57020 réponses à ce sujet

[dpMeggers]

Sialater wrote...

ElleMullineux wrote...

Sialater wrote...

kromify wrote...

i'm not sure that would have had the same effect. blowing up the chantry building was a symbol

Yes, but it's a symbol that may backfire.

But anything less than that would mean the Chantry's structure was still intact. The mages could only be held in circles so long as they let themselves be and I think it needed an act like Chantry goes boom for them to realise there was a choice and a chance. They all had to rise at the same time otherwise each circle and it's Templars would manage their own.
Even if the Divine was assassinated I don't think it would change anything as the structure was still there. You needed for the mages to deny the structure for it to all fall down.

Anders = Rebel champion.

But that's not what happens if you side with the Templars.  The Circles rebel out of self defence, IIRC.

But they were forced to do so because of Anders' actions.

Edit: Oh crap...top. Well I'll be the first to admit that I have no idea how to embed an image....so it'll be up to the next poster?

Modifié par dpMeggers, 01 mai 2011 - 05:21 .

[ipgd]

Sialater wrote...

Meredith called it when the Chantry went boom. She had no prior approval from either the Divine or Elthina.

She'd sent for it, but was still waiting for the call to come down. She DID NOT have authority to call it just then.

The Right is definitely legal. With the Grand Cleric dead, and with no apparent successor, the authority to call the Right does fall to Meredith. Gaider spent the better part of a horrible IanPolaris thread arguing about this.

http://social.biowar...ex/6981321&lf=8

Modifié par ipgd, 01 mai 2011 - 05:22 .

[Xilizhra]

Something you may like, conceived by me and made by MechaDragonKiryu:
http://pics.livejour...yu/pic/001ts43z

[dpMeggers]

ipgd wrote...

Sialater wrote...

Meredith called it when the Chantry went boom. She had no prior approval from either the Divine or Elthina.

She'd sent for it, but was still waiting for the call to come down. She DID NOT have authority to call it just then.

The Right is definitely legal. With the Grand Cleric dead, and with no apparent successor, the authority to call the Right does fall to Meredith. Gaider spent the better part of a horrible IanPolaris thread arguing about this.

http://social.biowar...ex/6981321&lf=8

So it was legal, but I think most of us agree and Cullen seemed to recognize that it was a bit of an overreaction. She could have just run the murderer through and be done with it instead of ignoring him and running off to kill all mages.

[ipgd]

dpMeggers wrote...

So it was legal, but I think most of us agree and Cullen seemed to recognize that it was a bit of an overreaction. She could have just run the murderer through and be done with it instead of ignoring him and running off to kill all mages.

Yes, but that's not really the issue. Legally, she did nothing wrong.

[TripLight]

Xilizhra wrote...

Something you may like, conceived by me and made by MechaDragonKiryu:
http://pics.livejour...yu/pic/001ts43z

I wish I had more room in my signature.

[Ninche]

Sialater wrote...

kromify wrote...

i'm not sure that would have had the same effect. blowing up the chantry building was a symbol

Yes, but it's a symbol that may backfire.

I agree with you, I'm not sure what this war can accomplish - people have been brought up with the chantry's ways and we all know that agressive approaches don't ever change anyone's opinion - if anything they harden it. Lots of people are going to declare mages insane and dangerous for sure now - they will probably loose most of their sympathisers who weren't that many to begin with. And what if mages win - what then? They will be forced to establish a new form of government or whatever and that will basically lead to another tevinter. Also, I really don't see how they CAN win, not unless most templars join their cause because otheriwse they will just be drowned in the Divine's armies and most royal armies of thedas who will surely match to protect their religion. 

The only way I can see this working out is if both sides are sort of equal and eventually realise they need to come up with a new way to do things TOGETHER. But meanwhile thousands will die, and lots of them won't even have anything to do with mages or templars. 

And if the mages loose the war they will be so hated it will be infinitely worse for future mages.

On the other hand people keep giving me the "they should have tried to change people's opinions peacefully - through education and awareness etc." the thing is, the chantry usually destroys any attempts of mages trying to go against its rules and philosophy - and that philosophy is that mages are cursed and dangerous and it's shameful to be related to them. Mages and their different political groups have been trying to change opinions for centuries, but The Chantry as an organisation completely overpowers them with their massive  authority over people. So the question here is, how long do you wait before you try a more agressive approach? If peaceful and diplomatic tactics haven't worked for a 1000 years how much longer do you keep trying them before you try something different?

