57020 réponses à ce sujet

[Dreaming-in-Shadow]

thebrute7 wrote...

This.  Oh and Ryzaki, I totally agree about Thrask.  He's one of the few sane templars and what does Grace go and do?  Figures.  Everyone in Kirkwall is INSANE!

Three things:
1) Gracey was always going to be a Psychoooooobiiiitch~!!! (And my playlist switched to Drowning Pool - Bodies at that moment which was... yeah... Psychob*tch)
2) That totally crushed my hope of getting Anders/Justice to see that Templars needn't always be the enemy of mages.
3) I diagnose Kirkwall with Silent Hill Syndrome.

---

AGAIN!?

Modifié par Dreaming-in-Shadow, 04 mai 2011 - 11:50 .

[Jean]

kirkwall was just going to get exalted eventually.
to much cray cray up in there for the divine.

[Dreaming-in-Shadow]

Batteries wrote...

kirkwall was just going to get exalted eventually.
to much cray cray up in there for the divine.

Might be my personal mistrust for powerful people, but...

The Divine: Regal B*tch (alas Leliana, I hope you are spying for the Warden, or I'm afraid I might have to kill you one day)
The First Warden: ****

[Ryzaki]

Batteries wrote...

kirkwall was just going to get exalted eventually.
to much cray cray up in there for the divine.

Yeah it's enough to make me miss Fereldan. Land of the sane and smell of wet dog. 

[dpMeggers]

Miri1984 wrote...

I just hate that the knee jerk reaction to any non-government sanctioned act of violence is HATEHATEHATE. Because governments aren't always good, and some of the worst acts of terrorism have been perpetrated by people in power through legitimate channels.

The reason why terrorism is seen so negatively is because of who it's attacking at the moment. If <pick any horrifically oppressed population of the many currently around> were blowing up government buildings in protest against their treatment we would be calling it freedom fighting.

This. At the moment the terrorist poster-child is al-Qaeda and associated groups.

But 30-40 years ago more active terrorist groups were the IRA in Northern Ireland (think pipe-bombs among other things), and the PLQ in Canada (kidnapping and killing of the British Ambassador), and both those groups had some popular support in other places, and with them it was less about them declaring war on a good half of the globe and more about fighting for what they believed were their rights (My agreement or disagreement with this assessment of their rights and the best way to get them is irrelevant, this is the reason they were fighting).

What I'm trying to say with this is that our view of terrorism, and the Chantry explosion as a terrorist action (which I believe it is), is coloured by the world we're living in, and some people don't seem to want to look past the parallel, and into the game world.

And I have the distinct impression that I may be preeching to the choir with this, but I wanted to get it off my chest anyway.

[Miri1984]

Ryzaki wrote...

Miri1984 wrote...
Except that it didn't. Because the rite of annulment was Meredith's crazy reaction to the Jenga, not something Anders could have predicted. Everyone does a WTF? moment when she says she has to annul the circle. And from what Keras says the rite has already been asked for in any case - it wasn't Anders' action that condemned them all to death, it was Meredith.

And Meredith was only able to do it because Anders' Jenga took out the Grand Cleric. He was banking on her envoking the rite. His entire plan hinged on her anulling the circle to make a point. He offers the gallows' mages friends as a sacrifice for his cause. I doubt most people would appreciate that. No matter how necessary Anders feels it was. 

She didn't have enough power to do so until then so yes a direct result of Anders' Jenga was giving Meredith the ability to act on her desire to anull the circle. Without Anders that wouldn't have happened at that moment. 

If Anders hadn't blown up the Chantry there would have been either a rite of annulment or an exalted march any way, both of which aren't likely to keep your friends alive.

Not necessarily. There might have been because the Divine was considering it but it wasn't set in stone. 

That rite of anullment from Meredith isnt going to keep your friends alive either. 

Only thing Anders' Jenga does is get gallow mages killed faster. That's nothing to be grateful for. 

This is how I see it going through his head:

On the friendship path:

Blow up Chantry-Get killed for it-Become Martyr-Galvinise mages into rebellion

On the rival path

Try to stop from blowing up chantry-fail-get killed for it-hope he never has to see the consequences of his actions

I honestly don't think he's thinking "If I blow up the Chantry, Meredith will blame ALL mages and annul the Kirkwall Circle." He's not that smart. REALLY. 

IF he is, on the friendship path I figure he'd be thinking something like this: 

Blow up chantry-get killed for it-Meredith annuls circle- my buddy Hawke defends the mages and whoops her arse.

on the rival path he'd be thinking

WELL ****.

