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[Dreaming-in-Shadow]

YamiSnuffles wrote...

Dreaming-in-Shadow wrote...

Ninche wrote...


Oh also, here's the vid of Anders breaking up with Hawke after the Fade if you make a deal with the demon, I promised I'd put it up a while back: 

www.youtube.com/watch

"You made a deal with a demon, how did you think a spirit of Justice would respond!?" - hate to tell you Hawke, but he makes a good point. You're an idiot.

But Justice is such a cheery guy. When has he ever freaked out and tried to kill someone because they did something he saw as unjust? Seriously, though, that response does make Hawke sound a little dim. There's really very little reason to believe Justice will do anything other than attack her if she deals with the demon. Especially considering how clearly irate Justice gets when you start talking to the demon.

Justice is more complex in a whiring blur of dark grey. It's neither sin nor virtue, and what with Anders and Justice being an abomination and messing each other up, he's not a fair comparison.

A demon is a pure, base emotion. A dark, bad emotion.

Justice has a black and white mentality. Demon = bad. Mage exchanging innocent teenager for power = bad.
Anders shares the same view.

[LT123]

Just started up a female mage in Origins (for the joy of watching Cullen sprint away and for picking the herp derp "That's a big door" option) and met the spirit of Valor during the Harrowing. He gets pretty ticked if you pick the Willpower option and imply he's a demon.I wonder Valor would be corrupted into if it became a demon. Recklessness, maybe?

I still can't believe Simon Chadwick does Mouse's voice. He doesn't sound like Nate at all.  Edit: Because he's not Simon Chadwick. Where did I get that idea?

Some of Mouse's lines reminded me of Anders-he talks about mages who are free from the Circle and rah rah freedom from the templars.

Modifié par LT123, 02 mai 2011 - 08:52 .

[Dreaming-in-Shadow]

LT123 wrote...

Just started up a female mage in Origins (for the joy of watching Cullen sprint away and for picking the herp derp "That's a big door" option) and met the spirit of Valor during the Harrowing. He gets pretty ticked if you pick the Willpower option and imply he's a demon.I wonder Valor would be corrupted into if it became a demon. Recklessness, maybe?

I still can't believe Simon Chadwick does Mouse's voice. He doesn't sound like Nate at all.  Edit: Because he's not Simon Chadwick. Where did I get that idea?

Some of Mouse's lines reminded me of Anders-he talks about mages who are free from the Circle and rah rah freedom from the templars.

I'm thinking pride.
I don't know, he just made me think: Pride.

Though the opposite of Valor is probably a templar Cowardice. XD
Demons and Spirits seem to get very catty with one another: Like the reactions:

Mouse: It never seemed to live up to it's name to me. <_<
Valor: I'm no demon! *rage*
Justice: *MARDAR MODE ACTIVATED*

Modifié par Dreaming-in-Shadow, 02 mai 2011 - 08:56 .

[Amondra]

I think Anders would have been better off with a spirit of Valor in him...I don't think his rage with Valor would have been nearly as damaging. It would have just been harder for him to back down from a fight he believed in...also can you imagine that white knighting?

Justice Y U SO MEAN??!

[LT123]

Dreaming-in-Shadow wrote...

LT123 wrote...

Just started up a female mage in Origins (for the joy of watching Cullen sprint away and for picking the herp derp "That's a big door" option) and met the spirit of Valor during the Harrowing. He gets pretty ticked if you pick the Willpower option and imply he's a demon.I wonder Valor would be corrupted into if it became a demon. Recklessness, maybe?

I still can't believe Simon Chadwick does Mouse's voice. He doesn't sound like Nate at all.  Edit: Because he's not Simon Chadwick. Where did I get that idea?

Some of Mouse's lines reminded me of Anders-he talks about mages who are free from the Circle and rah rah freedom from the templars.

I'm thinking pride.
I don't know, he just made me think: Pride.

Edit: Also, I totally thought the Fade spirit in Awakening would be Valor again. Ha.

Though the opposite of Valor is probably a templar Cowardice. XD

The PC's response to Mouse's FREEDOM rant is kind of funny: "You're getting a little crazy there, Mouse." Ha ha, writers.

I was thinking Valor would get twisted basically into Leroy Jenkins-attacking without thinking. Basically a crazy fighter. Since Justice isn't really the opposite of Vengeance, at least in my head. Eh.

