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[ipgd]

Ryzaki wrote...

And he gives everyone a personal stake without involving Meredith?  

What are you talking about

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

Dunizel wrote...

Pseudocognition wrote...

He manifesto-spammed Kirkwall. Anyone who wants to know why he did what he did can read it.

As far as the game shows us, he spammed our house only...it would have been nice to find copies posted on the walls, or listen to people talk about it in Act3. Would have made sense. 
I even got the feeling the house was full of stubs of the manifesto...

The game also says Kirkwall is packed with refugees but we see very few of them. I mean, he's amassing manifestos and leaving them in a conspicuous place (the Champion of Kirkwall's home...and Cass's presence proves that people probably came to investigate it) so I'm pretty sure he meant for someone to see them besides Hawke.

Modifié par Pseudocognition, 05 mai 2011 - 12:47 .

[Sable Rhapsody]

Ryzaki wrote...

Yes but this whole debate started from the viewpoint of a gallows mage. I don't see them cheering Anders' name. 

The other mages I can see as grateful. But the gallows mages? Not so much. 

I think at that point, it depends on who Hawke sides with.  If s/he sides with the mages, I can see the Gallows mages seeing the whole thing as a turning point rather than a straight-out massacre.  Varric does say that many of the mages survive and spread word to the other Circles if you defend them.

[Ryzaki]

Mel_Redux wrote...
I don't know!  That's the point!!!  What did they acheive by doing that?  WHY did they do that??  But they are still considered martyrs by the people who HAVE THE SAME BELIEFS.

The problem with that is (I personally) don't know those beliefs. So I can't answer why their considered martyrs. They might have good reasoning. 

Anders on the other hand has no support group. Has no one backing him. And without using the Jenga as a way to expose how much power the Chantry has over the mages (by letting Meredith use the right on innocent mages) he has no good reasoning for killing the Grand Cleric and why would anyone see him as a martyr? 

[Ryzaki]

ipgd wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

And he gives everyone a personal stake without involving Meredith?  

What are you talking about

*sighs* 

This whole discussion started on the POV of a Gallows mage.  
and how they would feel about Anders' Jenga. 

Then it went into Anders trying to be a martyr without knowing the rite of annullment would be used. Which to me makes no sense. 

The whole basis of his plan relied on Meredith using the rite of annullment. He's a martyr but it works because of Meredith invoking the rite and proving his whole point. Which a gallows mage probably wouldn't appreciate. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 05 mai 2011 - 12:49 .

[SurelyForth]

Actually, I don't think he was sacrificing the Gallows mages. At all.

He knew the Annulment would be called, but his INTENT was for them to fight for their lives, not lay down and take it. He didn't want them to die, which is why he fights to defend him if Hawke sets him free and sides with the templars.

And being a martyr doesn't need a grand gesture, or for anyone to really get what you're doing. If I got shot in the head because I believed and kept insisting that "Ice,Ice Baby" is the greatest song ever written and someone got annoyed enough to threaten me with death, if I refused to stop talking about it and was killed because I refused to stop talking about it, I could legit be called a martyr for my love of "Ice, Ice Baby".

[MelRedux]

Ryzaki wrote...

Mel_Redux wrote...
I don't know!  That's the point!!!  What did they acheive by doing that?  WHY did they do that??  But they are still considered martyrs by the people who HAVE THE SAME BELIEFS.

The problem with that is (I personally) don't know those beliefs. So I can't answer why their considered martyrs. They might have good reasoning. 

Are you serious?  They may have good reasoning to kill over 3000 people by flying a big f*ing plane into a big f*ing building??

I'm sorry, but this is the point of this conversation where I respectfully bow out.

[YamiSnuffles]

Ryzaki wrote...

Yes but this whole debate started from the viewpoint of a gallows mage. I don't see them cheering Anders' name. 

The other mages I can see as grateful. But the gallows mages? Not so much. 

Not quite true. I'm sure many of them were with good reason unhappy with Anders. Not all of them, though. There were probably a few grateful for a chance to finally fight and maybe get freedom at last. Bethany definitely falls in this category. Earlier in the game she admits to Anders that she doesn't think she ever would have the guts to run away from the Circle. However, despite being alright with her lot in the Circle and despite the fact that she never would have fought otherwise, she expresses gratitude for having the chance to fight. She's looking forward to fighting for her freedom and fighting to make sure other mages don't have to go to the Circle.

[Camilladilla]

Ryzaki wrote...

Mel_Redux wrote...
I don't know!  That's the point!!!  What did they acheive by doing that?  WHY did they do that??  But they are still considered martyrs by the people who HAVE THE SAME BELIEFS.

