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[purplecookie]

Ryzaki wrote...

Dunizel wrote...

You know, I think Anders imagines the mages in Kirkwall to be able to put up more than THAT fight.
He thought that removing compromise, he could force a war and fight alongside the other mages. But the thing is, the good mages in Kirkwall, the one that didn't want to resort to blood magic and demons, they were simply resigned. Too many years of oppression, maybe no education on defensive and offensive spells, maybe only a few senior ones could defend themselves a bit...I don't know, maybe he has a romantic idea of this rebellion, maybe he thought it could be Glorious...but it wasn't really. He simply condemned them, willing or not.

I agree with this but especially the bolded. For someone who was a warden he has an eeriely romantic ideal on this war he's trying to start. 

It's disturbing. 

Agree with the bolded too - he's naive, but then that was something I always felt about Justice too, very naive on his interpretation of the world and this is of course going to influence Anders's thinking too.

His impression of the potential repurcussions kind of makes me think about if you rescue a wild animal when very young, feed it until it grows up, and then feel like the kind thing to do is to release it out in the wild again. There's the romantic notion of "Hey it's like Born Free" only once the animal is back in its natural environment having had no training or experience at all... it doesn't end terribly well.

Edited for the top:

Modifié par purplecookie, 05 mai 2011 - 12:34 .

[MelRedux]

Ryzaki wrote...

Mel_Redux wrote...
He sacrificed the lives of all those in the chantry. Let's be real, he knew he was killing innocents, and I don't think he was dancing a jig about it.  He sacrificed the lives of others to call attention to the power that the Chantry (and Templars) had over amges, making them nothing but slaves and prisoners.

The sacrifice: Death of innocents
The belief: Mages should be free

I am NOT arguing that what he did was right or sane.  But the word "martyr" can definitely apply to this situation.  Others who ahve the same beliefs, that mages should be free, can look up to him as a martyr that attempted to further their beliefs.

But again that doesn't do anything without Meredith calling the rite of annullment.  

All of that isn't shown by the Chantry being destroyed. Hell none of it is. It is shown however by Meredith calling the rite of annullment. 

The only way he can become a martyr in that scenario (in my eyes and from what you wrote) is if Meredith calls the rite of annullment.  

How is he showing the chantry treats mages like slaves by him (an apostate) killing the Grand Cleric and other innocents? 

Hell that gives the Chantry justification for locking up the mages because look what the free ones do! 

How is Al-Qaida's attack on the US on 9/11 showing how "evil" Americans are?  But to people who believe in the mission of Al-Qaida, all the pilots, suicide bombers, and now Bin Laden are martyrs. (yes I'm sorry, I went there)

I'm not saying what Anders does makes sense.  I don't agree with what he did.  But to the people who believe that amges should be free, he is most definitely a martyr.

Modifié par Mel_Redux, 05 mai 2011 - 12:30 .

[Lady Jess]

Ryzaki wrote...

Lady Jess wrote...
The same way suicide bomber become martyrs for THEIR beliefs.

Suicide bombers usually have people behind them. (loaded people at that). Anders was working on his own. 

What principle is he dying for without Meredith injustily killing the mages for his crime? 

My husband cleaned up after several independant suicide bombers. Noone behind them, armed with nothing but their belief that they must sacrifice themselves to please their God. Backed by nothing but the home brewed explosive on their body.

The principle? How can you posibly have MISSED that? I mean he says it ad nauseum the entire game. Freedom for mages! Mages should be free! mages are slaves! the circles are prisons! yadda yadda yadda

[Ryzaki]

bleetman wrote...
I guess I misunderstood the whole "the Champion's name became a rallying cry, a reminder that the mighty Templars could be defied" and all that talk about the circles rising up, then.

Yeah Hawke steals Anders thunder. 

Hawke tends to be good at that. 

[legbamel]

Threeparts wrote...
 Not gonna lie, I think Aveline would make a ****ing awesome mother.
She'd be all encouraging her daughter to beat up any guys that are mean to her, and she would be completely unphased by kids bringing home frogs and lizards and ****, and she'd be all "walk it off" with skinned knees and bumps on the head. Donnic would be in the kitchen baking pies while Aveline is making spaceships out of LEGO seige engines out of blocks.

