57020 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

YamiSnuffles wrote..
Not quite true. I'm sure many of them were with good reason unhappy with Anders. Not all of them, though. There were probably a few grateful for a chance to finally fight and maybe get freedom at last. Bethany definitely falls in this category. Earlier in the game she admits to Anders that she doesn't think she ever would have the guts to run away from the Circle. However, despite being alright with her lot in the Circle and despite the fact that she never would have fought otherwise, she expresses gratitude for having the chance to fight. She's looking forward to fighting for her freedom and fighting to make sure other mages don't have to go to the Circle.

True not all of them but I really don't see them thanking him in the templar ending. 

That said...that's not what I got from Bethany at all. She seemed less looking forward to fighting and more simply determined not to let her brother die. (Especially considering what she does in the templar ending). Though it probably varies from person to person (or I missed something). 

[Ryzaki]

Camilladilla wrote...
So you're of this belief that in destroying the chantry, Anders forced ALL mages and rebel templars to just give up and surrender to the Chantry? It's been a while since I've seen the epilogue, but it does seem like Anders got what he wanted, which was for mages to rise up and fight and even the templars are in strife. 

And as I said, even without the Mage Underground in Kirkwall, there's the Libertarians and even the Resolutionists, that group of mages who believe in achieving freedom through violent means.

What? Uh...no. I'm saying without Meredith invoking the rite Anders' destroying the Chantry doesn't really show anything other than apostate mages are dangerous and that some mages don't want to be controlled. 

That is true there will always be extremists. 

ipgd wrote...
Anders exists. He is a person. There are other persons in Thedas. From this we can extrapolate the likely existence of other persons in Thedas who share Anders's viewpoints and may use him as a martyr to further his/their cause.

Also true. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 05 mai 2011 - 01:08 .

[Miri1984]

I've been humbly corrected. It never pays to be absolutely certain of things.
@Ryzaki I think the problem here is just that, absolutes. Your first post said:

Ryzaki wrote...


That would've been an interesting way to play. That said I see the reaction to the Chantry moment being worse. Because then Anders' Jenga just condemned all your friends to death. 

....Which was an absolute statement. The implication of which is that Anders blew up the Chantry fully expecting all the Circle mages to die. He didn't. He wanted them to fight. He wanted ALL mages to fight. He wasn't condemning them to death, he was condemning them to war. 

A war in which many of them would die, true, but a war is not an automatic death sentence.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Have a badass Anders pic I just found.



Seriously, I see stuff like this and all intelligent thought drains from my skull. Terrorist or otherwise, DO WANT :3

[Dreaming-in-Shadow]

Miri1984 wrote...

The Rite (and it is spelled that way, btw)

Bugger.
Er...

EPIC POUTING MANOUVERE!!!

Modifié par Dreaming-in-Shadow, 05 mai 2011 - 01:13 .

[AerdrieDarkmoon]

Needs more Anders art

by mentharvensis
http://mentharvensis.deviantart.com/

[Miri1984]

@Dreaming in Shadow. NO NO, YOU WERE RIGHT, and I was wrong.

.... it feels good to say that sometimes .

[Ryzaki]

Miri1984 wrote...

I've been humbly corrected. It never pays to be absolutely certain of things.
@Ryzaki I think the problem here is just that, absolutes. Your first post said:

Ryzaki wrote...


That would've been an interesting way to play. That said I see the reaction to the Chantry moment being worse. Because then Anders' Jenga just condemned all your friends to death. 

....Which was an absolute statement. The implication of which is that Anders blew up the Chantry fully expecting all the Circle mages to die. He didn't. He wanted them to fight. He wanted ALL mages to fight. He wasn't condemning them to death, he was condemning them to war. 

A war in which many of them would die, true, but a war is not an automatic death sentence.

Maybe that all should've been a some. 

He blew up the Chantry expecting the right of anullment to be called. A right that has been used to purge several circles before that. What did he expect to happen? The mages to magically throw the templars off and flee? He has to be aware people die in war. He had to be aware there were children in the gallows, children who wouldn't be able to fight. 

The only reason the mages manage to have so many lives saved on their side is because of Hawke's legendary mary sue/gary stu powers. (same with the templars side). 

That said it was a absolute statement and I take it back. He just condemned some of the gallow mages to be the first casulties in his war. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 05 mai 2011 - 01:17 .