The problem with that is (I personally) don't know those beliefs. So I can't answer why their considered martyrs. They might have good reasoning. 

Anders on the other hand has no support group. Has no one backing him. And without using the Jenga as a way to expose how much power the Chantry has over the mages (by letting Meredith use the right on innocent mages) he has no good reasoning for killing the Grand Cleric and why would anyone see him as a martyr? 

Anders himself may not have a following, but there's an entire sect of mages within the Circles who believe in mage freedom who could easily turn him into a martyr for their cause.

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

He died for taking action to further his cause. He left manifestos to explain his cause and motivations. People will eventually pick up the manifesto and agree with him and his actions or burn it. He's a martyr.

Modifié par Pseudocognition, 05 mai 2011 - 12:50 .

[ipgd]

Ryzaki wrote...

Mel_Redux wrote...
I don't know!  That's the point!!!  What did they acheive by doing that?  WHY did they do that??  But they are still considered martyrs by the people who HAVE THE SAME BELIEFS.

The problem with that is (I personally) don't know those beliefs. So I can't answer why their considered martyrs. They might have good reasoning. 

Anders on the other hand has no support group. Has no one backing him. And without using the Jenga as a way to expose how much power the Chantry has over the mages (by letting Meredith use the right on innocent mages) he has no good reasoning for killing the Grand Cleric and why would anyone see him as a martyr? 

Osama attacked the US because of its involvement with Israel.

You do realize that some people have different thought processes from yours, and that just because you can't imagine yourself doing something doesn't mean no one else will, right? There have been so many instances of martyrdom in the real world. You can become a martyr for practically anything. Anders does have support.

[Ryzaki]

SurelyForth wrote...

Actually, I don't think he was sacrificing the Gallows mages. At all.

He knew the Annulment would be called, but his INTENT was for them to fight for their lives, not lay down and take it. He didn't want them to die, which is why he fights to defend him if Hawke sets him free and sides with the templars.

And being a martyr doesn't need a grand gesture, or for anyone to really get what you're doing. If I got shot in the head because I believed and kept insisting that "Ice,Ice Baby" is the greatest song ever written and someone got annoyed enough to threaten me with death, if I refused to stop talking about it and was killed because I refused to stop talking about it, I could legit be called a martyr for my love of "Ice, Ice Baby".

 
That's far more amusing than it should be. 

I disagree about the sacrificing bit. It may not have been malicious but it was a sacrifice. 

The other just makes him look like a childish idiot. (which is likely). 

[Sable Rhapsody]

Ryzaki wrote...

Anders on the other hand has no support group. Has no one backing him. And without using the Jenga as a way to expose how much power the Chantry has over the mages (by letting Meredith use the right on innocent mages) he has no good reasoning for killing the Grand Cleric and why would anyone see him as a martyr? 

No open support, no.

But remember what Petrice said?  About galvanizing not the fanatics, but the true majority?  The codex entry on Kirkwall's mage underground says that the citizens of Kirkwall will actively oppose their templars to aid escaped mages.  There's a lot of tacit support for the mages--or if not that, by act 3, at least a lot of tacit opposition to Meredith and the templar order. My feeling is that a lot of mages were thinking the same thing as Anders, but no one did anything until he forced everyone's hand.

[Ryzaki]

ipgd wrote...
Osama attacked the US because of its involvement with Israel.

You do realize that some people have different thought processes from yours, and that just because you can't imagine yourself doing something doesn't mean no one else will, right? There have been so many instances of martyrdom in the real world. You can become a martyr for practically anything. Anders does have support.

Ah I see. 

...When did I say it didn't? Heck I was asking someone to clairfy it for me. 

And what support does Anders have? Without Meredith invoking the rite?

Edit: Ah Sable answered that never mind. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 05 mai 2011 - 12:52 .

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

Anders leaves manifestos. They will inspire support, or at least that's partly the point.

Modifié par Pseudocognition, 05 mai 2011 - 12:53 .

[Miri1984]

The Right ETA OK I WAS WRONG ABOUT THAT SORRY  has already been called for. Anders knows this if you have him with you when you talk to Keran. The mages of Kirkwall are already going to be slaughtered, at least that's what Anders thinks. Perhaps he wants it to mean something?

In any case, as I said, even if he thinks the rite will be carried out, he's not willing to lie down and let them be slaughtered. He wants to fight on your side, he wants to defend them.