The same argument goes for the Kirkwall situation - Anders gave elthina like 7 years to DO SOMETHING about Meredith. If he'd waited any longer the mages would have got annuled, wiped by the divine or just slowly made tranquil and eventually killed. Starting a massive war could possibly lead to the circle getting slaughtered ANYWAY but at least the truth of Meredith's tiranny would be known - the whole world would look to Kirkwall. 

[kromify]

ipgd wrote...

dpMeggers wrote...

So it was legal, but I think most of us agree and Cullen seemed to recognize that it was a bit of an overreaction. She could have just run the murderer through and be done with it instead of ignoring him and running off to kill all mages.

Yes, but that's not really the issue. Legally, she did nothing wrong.

i never quite bought that meredith left anders for hawke to deal with. it's more player choice, but it does seem a bit crazy of her to annul the circle but ignore the culprit

[LadyVaJedi]

Because something is legal doesn't make it morally right.

[Sialater]

ipgd wrote...

dpMeggers wrote...

So it was legal, but I think most of us agree and Cullen seemed to recognize that it was a bit of an overreaction. She could have just run the murderer through and be done with it instead of ignoring him and running off to kill all mages.

Yes, but that's not really the issue. Legally, she did nothing wrong.

Ah.

That really makes no sense since she sent to the Divine and by-passed Elthina entirely.

[dpMeggers]

kromify wrote...

ipgd wrote...

dpMeggers wrote...

So it was legal, but I think most of us agree and Cullen seemed to recognize that it was a bit of an overreaction. She could have just run the murderer through and be done with it instead of ignoring him and running off to kill all mages.

Yes, but that's not really the issue. Legally, she did nothing wrong.

i never quite bought that meredith left anders for hawke to deal with. it's more player choice, but it does seem a bit crazy of her to annul the circle but ignore the culprit

Because she was a paragon of sanity at that point. Maybe she figured he was just another mage and would be killed with all the rest?

[ipgd]

LadyVaJedi wrote...

Because something is legal doesn't make it morally right.

ipgd wrote...

Yes, but that's not really the issue.

Ninche wrote...

I agree with you, I'm not sure what this war can accomplish - people have been brought up with the chantry's ways and we all know that agressive approaches don't ever change anyone's opinion - if anything they harden it. Lots of people are going to declare mages insane and dangerous for sure now - they will probably loose most of their sympathisers who weren't that many to begin with.

That's pretty much the point. A huge reason why the mages haven't been freed already is that some of them let the templars oppress them. They don't act out for fear of death or Tranquility. With the chantry destroyed and hung around their necks, everyone is against them and there is no chance for peaceful surrender. The mages now have to fight, even the cowards and the loyalists who would otherwise take the templars' side if there were any better chance of getting out alive.

[kromify]

Ninche wrote...
I agree with you, I'm not sure what this war can accomplish - people have been brought up with the chantry's ways and we all know that agressive approaches don't ever change anyone's opinion - if anything they harden it. Lots of people are going to declare mages insane and dangerous for sure now - they will probably loose most of their sympathisers who weren't that many to begin with. And what if mages win - what then? They will be forced to establish a new form of government or whatever and that will basically lead to another tevinter. Also, I really don't see how they CAN win, not unless most templars join their cause because otheriwse they will just be drowned in the Divine's armies and most royal armies of thedas who will surely match to protect their religion. 

The only way I can see this working out is if both sides are sort of equal and eventually realise they need to come up with a new way to do things TOGETHER. But meanwhile thousands will die, and lots of them won't even have anything to do with mages or templars. 

And if the mages loose the war they will be so hated it will be infinitely worse for future mages.

On the other hand people keep giving me the "they should have tried to change people's opinions peacefully - through education and awareness etc." the thing is, the chantry usually destroys any attempts of mages trying to go against its rules and philosophy - and that philosophy is that mages are cursed and dangerous and it's shameful to be related to them. Mages and their different political groups have been trying to change opinions for centuries, but The Chantry as an organisation completely overpowers them with their massive  authority over people. So the question here is, how long do you wait before you try a more agressive approach? If peaceful and diplomatic tactics haven't worked for a 1000 years how much longer do you keep trying them before you try something different?

The same argument goes for the Kirkwall situation - Anders gave elthina like 7 years to DO SOMETHING about Meredith. If he'd waited any longer the mages would have got annuled, wiped by the divine or just slowly made tranquil and eventually killed. Starting a massive war could possibly lead to the circle getting slaughtered ANYWAY but at least the truth of Meredith's tiranny would be known - the whole world would look to Kirkwall. 

"You've doomed us all."
"We were already doomed."

