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[kromify]

Batteries wrote...

So I had a thought:

Do the circles usually drag older apostates(say, 15/16 and up) to the circle or just kill them outright?

like bethany, 19

[Herr Uhl]

Sialater wrote...

By that definition, everyone manipulates everyone.   

Every person you contact changes you in some small way. 

The nature of the possession/meld makes it kind of forceful.

Batteries wrote...

So I had a thought:

Do the circles usually drag older apostates(say, 15/16 and up) to the circle or just kill them outright?

As far as we know, they are dragged to the circle.

[Jean]

kromify wrote...

Batteries wrote...

So I had a thought:

Do the circles usually drag older apostates(say, 15/16 and up) to the circle or just kill them outright?

like bethany, 19

Point taken.

I almost never have Beth with me. Easy to forget her.

Modifié par Batteries, 29 avril 2011 - 06:32 .

[dpMeggers]

Batteries wrote...

So I had a thought:

Do the circles usually drag older apostates(say, 15/16 and up) to the circle or just kill them outright?

I think it might be up to the discretion of the templar. Bethany was taken to the Circle by Cullen (if she's left at home for the deep roads trek) but Wesley seems ready to attack her.

Edit: That might just be the situation they were in though. And Bethany could be classified as an adult at that point.

Modifié par dpMeggers, 29 avril 2011 - 06:34 .

[Poetics124]

dpMeggers wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

highcastle wrote...

I just think if we're going to debate whether Justice became a demon or not, we might want to consider what a demon really is in the lore. I think there's more to them and the Fade than we know right now.

Here you go.

David Gaider wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...
And thank you OP for using the term 'desire spirit.' It's sad that the majority of people on this board are so narrow-minded they feel the need to use the term 'demon.' 
Indeed.

Except that it is a demon. It's not a question of polite phrasing but of terminology-- a demon is any spirit that feeds off of/attempts to manipulate living beings through their baser emotions. The desire demons do so by definition.

So the question of "Is Justice/Vengence a demon?" boils down to:
1)Is J/V feeding feeding off/manipulating Anders?
2)Is J/V a base emotion?

1)I would argue that in the friendship path, because Anders and J/V are merged, he could be manipulating Anders without his even realising it, and that seems pretty demonic. In the rival path, J/V just assumes direct control, which is less insidiously demonic, but definitely not a spirit's action. Either way, we have something demonic going on here.

2)I don't think justice is a base emotion, or even an emotion at all really, because it requires a certain amount of objectivity. Justice requires that all sides of a story are examined, before arriving at a just conclusion. (My opinion anyway). Vengence is more base, because it has elements of rage and retribution. It's less "what is right?" and more "I was wronged and I will avenge that wrong even if doing so results in a second wrong." So justice is not a base emotion, but by Anders' own admission the spirit of Justice has been warped by his anger into a "force of Vengence," and vengence is pretty primal. So the warping of Justice to Vengence made him/it more demonic.

In conclusion: J/V may not be a demon, but he's toeing the line pretty badly, if he hasn't already stepped over it (just).

My opinion anyway. Others may (and probably do) differ. Apologies for the wall of text.

I think he crosses the line actually but I don't think Justice necessarily recongnizes it.  Which is why he becomes angry when the mage called him a demon.  Justice doesn't percieve himself that way and in a lot of ways he's just as messed up by their joining as Anders is. Justice becomes Vengence when he feeds off of Anders despair, bitterness, and anger. Which is why he always assumes direct control when Anders is overwhelmed. 

Justice is a spirit.  But Vengence is definately a demon.  And Vengence comes out more and more until Anders finally blows up the Chantry, whether because he has fully merged with Vengence or because Vengence straight up takes over at that moment even against Anders wishes on rivalry.  The tragedy of Justice is that he was unaware of his own dissent into the thing he hated most and he dragged Anders with him.

[SidheKate]

Poetics124 wrote...