Modifié par LT123, 02 mai 2011 - 09:00 .

[LastFadingSmile]

LT123 wrote...

Just started up a female mage in Origins (for the joy of watching Cullen sprint away and for picking the herp derp "That's a big door" option) and met the spirit of Valor during the Harrowing. He gets pretty ticked if you pick the Willpower option and imply he's a demon.I wonder Valor would be corrupted into if it became a demon. Recklessness, maybe?

Maybe Bravado, or something like that. Valor always struck me as verging on arrogant anyway, I imagine a corrupted form of him as being arrogant to the point of dangerous.

Edit: Just saw your second post. Yeah, Leroy Jenkins is basically what I was imagining. But without the screaming. Or the chicken.

Modifié par Kolotosa, 02 mai 2011 - 09:01 .

[Dreaming-in-Shadow]

Amondra wrote...

I think Anders would have been better off with a spirit of Valor in him...I don't think his rage with Valor would have been nearly as damaging. It would have just been harder for him to back down from a fight he believed in...also can you imagine that white knighting?

Justice Y U SO MEAN??!

Valor is certainly more clear cut than Justice.
I mean Anders can be incredibly short sighted and frustratingly stubborn when he wants to be... <_<

But then where would our plot be? And how could Bioware live with themselves if they didn't cause us perpetual suffering!?

[Sable Rhapsody]

Amondra wrote...

I think Anders would have been better off with a spirit of Valor in him...I don't think his rage with Valor would have been nearly as damaging. It would have just been harder for him to back down from a fight he believed in...also can you imagine that white knighting?

Justice Y U SO MEAN??!

Except then he would've been suicidally heroic instead of manic-depressive <_<  That stupid, adorable apostate can't win.

There are spirits that I think would be more resistant to corruption, or at least not as dangerous as Justice if corrupted.  What about something like Joy, or Compassion, or Faith?

[Silfren]

ElleMullineux wrote...

And that vid is COLD. I can understand where he's coming from - it might have tranquilled him if it hadn't been elven magic (which is the loop hole the writers will use I presume). I read somewhere that you can convince him it was a trick and he believes you? Any truth?

I actually think there's a solid reason for Anders not being Tranquiled, that has nothing to do with the magic used being elven in nature.

General consensus seems to be that most abominations don't involve spirits/demons being physically connected with their hosts, but somehow linked to them through the Fade.  (Connor and Wynne being the two most immediate examples).  Anders, on the other hand, is physically melded with Justice.  And we saw in the beginning that when Justice took full control of Anders, it caused Karl to be temporarily de-Tranquiled.  So it could easily be explained that Justice being fully merged with Anders makes him immune to becoming Tranquil. 

I'd like to see this explored more fully in the future, personally.  One thing I very much want to know is whether a non-mage can be made Tranquil--non-mages may not be able to enter the Fade consciously (at least without the help of a somniari's special talent), but the lore does establish that they enter it when they dream.  So obviously they have some kind of connection to it. In general the lore seems to be that everyone, mage and non-mage alike, derives their emotional capacity from the Fade.  It would be an interesting tie-in with the suggestion that at one time, per Sandal, everyone was capable of magic--that right there would explain why everyone has access to the Fade in some form, even though not everyone has magical ability.

[LT123]

Dreaming-in-Shadow wrote...

Amondra wrote...

I think Anders would have been better off with a spirit of Valor in him...I don't think his rage with Valor would have been nearly as damaging. It would have just been harder for him to back down from a fight he believed in...also can you imagine that white knighting?

Justice Y U SO MEAN??!

Valor is certainly more clear cut than Justice.
I mean Anders can be incredibly short sighted and frustratingly stubborn when he wants to be... <_<

But then where would our plot be? And how could Bioware live with themselves if they didn't cause us perpetual suffering!?

They would be dead, since they feed on our tears.

[YamiSnuffles]

Hmm. If we accept the definition of valor as, "boldness or determination in facing great danger, especially in battle" then I would say the perversion of that would be recklessness. So, Anders with a spirit of Valor could easily have been just as dangerous as he was with Justice. He might have gone to more extreme measures.

[Dreaming-in-Shadow]

LT123 wrote...