If both sides were equal then the problem would not exist. I reckon the mages are powerful enough to win the war.
If they do win the best thing they could do is to restore the circles to an extent; just with less oppression, mages themselves having a say in what happens to them, and templars who are more like friends and councillors rather than jailors. and weekend leave to visit families.  

[dpMeggers]

ipgd wrote...

Ninche wrote...

I agree with you, I'm not sure what this war can accomplish - people have been brought up with the chantry's ways and we all know that agressive approaches don't ever change anyone's opinion - if anything they harden it. Lots of people are going to declare mages insane and dangerous for sure now - they will probably loose most of their sympathisers who weren't that many to begin with.

That's pretty much the point. A huge reason why the mages haven't been freed already is that some of them let the templars oppress them. They don't act out for fear of death or Tranquility. With the chantry destroyed and hung around their necks, everyone is against them and there is no chance for peaceful surrender. The mages now have to fight, even the cowards and the loyalists who would otherwise take the templars' side if there were any better chance of getting out alive.

I think what we have to remember is that Anders' intention wasn't to WIN the war. He just wanted to start it by forcing all mages living in the Circle to join his fight. Goal accomplished. When you plan to be dead 20 minutes after the war begins, the long-term reprocussions of your actions aren't really relevant to you. Horrible lack of foresight? Yes. But the goal was accomplished.

[TripLight]

dpMeggers wrote...

kromify wrote...

ipgd wrote...

dpMeggers wrote...

So it was legal, but I think most of us agree and Cullen seemed to recognize that it was a bit of an overreaction. She could have just run the murderer through and be done with it instead of ignoring him and running off to kill all mages.

Yes, but that's not really the issue. Legally, she did nothing wrong.

i never quite bought that meredith left anders for hawke to deal with. it's more player choice, but it does seem a bit crazy of her to annul the circle but ignore the culprit

Because she was a paragon of sanity at that point. Maybe she figured he was just another mage and would be killed with all the rest?

I am just going to say it was game mechanics, and Bioware wanted to give the player a hard choice, to see justice done, or enact justice.

Besides remember, a Ferelden Refugee is apparently smarter and more influential then, I am guessing, classical educated and trained leaders of the mages and templars, both with at least Two decades of experience under their belts..

But then again, they have been residing on a hellmouth for an extended periond of time as well...

[Herr Uhl]

Sialater wrote...

ipgd wrote...

Yes, but that's not really the issue. Legally, she did nothing wrong.

Ah.

That really makes no sense since she sent to the Divine and by-passed Elthina entirely.

With Elthina dead that wasn't an issue. With her alive Elthina was hindering the Right.

[Ninche]

ipgd wrote...

That's pretty much the point. A huge reason why the mages haven't been freed already is that some of them let the templars oppress them. They don't act out for fear of death or Tranquility. With the chantry destroyed and hung around their necks, everyone is against them and there is no chance for peaceful surrender. The mages now have to fight, even the cowards and the loyalists who would otherwise take the templars' side if there were any better chance of getting out alive.

What do you mean by freed? Do you mean the freedom to be just like anyone else - no restrictions whatsoever? Because that would be unwise - mages ARE dangerous AND they are super powerful. They could enslave and control anyone they like if they were just left to do whatever they wanted. And I suppose if you are a mage that's a good thing - but if you aren't it's a terrifying concept. Suer some mages are noble and good people but many (given freedom) will seek to control others and become as powerful as possible. 

I understand why some would think the war was necessary - and yes in the face of the common danger of being killed on sight all mages will unite to fight the Chantry. But what then? Like I said I'm not sure they CAN win this war, but if they do what happens then? 

[Jean]

I'm sure a third option will magically manifest itself during this war. Coupled with the other worldwide issues other than the templars and mages.

[ipgd]

Sialater wrote...

ipgd wrote...

dpMeggers wrote...

So it was legal, but I think most of us agree and Cullen seemed to recognize that it was a bit of an overreaction. She could have just run the murderer through and be done with it instead of ignoring him and running off to kill all mages.

Yes, but that's not really the issue. Legally, she did nothing wrong.

Ah.

That really makes no sense since she sent to the Divine and by-passed Elthina entirely.

The Divine and the Grand Cleric both have the authority to call for the Right. After Elthina denied it, she was going over her head to petition the Divine. Dad said no so she's asking Mom. Which would still be legal, since the Divine has authority.

After Elthina died with no successor, Meredith gained the authority to call for the Right herself. She no longer required permission for the Divine just as Elthina would not have had to petition the Divine to call for the Right herself. Think of her as the "acting Grand Cleric" if you want.

Legality really need have nothing to do whatsoever with morality and trying to conflate the two is just going to confuse you.