Because we've already established that on the rival path he doesn't WANT to blow up the chantry, that's Justice. And it's quite possible Justice thinks it's ok for Meredith to annul the Kirkwall circle.

Confusing, but the summary of it is, Anders isn't willing to sacrifice the mages of the Kirkwall circle. He desperately wants to defend them if you let him live, so I doubt ANYWHERE in the plan was "all the mages of the Kirkwall circle die". The only person he wants martyred is himself.

[Ryzaki]

Miri1984 wrote....
This is how I see it going through his head:

On the friendship path:

Blow up Chantry-Get killed for it-Become Martyr-Galvinise mages into rebellion

 

...And he would become a matryr why? For blowing up a Chantry and being summary executed and having everyone go home? 

He was trying to expose injustice and destroy compromise. That doesn't work unless Meredith tries to annull the circle for his crime. Anders' isn't a complete idiot. He had to be aware of that much. He was willing to give Meredith enough power to call an annullment and have the gallow mages killed. I don't see any gallow mage thanking him for this. 

On the rival path

Try to stop from blowing up chantry-fail-get killed for it-hope he never has to see the consequences of his actions

I honestly don't think he's thinking "If I blow up the Chantry, Meredith will blame ALL mages and annul the Kirkwall Circle." He's not that smart. REALLY. 

IF he is, on the friendship path I figure he'd be thinking something like this: 

Blow up chantry-get killed for it-Meredith annuls circle- my buddy Hawke defends the mages and whoops her arse.

on the rival path he'd be thinking

WELL ****.

Because we've already established that on the rival path he doesn't WANT to blow up the chantry, that's Justice. And it's quite possible Justice thinks it's ok for Meredith to annul the Kirkwall circle.

Confusing, but the summary of it is, Anders isn't willing to sacrifice the mages of the Kirkwall circle. He desperately wants to defend them if you let him live, so I doubt ANYWHERE in the plan was "all the mages of the Kirkwall circle die". The only person he wants martyred is himself.

If he wasn't willing to sacifice the mages of the Kirkwall circle than he shouldn't have given  Meredith the ability to invoke the rite of anullment. It's like giving a hysterical wife a gun and acting shocked when she kills her abusive husband with it. 

And Anders himself (on the friendship path) says he and Justice were in agreement about blowing up the Chantry. He wanted to do it as much as Justice in that scenario. He only changes his mind when Rival Hawke points out that the only thing the Jenga will do is make people more fearful towards mages and less likely to want to peacefully coexist with them. 

[Kawamura]

Anyone else tracking the kinkmeme and not getting e-mail updates the last... 24 hours or so?

I'm like, heartbroken over here.

[MelRedux]

Ryzaki wrote...

Miri1984 wrote....
This is how I see it going through his head:

On the friendship path:

Blow up Chantry-Get killed for it-Become Martyr-Galvinise mages into rebellion

 

...And he would become a matryr why? For blowing up a Chantry and being summary executed and having everyone go home? 

Um, yes?  Martyr definition:" One who makes great sacrifices or suffers much in order to further a belief"

In this case, blowing up the chantry.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Ryzaki wrote...

Preferably someone working with Thrask. One of the only sane people in Kirkwall and he's killed by that b****. <_<

It figure that the first time my RL name appears in a BioWare game, it's attached to the craziest blood mage evar   My best friend lost no time in pointing out the irony of that.

[Ryzaki]

Mel_Redux wrote...
Um, yes?  Martyr definition:" One who makes great sacrifices or suffers much in order to further a belief"

In this case, blowing up the chantry.

So...blowing up the Chantry and being killed (with everyone agreeing that he and only he should be killed for this) would somehow make him a matryr?

For what exactly? 

I'm not being snarky I'm geniunely confused. 

If Meredith doesn't call the rite and simply has Anders' executed...what exactly did he try to accomplish? What corruption and injustice has he exposed? What ideal has he given his life for? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 05 mai 2011 - 12:19 .

[Lady Jess]

Ryzaki wrote...

Mel_Redux wrote...
Um, yes?  Martyr definition:" One who makes great sacrifices or suffers much in order to further a belief"

In this case, blowing up the chantry.

So...blowing up the Chantry and being killed (with everyone agreeing that he and only he should be killed for this) would somehow make him a matryr?

For what exactly? 

I'm not being snarky I'm geniunely confused. 

The same way suicide bomber become martyrs for THEIR beliefs.