Dreaming-in-Shadow wrote...

LT123 wrote...

Just started up a female mage in Origins (for the joy of watching Cullen sprint away and for picking the herp derp "That's a big door" option) and met the spirit of Valor during the Harrowing. He gets pretty ticked if you pick the Willpower option and imply he's a demon.I wonder Valor would be corrupted into if it became a demon. Recklessness, maybe?

I still can't believe Simon Chadwick does Mouse's voice. He doesn't sound like Nate at all.  Edit: Because he's not Simon Chadwick. Where did I get that idea?

Some of Mouse's lines reminded me of Anders-he talks about mages who are free from the Circle and rah rah freedom from the templars.

I'm thinking pride.
I don't know, he just made me think: Pride.

Edit: Also, I totally thought the Fade spirit in Awakening would be Valor again. Ha.

Though the opposite of Valor is probably a templar Cowardice. XD

The PC's response to Mouse's FREEDOM rant is kind of funny: "You're getting a little crazy there, Mouse." Ha ha, writers.

I was thinking Valor would get twisted basically into Leroy Jenkins-attacking without thinking. Basically a crazy fighter. Since Justice isn't really the opposite of Vengeance, at least in my head. Eh.

Ah, Mouse. I love you so much (I want to play an abomination PC, damnit!)
One day I am writing a fanfic where Mouse merges with Surana.... just as soon as I figure out what to do with Zev in this scenario.

Valor would probably become... Rage. Just sheer, unthinking KILL THEM ALL just because.

[Amondra]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Amondra wrote...

I think Anders would have been better off with a spirit of Valor in him...I don't think his rage with Valor would have been nearly as damaging. It would have just been harder for him to back down from a fight he believed in...also can you imagine that white knighting?

Justice Y U SO MEAN??!

Except then he would've been suicidally heroic instead of manic-depressive <_<  That stupid, adorable apostate can't win.

There are spirits that I think would be more resistant to corruption, or at least not as dangerous as Justice if corrupted.  What about something like Joy, or Compassion, or Faith?

True, but could you imagine Valor taking over and saying something like "I will defend your honor my lady!" Truly I think I would have died.

As for corrupting other spirits.  I think faith would be the worse only because blind faith is the worse kind and with Anders rage, faith would turn into a blind zealot.  I don't know about joy, but compassion would become Lust or Desire.  As to lust and desire something doesn't my physical.  Anders desires change hell he lusts for it half the time.

[Dreaming-in-Shadow]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Amondra wrote...

I think Anders would have been better off with a spirit of Valor in him...I don't think his rage with Valor would have been nearly as damaging. It would have just been harder for him to back down from a fight he believed in...also can you imagine that white knighting?

Justice Y U SO MEAN??!

Except then he would've been suicidally heroic instead of manic-depressive <_<  That stupid, adorable apostate can't win.

There are spirits that I think would be more resistant to corruption, or at least not as dangerous as Justice if corrupted.  What about something like Joy, or Compassion, or Faith?

Somehow I don't picture Faith being all too safe...

Joy would probably be a little hedonistic, and wouldn't survive very well in the real world.

I want to meet a spirit of Compassion. Hell, I want to merge Hawke with Compassion, kill Carver and mutate Compssion into hate and send her on a killing spree.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Dreaming-in-Shadow wrote...

Somehow I don't picture Faith being all too safe...

Joy would probably be a little hedonistic, and wouldn't survive very well in the real world.

I want to meet a spirit of Compassion. Hell, I want to merge Hawke with Compassion, kill Carver and mutate Compssion into hate and send her on a killing spree.

That's true.  I figured those spirits might be more resistant to corruption than Justice since they are more straightforwardly "good" concepts with fewer complications in the real world.  And when I say Faith, that doesn't just mean religious faith.  It can mean faith in other people, in yourself, in even a hope or an ideal.  I meant it in more of a secular, global sense.

[kromify]

anders; demon of lust    

excuse me just a moment...

lol; now i totally want a desire demon spliced into anders's love scene

Modifié par kromify, 02 mai 2011 - 09:12 .

[Dreaming-in-Shadow]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Dreaming-in-Shadow wrote...

Somehow I don't picture Faith being all too safe...

Joy would probably be a little hedonistic, and wouldn't survive very well in the real world.

