass so I can have glowy sex, what's your point?)

Justice starts to feel for Hawke and is curious?  Nervous and only going of the memories of Kristoff and Anders, he stumbles around, feeling some so new to him...all he really wanted was for her to see him love him too...

Sorry I was listening to 3 libras and I got this idea about Justice falling for Hawke and wanting her to love him too.  How he wants her to see him... 

Well, if it's any consolation, we do have Tempering Justice. And oh, what a consolation it is. :3
It has become my headcanon. Troofax.
AND ONCE AGAIN I'M LATE TO THE PARTY

Modifié par Ashwraith, 29 avril 2011 - 05:43 .

[Herr Uhl]

highcastle wrote...

I just think if we're going to debate whether Justice became a demon or not, we might want to consider what a demon really is in the lore. I think there's more to them and the Fade than we know right now.

Here you go.

David Gaider wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...
And thank you OP for using the term 'desire spirit.' It's sad that the majority of people on this board are so narrow-minded they feel the need to use the term 'demon.' 
Indeed.

Except that it is a demon. It's not a question of polite phrasing but of terminology-- a demon is any spirit that feeds off of/attempts to manipulate living beings through their baser emotions. The desire demons do so by definition.

[bleetman]

Herr Uhl wrote...

That *is* where demons approach mages from (in 99/100 cases. Physical manifestations could be in the picture). It isn't like it is something new.

Sure, but at some point they tend to want to 'move in', so to speak. Physical possession is done, we're told, out of a desire to see the mortal world. They literally cross the veil into a body - living or dead - to achieve that end.

Connor's demon, for whatever reason, seems content to stay where she is. You don't so much seperate her from Connor as cut the strings.

Modifié par bleetman, 29 avril 2011 - 05:45 .

[Sialater]

Herr Uhl wrote...

highcastle wrote...

I just think if we're going to debate whether Justice became a demon or not, we might want to consider what a demon really is in the lore. I think there's more to them and the Fade than we know right now.

Here you go.

David Gaider wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...
And thank you OP for using the term 'desire spirit.' It's sad that the majority of people on this board are so narrow-minded they feel the need to use the term 'demon.' 
Indeed.

Except that it is a demon. It's not a question of polite phrasing but of terminology-- a demon is any spirit that feeds off of/attempts to manipulate living beings through their baser emotions. The desire demons do so by definition.

Right... but is Justice trying to manipulate Anders?

[YamiSnuffles]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Here you go.

David Gaider wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...
And thank you OP for using the term 'desire spirit.' It's sad that the majority of people on this board are so narrow-minded they feel the need to use the term 'demon.' 
Indeed.

Except that it is a demon. It's not a question of polite phrasing but of terminology-- a demon is any spirit that feeds off of/attempts to manipulate living beings through their baser emotions. The desire demons do so by definition.

But Justice 1)doesn't seem to be feeding off of Anders base emotions otherwise he would encourage Anders to lust after Hawke, and 2) he's also not trying to manipulate Anders through those emotions. He does use Anders as a way to live in this world and can take control of Anders' body, but that's something separate from what you just quoted. Justice isn't necessarily 'good' because he's a spirit instead of a demon, but I still don't think he fits that definition of demon.

[Herr Uhl]

Sialater wrote...

Right... but is Justice trying to manipulate Anders?

I thought that was his story arch, Anders is loosing himself to justice.

Anyways, just wanted to post the definition of a demon in the lore.

Edit: The question is if he tries to do it through baser emotions, and if you consider lust for vengeance to be a baser thing.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 29 avril 2011 - 05:48 .

[Ninche]

There is a DG post in which he clearly states spirits and demons are very different. I'm not sure a spirit could be transformed into a demon of the same kind that lurks in the Fade - like demons of sloth, desire etc. I think Vengeance is something entirely new.

And even tho Anders says he can't have a conversation with Justice, during Dissent when he almost looses control he actually says "It's their place, we cannot" to Justice. Maybe he means they can't have VERBAL conversation or something =/

I think the best insight to his condition is when he says he feel Justice's thoughts as his own. So it is essentially like having two personalitites, and constantly wondering if your thoughts come from you or from that other consciousness inside you. It's actually pretty horrible - like a nightmare.

Edit: bit late with the post, sorry =X

Modifié par Ninche, 29 avril 2011 - 05:48 .

[Sialater]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Sialater wrote...

Right... but is Justice trying to manipulate Anders?

I thought that was his story arch, Anders is loosing himself to justice.

Anyways, just wanted to post the definition of a demon in the lore.

Edit: The question is if he tries to do it through baser emotions, and if you consider lust for vengeance to be a baser thing.

Anders losing himself to Justice doesn't mean manipulation by Justice. 

[Herr Uhl]

Sialater wrote...

Anders losing himself to Justice doesn't mean manipulation by Justice. 

We have different definitions of manipulation then. He changes Anders over time, that makes it manipulating Anders to me.

[dpMeggers]

Herr Uhl wrote...

highcastle wrote...

I just think if we're going to debate whether Justice became a demon or not, we might want to consider what a demon really is in the lore. I think there's more to them and the Fade than we know right now.

Here you go.

David Gaider wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...
And thank you OP for using the term 'desire spirit.' It's sad that the majority of people on this board are so narrow-minded they feel the need to use the term 'demon.' 
Indeed.

Except that it is a demon. It's not a question of polite phrasing but of terminology-- a demon is any spirit that feeds off of/attempts to manipulate living beings through their baser emotions. The desire demons do so by definition.

So the question of "Is Justice/Vengence a demon?" boils down to:
1)Is J/V feeding feeding off/manipulating Anders?
2)Is J/V a base emotion?

1)I would argue that in the friendship path, because Anders and J/V are merged, he could be manipulating Anders without his even realising it, and that seems pretty demonic. In the rival path, J/V just assumes direct control, which is less insidiously demonic, but definitely not a spirit's action. Either way, we have something demonic going on here.

2)I don't think justice is a base emotion, or even an emotion at all really, because it requires a certain amount of objectivity. Justice requires that all sides of a story are examined, before arriving at a just conclusion. (My opinion anyway). Vengence is more base, because it has elements of rage and retribution. It's less "what is right?" and more "I was wronged and I will avenge that wrong even if doing so results in a second wrong." So justice is not a base emotion, but by Anders' own admission the spirit of Justice has been warped by his anger into a "force of Vengence," and vengence is pretty primal. So the warping of Justice to Vengence made him/it more demonic.

In conclusion: J/V may not be a demon, but he's toeing the line pretty badly, if he hasn't already stepped over it (just).

My opinion anyway. Others may (and probably do) differ. Apologies for the wall of text.

[Sialater]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Sialater wrote...

Anders losing himself to Justice doesn't mean manipulation by Justice. 

We have different definitions of manipulation then. He changes Anders over time, that makes it manipulating Anders to me.

By that definition, everyone manipulates everyone.  

Every person you contact changes you in some small way.

[Jean]

So I had a thought:

Do the circles usually drag older apostates(say, 15/16 and up) to the circle or just kill them outright?