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[Dreaming-in-Shadow]

Batteries wrote...

But but the game doesn't give the choice to kill him before the chantry blows up! Bioware IS TAKING MY CHOICE AWAY.



I don't get it.

Somebody should take these people aside and explain what a "plotline" is.

And I really don't get why people are whining that Anders isn't the same anymore. Pay attention.
Dialogue one, just a few sentences in and the first word out of his mouth is "My Cat".

(Maker, he loved his cat. I wouldn't be surprised if when he's not having romance banters with Hawke, making witty comments or ranting about mages, he's going on about Pounce.)

I guess most just decided "I dun like Anders no more" and didn't pay enough attention to notice the little slips back into old-Anders.
People change over time. It's this thing we do.

---

Umm... crap.

Modifié par Dreaming-in-Shadow, 04 mai 2011 - 10:42 .

[ipgd]

If DA2 came out before 9/11 it wouldn't have been nearly as impactful as it was. People have very good reasons for hating Anders. He is a terrorist. I consider the fact so many people despise him a success of the narrative, not something to be upset about.

Loss of player agency can be a very deliberate and effective device when used in games that otherwise provide player agency, and certainly a good thing when used correctly (which I believe it was, judging by player reactions). It's true, people would feel much less strongly about the destruction of the chantry if they'd had any say in it -- and that's the point. The series provides you with a frame of reference in which you have significant (or a at least an appearance of) player agency (i.e. DAO), and manipulates your emotions by violating your established series pattern expectations via a denial of agency. The tension of things like Leandra's death and the destruction of the Chantry is based on powerlessness.

[Dreaming-in-Shadow]

ipgd wrote...

If DA2 came out before 9/11 it wouldn't have been nearly as impactful as it was. People have very good reasons for hating Anders. He is a terrorist. I consider the fact so many people despise him a success of the narrative, not something to be upset about.

Loss of player agency can be a very deliberate and effective device when used in games that otherwise provide player agency, and certainly a good thing when used correctly (which I believe it was, judging by player reactions). It's true, people would feel much less strongly about the destruction of the chantry if they'd had any say in it -- and that's the point. The series provides you with a frame of reference in which you have significant (or a at least an appearance of) player agency (i.e. DAO), and manipulates your emotions by violating your established series pattern expectations via a denial of agency. The tension of things like Leandra's death and the destruction of the Chantry is based on powerlessness.

All good points, and strong reactions show a good plot. (I haven't been this emotionall effected by a game in years)

The bit that annoys me is when they insist there's nothing of the old Anders in DA2.
(Then again, I suppose not overybody enjoys disecting every literary component in a story from the smallest plot twists to the most uninteresting of secondary characters, and studying them intensely)

[kromify]

 terrorist is such a weighted term...

[Jean]

TripLight wrote...

Batteries wrote...

At this point I think Shepard has at least earned the F-It response.

Undoubtedly, and the poor Warden, well I think they are allowed to have a one time "massacre the **** out of the powers that be" with no repercussions...not like that woulda have stopped Isani Surana but still..

Shepard needs a "moment" with the ME1 Council. Just a small.... Moment. Preferably involving airquoting.

But love how DAII gives you a feeling of powerlessness, more so at the end. It makes it feel more human. There isn't always a scapegoat and there isn't always a Godly Superhero option that fixes everything.

And I agree with what is said above last page about the dialogue. I do wish there was also a way to support mages yet argue with Anders about his little case of possession and his methods. More than just one simple line about it that doesn't really lead anywhere. Something more firm.
Having something that can track both of those argument in the game. Might be programming hell but it makes me smile.

Modifié par Batteries, 04 mai 2011 - 10:50 .

[Dreaming-in-Shadow]

Batteries wrote...

Shepard needs a "moment" with the ME1 Council. Just a small.... Moment. Preferably involving airquoting.

Preferably involving a certain three dead aliens' corpses lying on the bloody floor... <_<

[Jean]

Only if these "Reapers" do it.

<kasumi>Reapers!</kasumi>

[ipgd]

kromify wrote...

 terrorist is such a weighted term...

And obviously intended, considering our current cultural climate and its parallels to real world events. Arguments can be made for what constitutes a military combatant, but the spirit of the attack and its narrative thread is very much intended to recall terrorist actions.

[Rinji the Bearded]

I think some people are afraid to call him a terrorist because suddenly that must mean that they like a terrorist. Well, you do, but there's nothing wrong with that, especially since his actions impact a fictional world that only loosely parallels ours.

I think his character is one of the stronger ones in the bunch, so I can't help but love the stupid sexy bastard.

[Dreaming-in-Shadow]

It's odd that the fastest I've seen this thread move in a fortnight, was when we were discussing the "Hawkespawn" (as they're now known. Though whether that should be a reference to Baldur's Gate or the Blight, I'm not sure...)

[kromify]

i just think calling him a terrorist causes an automatic hate reation

[YamiSnuffles]

Does anyone watch the web series Hey Ash, Watch Playin'? One of their recent episodes seems relevant to our current discussion. It's not the exact same situation (different game and all) but their take on supporting videogame terrorists is at least good for a chuckle, perhaps.