I think he crosses the line actually but I don't think Justice necessarily recongnizes it.  Which is why he becomes angry when the mage called him a demon.  Justice doesn't percieve himself that way and in a lot of ways he's just as messed up by their joining as Anders is. Justice becomes Vengence when he feeds off of Anders despair, bitterness, and anger. Which is why he always assumes direct control when Anders is overwhelmed. 

Justice is a spirit.  But Vengence is definately a demon.  And Vengence comes out more and more until Anders finally blows up the Chantry, whether because he has fully merged with Vengence or because Vengence straight up takes over at that moment even against Anders wishes on rivalry.  The tragedy of Justice is that he was unaware of his own dissent into the thing he hated most and he dragged Anders with him.

Whether or not Justice realizes he's essentially become a demon, I can't help but believe that he knows he has changed.  Anders and Justice share a mind, so to speak, and what Anders knows Justice knows.  Anders tells Hawke, "he is no longer my friend, Justice."  If Anders knows the spirit has changed into one of Vengance, how can Justice not know it?

Of course, know and accept are two different things.  I don't think Justice accepts what he has become even as he knows that he takes all actions that we attribute to a demon (full possession of the host, influencing thoughts and perceptions, etc.).

[Sialater]

Heh, found another Anders' song.

I think this is appropriately revolutionary.

[Dunizel]

SidheKate wrote...

Whether or not Justice realizes he's essentially become a demon, I can't help but believe that he knows he has changed.  Anders and Justice share a mind, so to speak, and what Anders knows Justice knows.  Anders tells Hawke, "he is no longer my friend, Justice."  If Anders knows the spirit has changed into one of Vengance, how can Justice not know it?

Of course, know and accept are two different things.  I don't think Justice accepts what he has become even as he knows that he takes all actions that we attribute to a demon (full possession of the host, influencing thoughts and perceptions, etc.).

Anders reasons like a man, blaming himself for the change and recognizing that something went horribly bad. 
Justice, even if "corrupted" by human feelings before the merge, still is a spirit. I don't think he reasons like a man. I doubt he can analyze himself, or see what he is doing wrong or what has happened to him. I think his world is really black and white, and I doubt he can see if he does something ethically or morally wrong. He acts on impulse, he does what he feels he has to do.
That's the impression I had anyway...we are trying to talk about him as if he is a man, which is not the case. It is more a force...

[signcherie]

 Dunno if it's been mentioned, but I like Ozzy's Let it Die for revolutionary!Anders.


Everything is breaking, no mistaking, it's all changing
Tear it down, watch it all start burning
All that's done is done, just let it lie

It's a revelation, celebration, graduation
Times collide, watch the world awaken
All the past regrets from days gone by
Let it go, let it die

[Sable Rhapsody]

Dunizel wrote...
Anders reasons like a man, blaming himself for the change and recognizing that something went horribly bad. 
Justice, even if "corrupted" by human feelings before the merge, still is a spirit. I don't think he reasons like a man. I doubt he can analyze himself, or see what he is doing wrong or what has happened to him. I think his world is really black and white, and I doubt he can see if he does something ethically or morally wrong. He acts on impulse, he does what he feels he has to do.
That's the impression I had anyway...we are trying to talk about him as if he is a man, which is not the case. It is more a force...

I think this is important to keep in mind.  Back in Awakening, one of the hallmarks of Justice's personality was how naive, how almost childlike he was in the face of human complexities.  But in Awakening, he was willing to learn, to try and understand how the mortal world works.

I'd say that in DA2 after the merger with Anders, he's still got that singleminded simplicity, but unlike before, he's not willing to consider any stance but his own.  In Awakening, you can side with the Architect and talk down Justice when he protests; he's not happy about your decision, but he recognizes that understanding it is beyond the scope of his experience.  I can't see DA2 Justice being as tolerant.  Justice without Anders' bitterness and anger understands to a degree his own limitations.  Justice once corrupted does not.

[kromify]

janders's situation might improve after the jengafication; with the mages fighting for themselves and, ah, taking justice/vengeance into their own hands anders will not get quite so angry. or if the templars back down, but i don't see that happening.