And someone said before that they thought he wanted to die because it would give justice to those who were killed in the Chantry - I agree with that too. Although there's a definite sense (in the friendship path) that he thinks he'll become a martyr to the cause. His dialogues with Sebastian regarding Andraste indicate that's what he's planning. And he also says something along those lines after the explosion "Kill me but my cause will live on" or some such.

With regards to it being from the point of a gallows mage, from what we see in the courtyard when you hang around and get ambient dialogue, there are mixed feelings. Two of the mages say it's ok (one of them's an elf, who basically says "at least I get fed"). The others all say things along the lines of "Get me out of here" and "this is a prison", and that's not counting the tranquil who are happy in their own little land of lobotomised functionality. So I don't think the blanket reaction of a gallows mage is going to be "Great, the free mage got us all killed".

I rather think they'll be a bit depressed about the fact that the world forced them into a situation where they were going to get killed no matter what they did. And some of them would certainly want to go out fighting and be glad to be given the opportunity.

Modifié par Miri1984, 05 mai 2011 - 12:59 .

[Dunizel]

Ryzaki wrote...
Anders on the other hand has no support group. Has no one backing him. And without using the Jenga as a way to expose how much power the Chantry has over the mages (by letting Meredith use the right on innocent mages) he has no good reasoning for killing the Grand Cleric and why would anyone see him as a martyr? 

He had the mage underground movement, so to speak. Of which we know very little.

Again, we are kinda arguing just because the game doesn't show and explain us enough. 
Anders was no tactical genius, he was driven by impulse and Justice/Vengeance force.
But maybe he had some reasons to do it in that moment, maybe he had information we don't know. 

I would like very much some DLC about the mage undergroung activities. I think it could help a lot to understand so many things we didn't see.

But I agree with Ryzaki...in his romantic idea of the rebellion, he condemned the mages of the Gallows. Maybe in the other Circles thay could put up a fight, maybe they could really rise. But in the Gallows they were so beaten that even Orsino, even siding with mages, just says them to flee and spread the word. 
Anders took the risk of the Annulment and the dead of the mages, because, I would say, it served a greater Justice.

[Ryzaki]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...
I think at that point, it depends on who Hawke sides with.  If s/he sides with the mages, I can see the Gallows mages seeing the whole thing as a turning point rather than a straight-out massacre.  Varric does say that many of the mages survive and spread word to the other Circles if you defend them.

The scenario was asumming Hawke was a gallows mage instead and had escaped from the gallows before Anders' Jenga. (I'm pretty sure he/she wouldn't be the champion becaus ethe second anyone saw them they'd drag them back to the circle). 

Sable Rhapsody wrote...
No open support, no.

But remember what Petrice said?  About galvanizing not the fanatics, but the true majority?  The codex entry on Kirkwall's mage underground says that the citizens of Kirkwall will actively oppose their templars to aid escaped mages.  There's a lot of tacit support for the mages--or if not that, by act 3, at least a lot of tacit opposition to Meredith and the templar order. My feeling is that a lot of mages were thinking the same thing as Anders, but no one did anything until he forced everyone's hand.

 

True. I'm just wondering how much support he'd really gain for destroying the Chantry without Meredith invoking the rite of annullment. And how exactly would that improve his cause. If anything without Meredith's blatant actions would that not destroy support for his cause? 

[Sable Rhapsody]

Miri1984 wrote...

I rather think they'll be a bit depressed about the fact that the world forced them into a situation where they were going to get killed no matter what they did. And some of them would certainly want to go out fighting and be glad to be given the opportunity.

Well, that varies from mage to mage.  Some of them exhibited what can at best be charitably called "learned helplessness."  Mages like Keili from the mage Origin, who really did believe the Chantry's bull.  

My feeling is that most mages are more like Bethany if she's a Circle mage.  They won't cause trouble like Anders or (possibly) apostate Hawke, won't even run away like Malcolm.  But if backed into a corner and given the gauntlet between freedom or death, they'll fight tooth and nail for their right to live, with all the resources they can muster.

[ipgd]

Miri1984 wrote...

The Rite (and it is spelled that way, btw)

It's not. It's Right of Annulment. DG has a post about this that I will find and then later bookmark like I should have ages ago because this comes up 40 times a week.


edit: http://social.biowar...ex/6950449&lf=8

Modifié par ipgd, 05 mai 2011 - 12:56 .

[Melca36]

Ryzaki wrote...

ipgd wrote...
Osama attacked the US because of its involvement with Israel.

You do realize that some people have different thought processes from yours, and that just because you can't imagine yourself doing something doesn't mean no one else will, right? There have been so many instances of martyrdom in the real world. You can become a martyr for practically anything. Anders does have support.