Dreaming-in-Shadow wrote...

It's odd that the fastest I've
seen this thread move in a fortnight, was when we were discussing the
"Hawkespawn" (as they're now known. Though whether that should be a
reference to Baldur's Gate or the Blight, I'm not sure...)

I found this pretty funny. Apparently babbies are the only thing to get this thread worked up any more.

Modifié par YamiSnuffles, 04 mai 2011 - 11:24 .

[Heidenreich]

Dreaming-in-Shadow wrote...

It's odd that the fastest I've seen this thread move in a fortnight, was when we were discussing the "Hawkespawn" (as they're now known. Though whether that should be a reference to Baldur's Gate or the Blight, I'm not sure...)

I prefer when solid conversations run a little slower, gives me a chance to put in my .5 cents, and really grasp what others are trying to get across.

That being said, Terrorism is hardly what the American Government has painted for us mindless U.S. "eaters". Terrorism isn't something done by bad bad evil evil horrible omg terrible evil baby killing men and women. Its done by people who truely feel their cause is worth the life-changing alteration of the world. Its done to get the words attention. "This needs to change, and all our other attempts to prove it to you are falling on deaf ears. Here, take an exploding building. See if you pay attention NOW."

As a result, it changes the view point of the targeted audience. Be it to show the world that <so in so religion is badmkay> or that <such and such government is less innocent then its people are lead to believe> or even <the circle doesnt work>. What ever the reason, it's not some all encompacing evil. Its just a very.. drastic.. means to an end.

I'll spare you my opinions on Osama and said terrorist attack in question..

but the point remains that half the reason people hate anders so much is because they make parallels to something they've "lived through". And by lived through, I mostly mean watched on tv. We've been taught that terrorists are "pure evil satan x10". So we react to ANY acts of terrorism, fictional or not, in such a way.

and I think I lost what I was originally trying to say...

Oh right.. You can draw parallels from real life to a computer character, but you have to remember the deffinition of Parallel lines! They are exactly the same, except they can never cross.

Aka: It seems the same, but its not, and it needs to be lightly reminded that COMPUTER GAMES AREN'T REAL ;p

[Dreaming-in-Shadow]

kromify wrote...

i just think calling him a terrorist causes an automatic hate reation

He got the automatic hate reaction for an act of terrorism (not a pretty term, but unfortunately, a true one), and f course I suppose those who hadn't played the game completely might see the term and go insta-hate.

I didn't really make the connection of Chantry to Terrorism until my third play through.
Still not bothered.
At least somebody did something! Kirkwall would probably have crumbled just from the sheer force of Meredith and Orsino's unsated sexual tension the hostile tension between templars and mages otherwise! Besides. Naked Elthina dreams. She had to die. It just had to be done.

[Ryzaki]

kromify wrote...

i just think calling him a terrorist causes an automatic hate reation

True. I don't really mind it. *shrugs* If someone wants to hate a character let them. It's not hurting anyone. If someone can love a character for any reason someone else can hate them for any reason. Live and let live. 

They're pixels. Their feelings aren't going to be hurt from someone bashing them on the forums. 

That said I see Anders as a terrorist and worthy of condemnation. It may be the superhero lover in me but I draw the line at killing innocent people to make a point. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 04 mai 2011 - 11:33 .

[Sable Rhapsody]

Dreaming-in-Shadow wrote...

It's odd that the fastest I've seen this thread move in a fortnight, was when we were discussing the "Hawkespawn" (as they're now known. Though whether that should be a reference to Baldur's Gate or the Blight, I'm not sure...)

Why can't it be a reference to both? 

As for terrorism...bleh.  One man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter, blah blah.  Though IMO, terrorists do what they do to, you know, terrify people.  That wasn't Anders' intention.  His intention wasn't to strike fear and horror into the heart of the common man.  His intention was to galvanize the world.

[Miri1984]

I just hate that the knee jerk reaction to any non-government sanctioned act of violence is HATEHATEHATE. Because governments aren't always good, and some of the worst acts of terrorism have been perpetrated by people in power through legitimate channels.

The reason why terrorism is seen so negatively is because of who it's attacking at the moment. If <pick any horrifically oppressed population of the many currently around> were blowing up government buildings in protest against their treatment we would be calling it freedom fighting.

[Dreaming-in-Shadow]

I wonder. If DA2 had seen Hawke as a mage in the Gallows, being systematically abused by the templars, and then successfully managed to escape and had to fight for their freedom, would the reaction the Anders' "Chantry-moment" have been different?

I think so.

[Ryzaki]

Dreaming-in-Shadow wrote...

I wonder. If DA2 had seen Hawke as a mage in the Gallows, being systematically abused by the templars, and then successfully managed to escape and had to fight for their freedom, would the reaction the Anders' "Chantry-moment" have been different?

I think so.

That would've been an interesting way to play. That said I see the reaction to the Chantry moment being worse. Because then Anders' Jenga just condemned all your friends to death. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 04 mai 2011 - 11:37 .