[Sable Rhapsody]

kromify wrote...

janders's situation might improve after the jengafication; with the mages fighting for themselves and, ah, taking justice/vengeance into their own hands anders will not get quite so angry. or if the templars back down, but i don't see that happening.

Well, and regardless of friendship or rivalry, Anders knows he killed innocent people and feels he deserved to die for what he did.  Remorse can be a pretty big killjoy, and it would probably dampen some of the rage that fuels Justice/Vengeance.

[highcastle]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Dunizel wrote...
Anders reasons like a man, blaming himself for the change and recognizing that something went horribly bad. 
Justice, even if "corrupted" by human feelings before the merge, still is a spirit. I don't think he reasons like a man. I doubt he can analyze himself, or see what he is doing wrong or what has happened to him. I think his world is really black and white, and I doubt he can see if he does something ethically or morally wrong. He acts on impulse, he does what he feels he has to do.
That's the impression I had anyway...we are trying to talk about him as if he is a man, which is not the case. It is more a force...

I think this is important to keep in mind.  Back in Awakening, one of the hallmarks of Justice's personality was how naive, how almost childlike he was in the face of human complexities.  But in Awakening, he was willing to learn, to try and understand how the mortal world works.

I'd say that in DA2 after the merger with Anders, he's still got that singleminded simplicity, but unlike before, he's not willing to consider any stance but his own.  In Awakening, you can side with the Architect and talk down Justice when he protests; he's not happy about your decision, but he recognizes that understanding it is beyond the scope of his experience.  I can't see DA2 Justice being as tolerant.  Justice without Anders' bitterness and anger understands to a degree his own limitations.  Justice once corrupted does not.

You know, I hadn't thought about it in these terms before, but this is a good point. Justice really is somewhat naive and almost innocent to the real world. And his concept of pure good versus pure evil is very childish in its simplicity. I think merging with Anders, experiencing what was done to him (being ripped from his childhood home, thrown into solitary, plus whatever else he went through that he doesn't talk about) made Justice cast the templars in the role of the Black Hats. No matter what they do now, he's never going to see them as less than pure evil.

I also think we talk an awful lot about Justice being corrupted by Anders, but no one mentions that Justice was plenty angry in Awakening. He took a hard line stance against the Baroness, for instance, and seemed pretty intolerant of the faintest injustices. It's possible he was corrupted by his own anger over what was done to Anders. We don't know how the merger worked. Personally, I like to think Justice got a huge dose of Anders' past right away. While Anders largely tried to supress and ignore his pain in Awakening, that's just not Justice's style. It's possible he relived what Anders went through and got angry on his behalf.

[kromify]

highcastle wrote...
I also think we talk an awful lot about Justice being corrupted by Anders, but no one mentions that Justice was plenty angry in Awakening. He took a hard line stance against the Baroness, for instance, and seemed pretty intolerant of the faintest injustices. It's possible he was corrupted by his own anger over what was done to Anders. We don't know how the merger worked. Personally, I like to think Justice got a huge dose of Anders' past right away. While Anders largely tried to supress and ignore his pain in Awakening, that's just not Justice's style. It's possible he relived what Anders went through and got angry on his behalf.

As soon as justice has a personal motivation it magically becomes vengeance. if he was already getting angry then he was already becoming demonic imo

[phantomdragoness]

highcastle wrote...

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Dunizel wrote...
Anders reasons like a man, blaming himself for the change and recognizing that something went horribly bad. 
Justice, even if "corrupted" by human feelings before the merge, still is a spirit. I don't think he reasons like a man. I doubt he can analyze himself, or see what he is doing wrong or what has happened to him. I think his world is really black and white, and I doubt he can see if he does something ethically or morally wrong. He acts on impulse, he does what he feels he has to do.
That's the impression I had anyway...we are trying to talk about him as if he is a man, which is not the case. It is more a force...

I think this is important to keep in mind.  Back in Awakening, one of the hallmarks of Justice's personality was how naive, how almost childlike he was in the face of human complexities.  But in Awakening, he was willing to learn, to try and understand how the mortal world works.