And there would be freckles everywhere.

I'm still a million pages behind but I had to QFT.  Aveline and Donnic would have an awesome family.

[thebrute7]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

But again that doesn't do anything without Meredith calling the rite of annullment.  

All of that isn't shown by the Chantry being destroyed. Hell none of it is. It is shown however by Meredith calling the rite of annullment. 

The only way he can become a martyr in that scenario (in my eyes and from what you wrote) is if Meredith calls the rite of annullment.  

My guess is that Anders knew Meredith would respond with the Rite.  I mean, what did he think she would respond with?  Bunnies?

Meredith calling the Rite when the Circle mages had done nothing gives the mage rebellion its justification and galvanizes the mages across Thedas regardless of who Hawke executes, or which side s/he picks.  It's ruthless and awful to do something knowing innocents will die, but I gotta admire Anders' gambit.

I was under the impression he knew what would happen.  If Meredith hadn't called for the Right of Annulment then everything he did would have been for nothing.  He just would have died, the end.

It was a pretty good (bad) gambit come to think of it.  It's no Xanatos Gambit, but still a damn good one. 

[Sable Rhapsody]

Ryzaki wrote...

bleetman wrote...
I guess I misunderstood the whole "the Champion's name became a rallying cry, a reminder that the mighty Templars could be defied" and all that talk about the circles rising up, then.

Yeah Hawke steals Anders thunder. 

Hawke tends to be good at that. 

Well, "FOR THE CHAMPION" makes a better rallying cry than "For that one crazy apostate dude...guy...yeah." 

[Sable Rhapsody]

thebrute7 wrote...

I was under the impression he knew what would happen.  If Meredith hadn't called for the Right of Annulment then everything he did would have been for nothing.  He just would have died, the end.

It was a pretty good (bad) gambit come to think of it.  It's no Xanatos Gambit, but still a damn good one. 

Damn my misspellings.  Thank you for correcting me 

Upon replay, I did have to admire the gambit.  I think even my Hawke had a moment of, "DAMN, but that's devious" before she yelled at him for jeopardizing any goodwill toward mages among the general public.  

Christ on a ******, my Hawke's crazy.  She isn't angry at Anders because he blew up the Chantry.  She's angry because she thought he was SLOPPY.

[Ryzaki]

Mel_Redux wrote...
How is Al-Qaida's attack on the US on 9/11 showing how "evil" Americans are?  But to people who believe in the mission of Al-Qaida, all the pilots, suicide bombers, and now Bin Laden are martyrs. (yes I'm sorry, I went there)

I'm not saying what Anders does makes sense.  I don't agree with what he did.  But to the people who believe that amges should be free, he is most definitely a martyr.

 

How "evil" the americans are? You'll have to explain that to me. 

How on earth is he helping free the mages without Meredith calling the rite of annullment? How? How is he expecting mages to be free just by killing the Grand Cleric? The one person who was stopping Meredith from killing all the mages in the gallows? 

Lady Jess wrote...
My husband cleaned up after several independant suicide bombers. Noone behind them, armed with nothing but their belief that they must sacrifice themselves to please their God. Backed by nothing but the home brewed explosive on their body.

The principle? How can you posibly have MISSED that? I mean he says it ad nauseum the entire game. Freedom for mages! Mages should be free! mages are slaves! the circles are prisons! yadda yadda yadda

Blast Stupid forum ate my post. 

I meant usually not always. 

How is blowing up a Chantry showing mages should be free? (And you know not the exact opposite.) 

[Ryzaki]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...
My guess is that Anders knew Meredith would respond with the Rite.  I mean, what did he think she would respond with?  Bunnies?

Meredith calling the Rite when the Circle mages had done nothing gives the mage rebellion its justification and galvanizes the mages across Thedas regardless of who Hawke executes, or which side s/he picks.  It's ruthless and awful to do something knowing innocents will die, but I gotta admire Anders' gambit.

That's my whole point. He did know Meredith would respond with the Rite and such was willing to let it happen. He was aware that the gallow mages would be killed (or at least some of them) but it was a willing sacrifice. 

That's my entire point. 

I like the guy but he wasn't exactly doing the gallow mages a giant favor with his Jenga. 