[thebrute7]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Preferably someone working with Thrask. One of the only sane people in Kirkwall and he's killed by that b****. <_<

It figure that the first time my RL name appears in a BioWare game, it's attached to the craziest blood mage evar   My best friend lost no time in pointing out the irony of that.

I'm still waiting for mine... It'll probably be attached to one of those boring guys who says "here's a quest for some money go do it."

[Ryzaki]

Lady Jess wrote...
The same way suicide bomber become martyrs for THEIR beliefs.

Suicide bombers usually have people behind them. (loaded people at that). Anders was working on his own. 

What principle is he dying for without Meredith injustily killing the mages for his crime? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 05 mai 2011 - 12:20 .

[purplecookie]

Miri1984 wrote...

This is how I see it going through his head:

On the friendship path:

Blow up Chantry-Get killed for it-Become Martyr-Galvinise mages into rebellion

On the rival path

Try to stop from blowing up chantry-fail-get killed for it-hope he never has to see the consequences of his actions

I honestly don't think he's thinking "If I blow up the Chantry, Meredith will blame ALL mages and annul the Kirkwall Circle." He's not that smart. REALLY. 

IF he is, on the friendship path I figure he'd be thinking something like this: 

Blow up chantry-get killed for it-Meredith annuls circle- my buddy Hawke defends the mages and whoops her arse.

on the rival path he'd be thinking

WELL ****.

Re the bolded part, I know he makes mention (or at least I vaguely recall) of being a martyr of sorts, but my impression of the friendship path is more that he feels those that were killed when the chantry was blown up need justice, which his death would serve to provide, so I'm not sure how much weight he's giving to "I will be remembered as a martyr so please kill me". This notion that his death is needed for justice for the victims seems hinted at earlier in the game also with his conversation with Isabela, I forget the exact wording but it alludes to the idea that Anders sees his death mainly for that reason. Apologies if I'm misinterpreting what you've written, it's very late here, I should get to bed but I can't stop working on some fanart...

[Dunizel]

You know, I think Anders imagines the mages in Kirkwall to be able to put up more than THAT fight.
He thought that removing compromise, he could force a war and fight alongside the other mages. But the thing is, the good mages in Kirkwall, the one that didn't want to resort to blood magic and demons, they were simply resigned. Too many years of oppression, maybe no education on defensive and offensive spells, maybe only a few senior ones could defend themselves a bit...I don't know, maybe he has a romantic idea of this rebellion, maybe he thought it could be Glorious...but it wasn't really. He simply condemned them, willing or not.

[bleetman]

If martyrdom was his intent, Hawke stole his thunder anyway. You don't hear about the mages shouting "Anders!" as a battle cry, after all.

Modifié par bleetman, 05 mai 2011 - 12:22 .

[MelRedux]

Ryzaki wrote...

Mel_Redux wrote...
Um, yes?  Martyr definition:" One who makes great sacrifices or suffers much in order to further a belief"

In this case, blowing up the chantry.

So...blowing up the Chantry and being killed (with everyone agreeing that he and only he should be killed for this) would somehow make him a matryr?

For what exactly? 

I'm not being snarky I'm geniunely confused. 

If Meredith doesn't call the rite and simply has Anders' executed...what exactly did he try to accomplish? What corruption and injustice has he exposed? What ideal has he given his life for? 

He sacrificed the lives of all those in the chantry. Let's be real, he knew he was killing innocents, and I don't think he was dancing a jig about it.  He sacrificed the lives of others to call attention to the power that the Chantry (and Templars) had over amges, making them nothing but slaves and prisoners.

The sacrifice: Death of innocents
The belief: Mages should be free

I am NOT arguing that what he did was right or sane.  But the word "martyr" can definitely apply to this situation.  Others who ahve the same beliefs, that mages should be free, can look up to him as a martyr that attempted to further their beliefs.

[Ryzaki]

Dunizel wrote...

You know, I think Anders imagines the mages in Kirkwall to be able to put up more than THAT fight.
He thought that removing compromise, he could force a war and fight alongside the other mages. But the thing is, the good mages in Kirkwall, the one that didn't want to resort to blood magic and demons, they were simply resigned. Too many years of oppression, maybe no education on defensive and offensive spells, maybe only a few senior ones could defend themselves a bit...I don't know, maybe he has a romantic idea of this rebellion, maybe he thought it could be Glorious...but it wasn't really. He simply condemned them, willing or not.