I'd say that in DA2 after the merger with Anders, he's still got that singleminded simplicity, but unlike before, he's not willing to consider any stance but his own.  In Awakening, you can side with the Architect and talk down Justice when he protests; he's not happy about your decision, but he recognizes that understanding it is beyond the scope of his experience.  I can't see DA2 Justice being as tolerant.  Justice without Anders' bitterness and anger understands to a degree his own limitations.  Justice once corrupted does not.

You know, I hadn't thought about it in these terms before, but this is a good point. Justice really is somewhat naive and almost innocent to the real world. And his concept of pure good versus pure evil is very childish in its simplicity. I think merging with Anders, experiencing what was done to him (being ripped from his childhood home, thrown into solitary, plus whatever else he went through that he doesn't talk about) made Justice cast the templars in the role of the Black Hats. No matter what they do now, he's never going to see them as less than pure evil.

I also think we talk an awful lot about Justice being corrupted by Anders, but no one mentions that Justice was plenty angry in Awakening. He took a hard line stance against the Baroness, for instance, and seemed pretty intolerant of the faintest injustices. It's possible he was corrupted by his own anger over what was done to Anders. We don't know how the merger worked. Personally, I like to think Justice got a huge dose of Anders' past right away. While Anders largely tried to supress and ignore his pain in Awakening, that's just not Justice's style. It's possible he relived what Anders went through and got angry on his behalf.

This is the point I made in my fanfiction - very briefly - my Hawke is convinced that Justice is turning into a demon. She remembers her father telling her that demons do not listen to reason - they just twist your logic into their own for their own gain.

Justice IS justice - it is black and white, and a naive IDEA. If you try to work it out in this world, it is black, white, gray, purple, blue, pink etc. While Justice is doing everything for Anders and the mages, he is also acting on his own nature first and foremost. His heart is in the right place, it's his head that is getting screwed up.

EDIT (more thoughts )
Justice thinks his cause is a basic cause and effect system. However...this simply is not the case...because thousands of other cause and effects tap into the system making one giant tree of justice/vengeance/revenge and it will not stop burning until it's nothing but ashes - nobody wins.

Modifié par phantomdragoness, 29 avril 2011 - 09:56 .

[DragonRacer]

Because this thread hasn't possibly gotten depressing enough, let's toss in two versions of a great song for both Anders and our fallen friend Justice...

Hurt - original Nine Inch Nails version

Hurt - cover by Johnny Cash

[phantomdragoness]

DragonRacer wrote...

Because this thread hasn't possibly gotten depressing enough, let's toss in two versions of a great song for both Anders and our fallen friend Justice...

Hurt - original Nine Inch Nails version

Hurt - cover by Johnny Cash

I was wondering when someone would post this song...it's such a heart-breaker.

[Sialater]

DragonRacer wrote...

Because this thread hasn't possibly gotten depressing enough, let's toss in two versions of a great song for both Anders and our fallen friend Justice...

Hurt - original Nine Inch Nails version

Hurt - cover by Johnny Cash

The Johnny Cash version's already on the playlist.  But I like your taste.

[DragonRacer]

phantomdragoness wrote...

This is the point I made in my fanfiction - very briefly - my Hawke is convinced that Justice is turning into a demon. She remembers her father telling her that demons do not listen to reason - they just twist your logic into their own for their own gain.

Justice IS justice - it is black and white, and a naive IDEA. If you try to work it out in this world, it is black, white, gray, purple, blue, pink etc. While Justice is doing everything for Anders and the mages, he is also acting on his own nature first and foremost. His heart is in the right place, it's his head that is getting screwed up.

EDIT (more thoughts )
Justice thinks his cause is a basic cause and effect system. However...this simply is not the case...because thousands of other cause and effects tap into the system making one giant tree of justice/vengeance/revenge and it will not stop burning until it's nothing but ashes - nobody wins.

Caused again by Justice's almost child-like, naive way of trying to process and understand the mortal world... he still cannot comprehend all the intricacies and variables involved.