SurelyForth wrote...
@Ryzaki Actually, Anders could be called a martyr at any point in the game, if he dies for his cause. If he had been killed by Alrik during Dissent...martyr. Had participants in the Mage Underground been hunted out and had he died with them...martyr.

Even if Meredith didn't invoke the Right, he'd still be dying for blowing up the Chantry, which was done to advance his cause. Therefore, martry.

Why would he be a martyr for being killed by Alrik during Dissent? The latter I can see. 

Why would blowing up the Chantry advance his cause without Meredith invoking the rite? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 05 mai 2011 - 12:38 .

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

Ryzaki wrote...

How is blowing up a Chantry showing mages should be free? (And you know not the exact opposite.) 

He manifesto-spammed Kirkwall. Anyone who wants to know why he did what he did can read it.

[thebrute7]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

thebrute7 wrote...

I was under the impression he knew what would happen.  If Meredith hadn't called for the Right of Annulment then everything he did would have been for nothing.  He just would have died, the end.

It was a pretty good (bad) gambit come to think of it.  It's no Xanatos Gambit, but still a damn good one. 

Damn my misspellings.  Thank you for correcting me 

Upon replay, I did have to admire the gambit.  I think even my Hawke had a moment of, "DAMN, but that's devious" before she yelled at him for jeopardizing any goodwill toward mages among the general public.  

Christ on a ******, my Hawke's crazy.  She isn't angry at Anders because he blew up the Chantry.  She's angry because she thought he was SLOPPY.

Mine was more along the lines of WTF?  WHY THE HELL DIDN'T YOU TELL ME!  *insert expletives at will* ANDERS.  Now come help me save the mages from this mess you created... and fry Sebastian while you're at it before he brings an army back to kill us.

[ipgd]

bleetman wrote...

I guess I misunderstood the whole "the Champion's name became a rallying cry, a reminder that the mighty Templars could be defied" and all that talk about the circles rising up, then.

That says nothing of Anders's role in it. Cassandra is specifically there about Hawke, so that is what Varric is answering to. There can be multiple symbols of a revolution, you know.

[MelRedux]

Ryzaki wrote...

Mel_Redux wrote...
How is Al-Qaida's attack on the US on 9/11 showing how "evil" Americans are?  But to people who believe in the mission of Al-Qaida, all the pilots, suicide bombers, and now Bin Laden are martyrs. (yes I'm sorry, I went there)

I'm not saying what Anders does makes sense.  I don't agree with what he did.  But to the people who believe that amges should be free, he is most definitely a martyr.

 

How "evil" the americans are? You'll have to explain that to me. 

Well, they for sure didn't bomb us because they were jealous of our cookie recipes.

[Searska]

 Not to put too fine a point on it, but were there REALLY innocents in that chantry when it went down? Because from the cut scene, all I see are a few templars, Elthina, and a Sister. Clergy was guilty by reason of inaction, in my opinion.
And every time I see that word, "innocent," I hear it in Zevran's voice. 

[Ryzaki]

Pseudocognition wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

How is blowing up a Chantry showing mages should be free? (And you know not the exact opposite.) 

He manifesto-spammed Kirkwall. Anyone who wants to know why he did what he did can read it.

And actions speak louder than words how is that scenario anything other than someone attacking a neutral party (heck the one person trying to calm both sides down) iinstead of attacking Templars and the actual aggressors of the mages advancing the reasons why mages should be free? 

Mel_Redux wrote...
Well, they for sure didn't bomb us because they were jealous of our cookie recipes.

Yeah not much of an explanation. 

What crimes of Americans did they want retribution for? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 05 mai 2011 - 12:41 .

[Sable Rhapsody]

Ryzaki wrote...

That's my whole point. He did know Meredith would respond with the Rite and such was willing to let it happen. He was aware that the gallow mages would be killed (or at least some of them) but it was a willing sacrifice. 

That's my entire point. 

I like the guy but he wasn't exactly doing the gallow mages a giant favor with his Jenga. 

Not those specific mages, no.