I agree with this but especially the bolded. For someone who was a warden he has an eeriely romantic ideal on this war he's trying to start. 

It's disturbing. 

[Sable Rhapsody]

thebrute7 wrote...

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Preferably someone working with Thrask. One of the only sane people in Kirkwall and he's killed by that b****. <_<

It figure that the first time my RL name appears in a BioWare game, it's attached to the craziest blood mage evar   My best friend lost no time in pointing out the irony of that.

I'm still waiting for mine... It'll probably be attached to one of those boring guys who says "here's a quest for some money go do it."

LOL.  I suppose it could be worse.  I could be named Quentin or Meredith or something.  I suppose in the grand scheme of things, sharing a name with Grace isn't the worst that could happen.

[ipgd]

bleetman wrote...

If martyrdom was his intent, Hawke stole his thunder anyway. You don't hear about the mages shouting "Anders!" as a battle cry, after all.

You don't hear about the mages shouting anything. We don't know enough to say anything about the fallout of the jenga.

[Ryzaki]

Mel_Redux wrote...
He sacrificed the lives of all those in the chantry. Let's be real, he knew he was killing innocents, and I don't think he was dancing a jig about it.  He sacrificed the lives of others to call attention to the power that the Chantry (and Templars) had over amges, making them nothing but slaves and prisoners.

The sacrifice: Death of innocents
The belief: Mages should be free

I am NOT arguing that what he did was right or sane.  But the word "martyr" can definitely apply to this situation.  Others who ahve the same beliefs, that mages should be free, can look up to him as a martyr that attempted to further their beliefs.

But again that doesn't do anything without Meredith calling the rite of annullment.  

All of that isn't shown by the Chantry being destroyed. Hell none of it is. It is shown however by Meredith calling the rite of annullment. 

The only way he can become a martyr in that scenario (in my eyes and from what you wrote) is if Meredith calls the rite of annullment.  

How is he showing the chantry treats mages like slaves by him (an apostate) killing the Grand Cleric and other innocents? 

Hell that gives the Chantry justification for locking up the mages because look what the free ones do! 

The only thing that shows the chantry treating the mages like slaves would be exposing crimes like Ser Alrik to the general public or...wait for it the Knight Commander declaring that there need to be a rite of annullment for an apostate blowing up the Chantry. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 05 mai 2011 - 12:28 .

[bleetman]

ipgd wrote...

You don't hear about the mages shouting anything. We don't know enough to say anything about the fallout of the jenga.

I guess I misunderstood the whole "the Champion's name became a rallying cry, a reminder that the mighty Templars could be defied" and all that talk about the circles rising up, then.

Modifié par bleetman, 05 mai 2011 - 12:27 .

[SurelyForth]

Mel_Redux wrote...
He sacrificed the lives of all those in the chantry. Let's be real, he knew he was killing innocents, and I don't think he was dancing a jig about it.  He sacrificed the lives of others to call attention to the power that the Chantry (and Templars) had over amges, making them nothing but slaves and prisoners.

The sacrifice: Death of innocents
The belief: Mages should be free

I am NOT arguing that what he did was right or sane.  But the word "martyr" can definitely apply to this situation.  Others who ahve the same beliefs, that mages should be free, can look up to him as a martyr that attempted to further their beliefs.

And to further this...one of his skill tree talents is called Martyr. It's a thing. An Anders thing. 

@Ryazaki Actually, Anders could be called a martyr at any point in the game, if he dies for his cause. If he had been killed by Alrik during Dissent...martyr. Had participants in the Mage Underground been hunted out and had he died with them...martyr.

Even if Meredith didn't invoke the Right, he'd still be dying for blowing up the Chantry, which was done to advance his cause. Therefore, martry.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 05 mai 2011 - 12:31 .

[Sable Rhapsody]

Ryzaki wrote...

But again that doesn't do anything without Meredith calling the rite of annullment.  

All of that isn't shown by the Chantry being destroyed. Hell none of it is. It is shown however by Meredith calling the rite of annullment. 

The only way he can become a martyr in that scenario (in my eyes and from what you wrote) is if Meredith calls the rite of annullment.  

My guess is that Anders knew Meredith would respond with the Rite.  I mean, what did he think she would respond with?  Bunnies?

Meredith calling the Rite when the Circle mages had done nothing gives the mage rebellion its justification and galvanizes the mages across Thedas regardless of who Hawke executes, or which side s/he picks.  It's ruthless and awful to do something knowing innocents will die, but I gotta admire Anders' gambit.