I want to meet a spirit of Compassion. Hell, I want to merge Hawke with Compassion, kill Carver and mutate Compssion into hate and send her on a killing spree.

That's true.  I figured those spirits might be more resistant to corruption than Justice since they are more straightforwardly "good" concepts with fewer complications in the real world.  And when I say Faith, that doesn't just mean religious faith.  It can mean faith in other people, in yourself, in even a hope or an ideal.  I meant it in more of a secular, global sense.

Neither did I.
But Faith could easily become Pride under the right circumstances.

[YamiSnuffles]

Silfren wrote...

I actually think there's a solid reason for Anders not being Tranquiled, that has nothing to do with the magic used being elven in nature.

General consensus seems to be that most abominations don't involve spirits/demons being physically connected with their hosts, but somehow linked to them through the Fade.  (Connor and Wynne being the two most immediate examples).  Anders, on the other hand, is physically melded with Justice.  And we saw in the beginning that when Justice took full control of Anders, it caused Karl to be temporarily de-Tranquiled.  So it could easily be explained that Justice being fully merged with Anders makes him immune to becoming Tranquil. 

I'd like to see this explored more fully in the future, personally.  One thing I very much want to know is whether a non-mage can be made Tranquil--non-mages may not be able to enter the Fade consciously (at least without the help of a somniari's special talent), but the lore does establish that they enter it when they dream.  So obviously they have some kind of connection to it. In general the lore seems to be that everyone, mage and non-mage alike, derives their emotional capacity from the Fade.  It would be an interesting tie-in with the suggestion that at one time, per Sandal, everyone was capable of magic--that right there would explain why everyone has access to the Fade in some form, even though not everyone has magical ability.

While I do agree that Justice probably makes it impossible for Anders to be made Tranquil, I don't think that's what saved him in Feynriel's dream. In that case it has to have something to do with the magic Marethari did. If it was only Justice saving him from being made Tranquil, that wouldn't explain why Merrill is also not made Tranquil when killed in the Fade in that quest. So something about that ritual protected the people who were sent into the Fade.

As for non-mages being made Tranquil, I sometimes wonder about this too. I really don't know enough about why/how people are made Tranquil to guess about it though.

Modifié par YamiSnuffles, 02 mai 2011 - 09:19 .

[YamiSnuffles]

kromify wrote...

anders; demon of lust    

excuse me just a moment...

lol; now i totally want a desire demon spliced into anders's love scene

There's no reason to splice in a desire demon when Anders is there. He already fills that role quite nicely.

[kromify]

YamiSnuffles wrote...

Silfren wrote...

I actually think there's a solid reason for Anders not being Tranquiled, that has nothing to do with the magic used being elven in nature.

General consensus seems to be that most abominations don't involve spirits/demons being physically connected with their hosts, but somehow linked to them through the Fade.  (Connor and Wynne being the two most immediate examples).  Anders, on the other hand, is physically melded with Justice.  And we saw in the beginning that when Justice took full control of Anders, it caused Karl to be temporarily de-Tranquiled.  So it could easily be explained that Justice being fully merged with Anders makes him immune to becoming Tranquil. 

I'd like to see this explored more fully in the future, personally.  One thing I very much want to know is whether a non-mage can be made Tranquil--non-mages may not be able to enter the Fade consciously (at least without the help of a somniari's special talent), but the lore does establish that they enter it when they dream.  So obviously they have some kind of connection to it. In general the lore seems to be that everyone, mage and non-mage alike, derives their emotional capacity from the Fade.  It would be an interesting tie-in with the suggestion that at one time, per Sandal, everyone was capable of magic--that right there would explain why everyone has access to the Fade in some form, even though not everyone has magical ability.

While I do agree that Justice probably makes it impossible for Anders to be made Tranquil, I don't think that's what saved him in Feynriel's dream. In that case it has to have something to do with the magic Marethari did. If it was only Justice saving him from being made Tranquil, that wouldn't explain why Merrill is also not made Tranquil when killed in the Fade in that quest. So something about that ritual protected the people who were sent into the Fade.

i think that's why we were lead to believe that the group was in the fade physically; despite friends waking up. and then they should be dead physically

it's magic. a wizard did it

[Dreaming-in-Shadow]

ElleMullineux wrote...