Hence, why I'm still advocating a group therapy session for the boys.  Justice may yet still be salvagable. At least, in my headcanon. If you think of the spirit/demon thing as mirroring the friendship/rivalry meter, I place Justice over in the red side about 25-50%... heading in the flagrantly wrong direction, but he ain't fully locked out at 100% yet. Until he's 100% Vengeance, my Hawke isn't giving up on Anders OR Justice. Especially considering whatever happens to one, happens to the other. If Justice completely goes bad, he drags Anders down with him... so, regardless whether or not Hawke likes Justice/Vengeance, she has a stake in what's happening inside his spiritual head as well.

[Ninche]

DragonRacer wrote...

Because this thread hasn't possibly gotten depressing enough, let's toss in two versions of a great song for both Anders and our fallen friend Justice...

Hurt - original Nine Inch Nails version

Hurt - cover by Johnny Cash

That's lovely, thanks for sharing! <3 depressing Anders songs

[YamiSnuffles]

So I finally got around to updating my Anders animation. Since we've been talking about Justice all day, it ended up with more Justice in it. I honestly have no idea where this is going anymore, haha.

Anders animation... now with kitties and tears!

[phantomdragoness]

DragonRacer wrote...

phantomdragoness wrote...

This is the point I made in my fanfiction - very briefly - my Hawke is convinced that Justice is turning into a demon. She remembers her father telling her that demons do not listen to reason - they just twist your logic into their own for their own gain.

Justice IS justice - it is black and white, and a naive IDEA. If you try to work it out in this world, it is black, white, gray, purple, blue, pink etc. While Justice is doing everything for Anders and the mages, he is also acting on his own nature first and foremost. His heart is in the right place, it's his head that is getting screwed up.

EDIT (more thoughts )
Justice thinks his cause is a basic cause and effect system. However...this simply is not the case...because thousands of other cause and effects tap into the system making one giant tree of justice/vengeance/revenge and it will not stop burning until it's nothing but ashes - nobody wins.

Caused again by Justice's almost child-like, naive way of trying to process and understand the mortal world... he still cannot comprehend all the intricacies and variables involved.

Hence, why I'm still advocating a group therapy session for the boys.  Justice may yet still be salvagable. At least, in my headcanon. If you think of the spirit/demon thing as mirroring the friendship/rivalry meter, I place Justice over in the red side about 25-50%... heading in the flagrantly wrong direction, but he ain't fully locked out at 100% yet. Until he's 100% Vengeance, my Hawke isn't giving up on Anders OR Justice. Especially considering whatever happens to one, happens to the other. If Justice completely goes bad, he drags Anders down with him... so, regardless whether or not Hawke likes Justice/Vengeance, she has a stake in what's happening inside his spiritual head as well.

Oh God...therapy. Can't you just imagine?! LOL.

No, I do believe Justice can still be saved. If you Friendmance Anders, I think there is an even better chance because the spirit appears calmer with Hawke's support.

[LT123]

YamiSnuffles wrote...

So I finally got around to updating my Anders animation. Since we've been talking about Justice all day, it ended up with more Justice in it. I honestly have no idea where this is going anymore, haha.

Anders animation... now with kitties and tears!

Daww. So cute. "Hawke!" "Kitty!" <3

[highcastle]

I don't think Justice is necessarily becoming a demon. I do think he's wrestling with his nature, though. It's hard to be a creature of absolutes in a world which carries so many shades of gray. The question then becomes, Is it possible for Justice to learn how to compromise? Can he let go of his anger? Can Anders? And that has nothing to do with being a spirit or demon, in my opinion. Plenty of flesh-and-blood human beings wrestle with anger issues all the time.

So, I guess count me in on the group therapy. But we're going to need one hell of a psychologist to handle glowy blue boy here.

EDIT: Since we're talking about Justice anyway...

Modifié par highcastle, 29 avril 2011 - 10:30 .

[phantomdragoness]

I just saw this picture in my watch list...my jaw dropped into the Deep Roads.


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