[Dreaming-in-Shadow]

Miri1984 wrote...

I just hate that the knee jerk reaction to any non-government sanctioned act of violence is HATEHATEHATE. Because governments aren't always good, and some of the worst acts of terrorism have been perpetrated by people in power through legitimate channels.

The reason why terrorism is seen so negatively is because of who it's attacking at the moment. If <pick any horrifically oppressed population of the many currently around> were blowing up government buildings in protest against their treatment we would be calling it freedom fighting.

I can think of a recent example. Not naming it, just in case I step on toes, but I think everybody can guess.

I suppose across history it's been like that.

I love having a neutral disinterested view on reality.

[Dreaming-in-Shadow]

Ryzaki wrote...

Dreaming-in-Shadow wrote...

I wonder. If DA2 had seen Hawke as a mage in the Gallows, being systematically abused by the templars, and then successfully managed to escape and had to fight for their freedom, would the reaction the Anders' "Chantry-moment" have been different?

I think so.

That would've been an interesting way to play. That said I see the reaction to the Chantry moment being worse. Because then Anders' Jenga just condemned all your friends to death. 

I get the impression mages in the Gallows wouldn't have friends really...
But good point.

It'd be interesting to play as a templar, too.

[Miri1984]

Ryzaki wrote...

Dreaming-in-Shadow wrote...

I wonder. If DA2 had seen Hawke as a mage in the Gallows, being systematically abused by the templars, and then successfully managed to escape and had to fight for their freedom, would the reaction the Anders' "Chantry-moment" have been different?

I think so.

That would've been an interesting way to play. That said I see the reaction to the Chantry moment being worse. Because then Anders' Jenga just condemned all your friends to death. 

Except that it didn't. Because the rite of annulment was Meredith's crazy reaction to the Jenga, not something Anders could have predicted. Everyone does a WTF? moment when she says she has to annul the circle. And from what Keras says the rite has already been asked for in any case - it wasn't Anders' action that condemned them all to death, it was Meredith.

If Anders hadn't blown up the Chantry there would have been either a rite of annulment or an exalted march any way, both of which aren't likely to keep your friends alive.

[Ryzaki]

Dreaming-in-Shadow wrote...
I get the impression mages in the Gallows wouldn't have friends really...
But good point.

It'd be interesting to play as a templar, too.

I don't know. A couple of mages managed to fall in love with one another so I'm guessing they were allowed to meet and talk with one another. It's not like they were always kept in isolation. They were lashed for talking to civilians but I doubt there was any consequences for them talking with one another. 

Preferably someone working with Thrask. One of the only sane people in Kirkwall and he's killed by that b****. <_<

[Ryzaki]

Miri1984 wrote...
Except that it didn't. Because the rite of annulment was Meredith's crazy reaction to the Jenga, not something Anders could have predicted. Everyone does a WTF? moment when she says she has to annul the circle. And from what Keras says the rite has already been asked for in any case - it wasn't Anders' action that condemned them all to death, it was Meredith.

And Meredith was only able to do it because Anders' Jenga took out the Grand Cleric. He was banking on her envoking the rite. His entire plan hinged on her anulling the circle to make a point. He offers the gallows' mages friends as a sacrifice for his cause. I doubt most people would appreciate that. No matter how necessary Anders feels it was. 

She didn't have enough power to do so until then so yes a direct result of Anders' Jenga was giving Meredith the ability to act on her desire to anull the circle. Without Anders that wouldn't have happened at that moment. 

If Anders hadn't blown up the Chantry there would have been either a rite of annulment or an exalted march any way, both of which aren't likely to keep your friends alive.

Not necessarily. There might have been because the Divine was considering it but it wasn't set in stone. 

That rite of anullment from Meredith isnt going to keep your friends alive either. 

Only thing Anders' Jenga does is get gallow mages killed faster. That's nothing to be grateful for. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 04 mai 2011 - 11:50 .

[thebrute7]

Miri1984 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Dreaming-in-Shadow wrote...

I wonder. If DA2 had seen Hawke as a mage in the Gallows, being systematically abused by the templars, and then successfully managed to escape and had to fight for their freedom, would the reaction the Anders' "Chantry-moment" have been different?

I think so.

That would've been an interesting way to play. That said I see the reaction to the Chantry moment being worse. Because then Anders' Jenga just condemned all your friends to death. 

Except that it didn't. Because the rite of annulment was Meredith's crazy reaction to the Jenga, not something Anders could have predicted. Everyone does a WTF? moment when she says she has to annul the circle. And from what Keras says the rite has already been asked for in any case - it wasn't Anders' action that condemned them all to death, it was Meredith.

If Anders hadn't blown up the Chantry there would have been either a rite of annulment or an exalted march any way, both of which aren't likely to keep your friends alive.

This.  Oh and Ryzaki, I totally agree about Thrask.  He's one of the few sane templars and what does Grace go and do?  Figures.  Everyone in Kirkwall is INSANE!