Dreaming-in-Shadow wrote...

ElleMullineux wrote...

It's a tough one, and I'm still not 100% convinced that blood magic = always evil. Admittedly I try not to have Merril in my party for fights because it annoys the jebus out of me when she does her freaky thing and makes me unable to attack (I only play mages for science - my canon characters are all femRogues, can't abide not being able to unlock chests/doors and I like the speed of the rights).
Anyway, blood magic. Obviously it can be used for horrifically awful things, but are there more mundane uses where it's a viable alternative to lyrium? Is part of the horror about it that it is unknown and as we've seen used in the wrong hands? How much different is necromancy to the high-level healing/ regroup spells? Where do you draw the line?

Like Idunna said = "Blood and desire in equal measure."

Blood Magic itself is not evil. It's apparently the one and only school of magic that has no connection to the fade at all. (Aside from the whole "learning from demons thing")

However it's fueled by life force instead of mana, and a blood mage will always be tempted to take more power than they need. Like a drug, they'll want more and more, until finally they go batsh*t crazy.

Hence the number of loopy, evil blood mages.

Do we know this for fact or is it just the blood mages we've met have all been nuts? (Aside from Merril who's a sandwich short of a picnic anyway). I feel like I want to know more about Tevinter, they've obviously got a much better handle on magic and I want to know what they know.

The desire only gets worse if they succumb to it, I presume.
Seriously, have we ever encountered any maleficar who were all there?

I think Tevinter will be the location of the last Dragon Age game.
Fingers crossed. I really want to go there.

Actually thinking about Merrill I couldn't rivalry her the second time through after Chantry go Boom, I felt like a massive hypocrit for agreeing with Anders and then not agreeing with Merrill as well, the bit she says about not having piles of lyrium to hand and making use of the tools available seemed to make a lot of sense to me. Which still leaves me in a quandry over blood magic... is it just the demon involvement that then makes it inherintly worse? And how do the magic elves control their power? Is it linked to the blood tatoos? But back to Anders, he wants to take the decision and accept the punishment for the good of mages who don't necessarily want his help, and Merril seems to me to be in the same boat with the Dalish. Maybe it's just the cute brown eyes that make me think anything Anders would do is permissable?

I'd like to know where demons learnt blood magic... <_<

As for Keeper magic - not a clue.
I read somewhere that apparently blood magic was the first form of magic, and that the ancient elves taught it to the humans of the Tevinter Imperium...

Both Merrill and Anders are/were at some point ridiculously naive, and they pay for it.

It's the puppy-dog eyes that makes them irrisistable. <_<

Modifié par Dreaming-in-Shadow, 02 mai 2011 - 09:21 .

[kromify]

YamiSnuffles wrote...

kromify wrote...

anders; demon of lust    

excuse me just a moment...

lol; now i totally want a desire demon spliced into anders's love scene

There's no reason to splice in a desire demon when Anders is there. He already fills that role quite nicely.

even better idea... splice anders into every desire demons slot!!!!  see him run his hands up, down and everywhere... 


edit; fixed format

Modifié par kromify, 02 mai 2011 - 09:21 .

[Silfren]

On the subject of what spirits could possibly be warped into demons and those who might be immune...I'm not sure we should be looking at the opposites, or inverses, of the various traits. Vengeance, after all, is by no means the opposite of Justice. So I don't think that if Valor were to be corrupted, it would be into Cowardice, for one example. The example of justice suggests not that demons are the polar opposite to their virtue counterparts, but the most negative expression of those virtues, as suggested by the very idea that they are corrupted---after all, corrupted justice, or a warped, misguided notion of justice, is precisely what vengeance is.

To use another example: Faith, I've no doubt, could be easily corrupted. But the opposite of Faith would be something like Doubt, or Disbelief. Faith corrupted would be Fanaticism.

[Dreaming-in-Shadow]

kromify wrote...

YamiSnuffles wrote...

kromify wrote...

anders; demon of lust    

excuse me just a moment...

lol; now i totally want a desire demon spliced into anders's love scene

There's no reason to splice in a desire demon when Anders is there. He already fills that role quite nicely.

even better idea... splice anders into every desire demons slot!!!!  see him run his hands up, down and everywhere... 

Stop it you two! You're giving me the most wonderfuly terrible sexy mind-images!