[berelinde]

This is something I would never say anywhere be here, but Anders is not a terrorist.

A terrorist by definition uses horrific acts in an attempt to sway public opinion toward an otherwise unpopular stance. Anders does not do this. He spends the whole game attempting to persuade people that mages suffer under the templar regime, but the truth is that when he blows up the Chantry, he is not attempting to persuade anyone of anything. If anything, he is attempting to do the reverse: solidify people in their already-held beliefs. He knows that in Kirkwall, templars have become unpopular, mostly because of Meredith's excesses. The Chantry serves as a go between, a compromise, a way to make both sides get along. By removing the sugar coating, he hopes that people will follow their concscience. He does not expect to change anyone's mind.

So much for parallels with real world terrorists.

[YamiSnuffles]

Ryzaki wrote...

True not all of them but I really don't see them thanking him in the templar ending. 

That said...that's not what I got from Bethany at all. She seemed less looking forward to fighting and more simply determined not to let her brother die. (Especially considering what she does in the templar ending). Though it probably varies from person to person (or I missed something). 

When you talk to Bethany in the Gallows, she talks about how she never could understand why Andraste thought mages needed to be locked up. She then says that her powers come from the Maker and she can't believe any of this is his will. But beyond that, she acknowledges that while she always thought it was hard growing up outside the Gallows, "maybe it took being locked in the gallows to understand my place in this world. To see the need to free my fellow mages."

This seems to me to be a definite sign that she doesn't approve of the Circles and wants to do something about it. Not only does she want to be free, but she wants her fellow mages to all be free as well. She seemed a bit afraid of dying (as everyone does, not just your mage companions) but there is definitely hope and determination in her voice.


As for the Templar ending, that is an entirely different situation.. Though, honestly, with that ending I would think the mages would be just as pissed with Meredith, the Templars, and Hawke as they would at Anders, if not more. Hawke is the one who seals their doom. Not only do they have an Anullment being called on them unfairly, but now the Champion has more or less declared that they deserve to die.

Modifié par YamiSnuffles, 05 mai 2011 - 01:22 .

[legbamel]

Miri1984 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Miri1984 wrote...
Except that it didn't. Because the rite of annulment was Meredith's crazy reaction to the Jenga, not something Anders could have predicted. Everyone does a WTF? moment when she says she has to annul the circle. And from what Keras says the rite has already been asked for in any case - it wasn't Anders' action that condemned them all to death, it was Meredith.

And Meredith was only able to do it because Anders' Jenga took out the Grand Cleric. He was banking on her envoking the rite. His entire plan hinged on her anulling the circle to make a point. He offers the gallows' mages friends as a sacrifice for his cause. I doubt most people would appreciate that. No matter how necessary Anders feels it was. 

She didn't have enough power to do so until then so yes a direct result of Anders' Jenga was giving Meredith the ability to act on her desire to anull the circle. Without Anders that wouldn't have happened at that moment.

If Anders hadn't blown up the Chantry there would have been either a rite of annulment or an exalted march any way, both of which aren't likely to keep your friends alive.

Not necessarily. There might have been because the Divine was considering it but it wasn't set in stone. 

That rite of anullment from Meredith isnt going to keep your friends alive either. 

Only thing Anders' Jenga does is get gallow mages killed faster. That's nothing to be grateful for. 

This is how I see it going through his head:

On the friendship path:

Blow up Chantry-Get killed for it-Become Martyr-Galvinise mages into rebellion

On the rival path

Try to stop from blowing up chantry-fail-get killed for it-hope he never has to see the consequences of his actions

I honestly don't think he's thinking "If I blow up the Chantry, Meredith will blame ALL mages and annul the Kirkwall Circle." He's not that smart. REALLY. 

IF he is, on the friendship path I figure he'd be thinking something like this: 

Blow up chantry-get killed for it-Meredith annuls circle- my buddy Hawke defends the mages and whoops her arse.

on the rival path he'd be thinking

WELL ****.

Because we've already established that on the rival path he doesn't WANT to blow up the chantry, that's Justice. And it's quite possible Justice thinks it's ok for Meredith to annul the Kirkwall circle.

Confusing, but the summary of it is, Anders isn't willing to sacrifice the mages of the Kirkwall circle. He desperately wants to defend them if you let him live, so I doubt ANYWHERE in the plan was "all the mages of the Kirkwall circle die". The only person he wants martyred is himself.