[Herr Uhl]

Batteries wrote...

I'm sure a third option will magically manifest itself during this war. Coupled with the other worldwide issues other than the templars and mages.

Mages, Templars and the Riviani Legendary Beards in a free for all. It will be [Cailan] Glorious [/Cailan]

[Ninche]

kromify wrote...


If both sides were equal then the problem would not exist. I reckon the mages are powerful enough to win the war.
If they do win the best thing they could do is to restore the circles to an extent; just with less oppression, mages themselves having a say in what happens to them, and templars who are more like friends and councillors rather than jailors. and weekend leave to visit families.  

This is what I think should happen - but if mages WIN the war I don't think they would peacefully go back to the circles - even after transforming the whole system. That would only happen if all of them were as sweet and (ultimately) good natured like Anders and Wynne. 

[Sialater]

ipgd wrote...

Sialater wrote...

ipgd wrote...

dpMeggers wrote...

So it was legal, but I think most of us agree and Cullen seemed to recognize that it was a bit of an overreaction. She could have just run the murderer through and be done with it instead of ignoring him and running off to kill all mages.

Yes, but that's not really the issue. Legally, she did nothing wrong.

Ah.

That really makes no sense since she sent to the Divine and by-passed Elthina entirely.

The Divine and the Grand Cleric both have the authority to call for the Right. After Elthina denied it, she was going over her head to petition the Divine. Dad said no so she's asking Mom. Which would still be legal, since the Divine has authority.

After Elthina died with no successor, Meredith gained the authority to call for the Right herself. She no longer required permission for the Divine just as Elthina would not have had to petition the Divine to call for the Right herself. Think of her as the "acting Grand Cleric" if you want.

Legality really need have nothing to do whatsoever with morality and trying to conflate the two is just going to confuse you.

I wasn't conflating them.  The passage in the wiki wasn't clear on the chain of command.

[ipgd]

Ninche wrote...

ipgd wrote...

That's pretty much the point. A huge reason why the mages haven't been freed already is that some of them let the templars oppress them. They don't act out for fear of death or Tranquility. With the chantry destroyed and hung around their necks, everyone is against them and there is no chance for peaceful surrender. The mages now have to fight, even the cowards and the loyalists who would otherwise take the templars' side if there were any better chance of getting out alive.

What do you mean by freed? Do you mean the freedom to be just like anyone else - no restrictions whatsoever? Because that would be unwise - mages ARE dangerous AND they are super powerful. They could enslave and control anyone they like if they were just left to do whatever they wanted. And I suppose if you are a mage that's a good thing - but if you aren't it's a terrifying concept. Suer some mages are noble and good people but many (given freedom) will seek to control others and become as powerful as possible. 

I understand why some would think the war was necessary - and yes in the face of the common danger of being killed on sight all mages will unite to fight the Chantry. But what then? Like I said I'm not sure they CAN win this war, but if they do what happens then? 

I mean "not under the authority of the Chantry", because, if they were all working together, the mages could obviously beat down pretty much anyone who wanted to subjugate them. Whether that leads to egalitarian paradise or Tevinter 2.0 doesn't really matter. They have a huge power advantage over mundane people. But they're fragmented and the mages who want to pull away from the Chantry are considered fringe groups, so sedition is easily put down by force of number.

Nobody knows what the actual result of this conflict will be and it's pretty pointless to speculate with what little information we have. Anders's only goal was to start it, which he was very successful at.

[Ninche]

dpMeggers wrote...

I think what we have to remember is that Anders' intention wasn't to WIN the war. He just wanted to start it by forcing all mages living in the Circle to join his fight. Goal accomplished. When you plan to be dead 20 minutes after the war begins, the long-term reprocussions of your actions aren't really relevant to you. Horrible lack of foresight? Yes. But the goal was accomplished.

ipgd wrote...

Nobody knows what the actual result of this conflict will be and it's pretty pointless to speculate with what little information we have. Anders's only goal was to start it, which he was very successful at.

I agree with both of you - he definitely accomplished what he wanted - but I'm not sure it was the right thing to do, However, I am tempted by the idea that it was the only thing he could have done to change things at this point. 

[TripLight]

I am still of the opinion that the whole of Kirkwall should have been nuked from orbit...my Hawke hated that ****hole. But  No! Mom had to have her childhood home and relive days long past....the only reason she stayed that long was for that pretty mage in Darktown with a penchant for kittens, self-deprecation, and ultimately self-sacrifice, no matter how misguided.

Modifié par TripLight, 01 mai 2011 - 06:20 .