Ah I see. 

...When did I say it didn't? Heck I was asking someone to clairfy it for me. 

And what support does Anders have? Without Meredith invoking the rite?

Edit: Ah Sable answered that never mind. 

Mages have been subjugated for 1000 years. They are kept in Circles and segregated from the rest of humanity because of their abilities yet when somebody needs healing or whatever...THEY ALWAYS GO TO A MAGE!

Anders would have support from those mages are tired of living like they do and being used.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Ryzaki wrote...

The scenario was asumming Hawke was a gallows mage instead and had escaped from the gallows before Anders' Jenga. (I'm pretty sure he/she wouldn't be the champion becaus ethe second anyone saw them they'd drag them back to the circle).

Whoops, sorry.  I completely forgot that's where this discussion got started 

Ryzaki wrote...
 I'm just wondering how much support he'd really gain for destroying the Chantry without Meredith invoking the rite of annullment. And how exactly would that improve his cause. If anything without Meredith's blatant actions would that not destroy support for his cause? 

He probably wouldn't have had a ton of support without Meredith's crazy.  He was banking on her to respond to extremism with extremism, and he generated support among the Circles that way.

TBH, if Meredith hadn't been around in the first place, things in Kirkwall never would've gotten so bad that Anders felt he had to blow up the Chantry.

[Ryzaki]

Miri1984 wrote...

The Rite (and it is spelled that way, btw) has already been called for. Anders knows this if you have him with you when you talk to Keran. The mages of Kirkwall are already going to be slaughtered, at least that's what Anders thinks. Perhaps he wants it to mean something?

In any case, as I said, even if he thinks the rite will be carried out, he's not willing to lie down and let them be slaughtered. He wants to fight on your side, he wants to defend them.

And someone said before that they thought he wanted to die because it would give justice to those who were killed in the Chantry - I agree with that too. Although there's a definite sense (in the friendship path) that he thinks he'll become a martyr to the cause. His dialogues with Sebastian regarding Andraste indicate that's what he's planning. And he also says something along those lines after the explosion "Kill me but my cause will live on" or some such.

With regards to it being from the point of a gallows mage, from what we see in the courtyard when you hang around and get ambient dialogue, there are mixed feelings. Two of the mages say it's ok (one of them's an elf, who basically says "at least I get fed"). The others all say things along the lines of "Get me out of here" and "this is a prison", and that's not counting the tranquil who are happy in their own little land of lobotomised functionality. So I don't think the blanket reaction of a gallows mage is going to be "Great, the free mage got us all killed".

I rather think they'll be a bit depressed about the fact that the world forced them into a situation where they were going to get killed no matter what they did. And some of them would certainly want to go out fighting and be glad to be given the opportunity.

 

True I don't see it being a blanket reaction either way. Absolutes are bad I was always told. Someone would behappy for the chance to take the fight to the templars. 

Edit: I think it's Right though...It's Rite of Tranquility and Right of Anullment. 

...I think. 

...there as like a 20 page discussion on this but I can't remember which version Gaider confirmed!  

My whole issue is that it was a price Anders was willing to pay. It doesn't make it good or bad but its something he had to realize before he put his plan into affect. (Either that or he's a fool and shouldn't have made that decision in the first place). He was also expecting to die. I'd say he probably had a romanticized view on how the fight would go but he did expect there to be battle . And he had to be aware that some of the gallows mages would be killed in the fighting. 

[Camilladilla]

Ryzaki wrote...

True. I'm just wondering how much support he'd really gain for destroying the Chantry without Meredith invoking the rite of annullment. And how exactly would that improve his cause. If anything without Meredith's blatant actions would that not destroy support for his cause? 

So you're of this belief that in destroying the chantry, Anders forced ALL mages and rebel templars to just give up and surrender to the Chantry? It's been a while since I've seen the epilogue, but it does seem like Anders got what he wanted, which was for mages to rise up and fight and even the templars are in strife.

And as I said, even without the Mage Underground in Kirkwall, there's the Libertarians and even the Resolutionists, that group of mages who believe in achieving freedom through violent means.

Modifié par Camilladilla, 05 mai 2011 - 01:01 .

[ipgd]

Ryzaki wrote...
Ah I see. 

...When did I say it didn't? Heck I was asking someone to clairfy it for me. 

And what support does Anders have? Without Meredith invoking the rite?

Edit: Ah Sable answered that never mind. 

Anders exists. He is a person. There are other persons in Thedas. From this we can extrapolate the likely existence of other persons in Thedas who share Anders's viewpoints and may use him as a martyr to further his/their cause.