I think you've made an important point, here.  All Justice has seen of mages in Kirkwall are the Tranquilized versions and the ones turning into psychotic blood mages after they escape.  It's very possible he dismissed the threat of the annulment as acceptable losses. 

[Sable Rhapsody]

Ryzaki wrote...
He blew up the Chantry expecting the right of anullment to be called. A right that has been used to purge several circles before that. What did he expect to happen? The mages to magically throw the templars off and flee? He has to be aware people die in war. He had to be aware there were children in the gallows, children who wouldn't be able to fight. 

That said it was a absolute statement and I take it back. He just condemned some of the gallow mages to be the first casulties in his war. 

And I think that was a burden Anders was willing to bear, or have Hawke kill him for.  That being said, more and more Circle mages were turning to blood magic or being made Tranquil or making increasingly desperate attempts at escaping by Act 3.  Anders has a point when he calls it a choice between a quick death now and a slow one later.

Meh.  All the dying never fazed my Hawke, little miss crazy Pragmatic Villain Protagonist that she is   She's all like, "This is war, people die, now let's go assassinate us another Knight-Commander."

[thebrute7]

I am going to pull all of you offtopic with... THIS



The dark, I shall do whatever it takes Anders... oh, oh my, excuse me...

[Miri1984]

@Ryzaki Indeed. Although he probably thinks the first casualties were Elthina and the people in the Chantry.

And I do disagree that he expected the Right to be called because of his actions. In at least one scenario he thinks the right has already BEEN called. I'll conceded that he probably thought it could be, but I'm guessing it wasn't what he WANTED. What he wanted was for the blame to be put squarely on his shoulders and none of the other mages'. But that goes into the whole Martyr argument which is a different kettle of fish.

[Ryzaki]

YamiSnuffles wrote...
When you talk to Bethany in the Gallows, she talks about how she never could understand why Andraste thought mages needed to be locked up. She then says that her powers come from the Maker and she can't believe any of this is his will. But beyond that, she acknowledges that while she always thought it was hard growing up outside the Gallows, "maybe it took being locked in the gallows to understand my place in this world. To see the need to free my fellow mages."

This seems to me to be a definite sign that she doesn't approve of the Circles. Not only does she want to be free, but she wants her fellow mages to all be free as well. She seemed a bit afraid of dying (as everyone does, not just your mage companions) but there is definitely hope and determination in her voice.

It's been a while since I've left Bethany in the circle and sided with the mages. But yeah...I can see why she wouldn't approve. 

As for the Templar ending, that is an entirely different situation.. Though, honestly, with that ending I would think the mages would be just as pissed with Meredith, the Templars, and Hawke as they would at Anders, if not more. Hawke is the one who seals their doom. Not only do they have an Anullment being called on them unfairly, but now the Champion has more or less declared that they deserve to die.

See this is why I wanted a "screw you guys I'm outta here." option. So they can shove the blame on someone else for a change. Hawke just wanted to go home and play with Barkspawn. <_< Instead Meredith's threatening to kill him if he doesn't side with her. (why oh why can't I call that bluff?) 

Sable Rhapsody wrote...
And I think that was a burden Anders was willing to bear, or have Hawke kill him for.  That being said, more and more Circle mages were turning to blood magic or being made Tranquil or making increasingly desperate attempts at escaping by Act 3.  Anders has a point when he calls it a choice between a quick death now and a slow one later.

Meh.  All the dying never fazed my Hawke, little miss crazy Pragmatic Villain Protagonist that she is   She's all like, "This is war, people die, now let's go assassinate us another Knight-Commander."

Yeah I think so too. Even if he was a bit deluded about what would actually happen. "I didn't think it would be so bad!" god my Hawke wanted to kick him in the face.  

My death repellant Hawkes are always the cold types. I need to make a Hawke that'll side with Meredith for self-preservation if nothing else. (I know that's alaugh). 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 05 mai 2011 - 01:27 .

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

berelinde wrote...

This is something I would never say anywhere be here, but Anders is not a terrorist

...

So much for parallels with real world terrorists.

Yeeeeeeah... no.

He uses an act of violence to remove compromise and force political action. As in. Start a war. That is terrorism.

Modifié par Pseudocognition, 05 mai 2011 - 01:27 .