But he set up a situation in which the other Circles couldn't just look at what was happening in Kirkwall and stand by.  Keep in mind that people elsewhere don't know the details we do.  They didn't know Kirkwall was the Hellmouth/Silent Hill.  They didn't know about the lyrium idol.  Chances are very few people even knew about Anders' possession.  A Circle mage elsewhere would only see the templars massacring mages for something they didn't even do, regardless of which side Hawke picks.

At that point, any claim of the moral high ground from the templars/Chantry has to sound pretty hollow to the mages outside Kirkwall.  Small wonder they all rebelled.

[Dunizel]

Pseudocognition wrote...

He manifesto-spammed Kirkwall. Anyone who wants to know why he did what he did can read it.

As far as the game shows us, he spammed our house only...it would have been nice to find copies posted on the walls, or listen to people talk about it in Act3. Would have made sense. 
I even got the feeling the house was full of stubs of the manifesto...

Modifié par Dunizel, 05 mai 2011 - 12:41 .

[Dreaming-in-Shadow]

bleetman wrote...

If martyrdom was his intent, Hawke stole his thunder anyway. You don't hear about the mages shouting "Anders!" as a battle cry, after all.

I imagine (my) Hawke is thrilled about that. <_<
(Well... the other two are, but my main Hawke... no.)

[thebrute7]

Searska wrote...

 Not to put too fine a point on it, but were there REALLY innocents in that chantry when it went down? Because from the cut scene, all I see are a few templars, Elthina, and a Sister. Clergy was guilty by reason of inaction, in my opinion.
And every time I see that word, "innocent," I hear it in Zevran's voice. 

I am pretty sure we can assume from the size of the bulding there were at least a few innocents in there.  But hey, I personally agree that Elthina had shown herself an enemy of the mages by inaction too.

[Ryzaki]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...
Not those specific mages, no.

But he set up a situation in which the other Circles couldn't just look at what was happening in Kirkwall and stand by.  Keep in mind that people elsewhere don't know the details we do.  They didn't know Kirkwall was the Hellmouth/Silent Hill.  They didn't know about the lyrium idol.  Chances are very few people even knew about Anders' possession.  A Circle mage elsewhere would only see the templars massacring mages for something they didn't even do, regardless of which side Hawke picks.

At that point, any claim of the moral high ground from the templars/Chantry has to sound pretty hollow to the mages outside Kirkwall.  Small wonder they all rebelled.

Yes but this whole debate started from the viewpoint of a gallows mage. I don't see them cheering Anders' name. 

The other mages I can see as grateful. But the gallows mages? Not so much. 

[MelRedux]

Ryzaki wrote...

Mel_Redux wrote...
Well, they for sure didn't bomb us because they were jealous of our cookie recipes.

Yeah not much of an explanation. 

What crimes of Americans did they want retribution for? 

I don't know!  That's the point!!!  What did they acheive by doing that?  WHY did they do that??  But they are still considered martyrs by the people who HAVE THE SAME BELIEFS.

Modifié par Mel_Redux, 05 mai 2011 - 12:43 .

[ipgd]

Ryzaki wrote...

Pseudocognition wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

How is blowing up a Chantry showing mages should be free? (And you know not the exact opposite.) 

He manifesto-spammed Kirkwall. Anyone who wants to know why he did what he did can read it.

And actions speak louder than words how is that scenario anything other than someone attacking a neutral party (heck the one person trying to calm both sides down) iinstead of attacking Templars and the actual aggressors of the mages advancing the reasons why mages should be free?

Sigh. He's giving everyone in Thedas a personal stake in the issue and forcing people to take sides and spark a conflict. He's drawing attention to himself, his cause and the manifesto that details it.

[Ryzaki]

ipgd wrote...
Sigh. He's giving everyone in Thedas a personal stake in the issue and forcing people to take sides and spark a conflict. He's drawing attention to himself, his cause and the manifesto that details it.

And he gives everyone a personal stake without involving Meredith?  

[Dreaming-in-Shadow]

Anders (and Justice) probably would sacrifice the Kirkwall circle for the sake of the cause.
It was lost anyway ("The Circle is lost to us Orsino" the way he said that with such familiarity made me wonder if the two had dealings in the past...)

One circle sacrificed at the order of an insane Knight-Commander for the sake of others...

Modifié par Dreaming-in-Shadow, 05 mai 2011 - 12:46 .