[leggywillow]

Don't forget that the Right of Annullment had already been called for, as evidenced by always subtle templars shrieking about it in the Gallows.  I'm going to assume they weren't actually being that open about it and that it was mostly for the player's benefit (good old gameplay/story segregation).  That said, I also think we can assume that Anders would have already gotten wind of it through his mage underground contacts.

[SurelyForth]

thebrute7 wrote...

I am going to pull all of you offtopic with... THIS



The dark, I shall do whatever it takes Anders... oh, oh my, excuse me...

...

*heads to bunk*

[sassperella]

Dunizel wrote...

I saw that Dragon Age Facebook page just asked "Who's your favourite Dragon Age character?"

To be honest you can choose only Varric, Merril, Isabela or Anders.
Fenris has reasons to be broody now.

Varric is winning big time, no surprise...second is Isabela. Confirms my theory that in that drama, whoever has a bit of humor and helps lighten the mood, is welcomed.

Since there is no Zveran, and Varric doesn't need help, I'm going to vote Anders! Anders needs help

Even because, it just crossed my mind that it might have something to do with the DLC...maybe they are trying to get some data. Only 4 choices from DA2 IS strange...

Anders is way behind If it's feedback for dlc looks like Anders will be out. But odd that Fenris isn't there... unless these four are the only voice actors available and they only need three for a party...

[Ryzaki]

Miri1984 wrote...

@Ryzaki Indeed. Although he probably thinks the first casualties were Elthina and the people in the Chantry.

And I do disagree that he expected the Right to be called because of his actions. In at least one scenario he thinks the right has already BEEN called. I'll conceded that he probably thought it could be, but I'm guessing it wasn't what he WANTED. What he wanted was for the blame to be put squarely on his shoulders and none of the other mages'. But that goes into the whole Martyr argument which is a different kettle of fish.

 

Let's just agree to disagree then.  

The more I think of it the more I want to smack Anders for being so naive. 

[Dreaming-in-Shadow]

Miri1984 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...


That would've been an interesting way to play. That said I see the reaction to the Chantry moment being worse. Because then Anders' Jenga just condemned all your friends to death. 

....Which was an absolute statement. The implication of which is that Anders blew up the Chantry fully expecting all the Circle mages to die. He didn't. He wanted them to fight. He wanted ALL mages to fight. He wasn't condemning them to death, he was condemning them to war. 

A war in which many of them would die, true, but a war is not an automatic death sentence.

I wonder if I was a mage, would I be even try to fight for my freedom?

Anyway, I think I know why "Hawke" became the rally-cry.
I wouldn't be grateful to Anders if I were a mage (he doesn't expect it, I think)
Hawke fought to protect them.

[legbamel]

SurelyForth wrote...
Actually, I don't think he was sacrificing the Gallows mages. At all.

He knew the Annulment would be called, but his INTENT was for them to fight for their lives, not lay down and take it. He didn't want them to die, which is why he fights to defend him if Hawke sets him free and sides with the templars.

And being a martyr doesn't need a grand gesture, or for anyone to really get what you're doing. If I got shot in the head because I believed and kept insisting that "Ice,Ice Baby" is the greatest song ever written and someone got annoyed enough to threaten me with death, if I refused to stop talking about it and was killed because I refused to stop talking about it, I could legit be called a martyr for my love of "Ice, Ice Baby".

Worst. Reason. Ever.
Under Pressure was a superior original and that Vanilla Moron is selling shoes at Sears while Bowie is still amazing.  [is shot]  I regret nothing!  [dies]

[MelRedux]

SurelyForth wrote...

thebrute7 wrote...

I am going to pull all of you offtopic with... THIS



The dark, I shall do whatever it takes Anders... oh, oh my, excuse me...

...

*heads to bunk*

*joins*

Oh don't look at me like that!  You'll love it. *eyebrow waggle*

[SurelyForth]

Mel_Redux wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

*heads to bunk*

*joins*

Oh don't look at me like that!  You'll love it. *eyebrow waggle*

Finally!! 

And, in case anyone missed it, 

sexy F!Hawke Andersbutt!

[legbamel]

thebrute7 wrote...
I am going to pull all of you offtopic with... THIS

The dark, I shall do whatever it takes Anders... oh, oh my, excuse me...

Sweet Andraste's flaming aureole!  [fans self]  Is it me or does he have a nosebleed just like mine?!