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The Anders Thread: Flash Fic Contest! Details on Pg. 2274


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#37051
Ryzaki

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RinjiRenee wrote...
I had no problem inferring the situation for my Hawke.  Choosing mages means revolution.  Choosing templars means choosing the status quo.


eh *shrugs* I still would've preferred more information. 

And sadly for my Hawkes the choice is closer to siding with Meredith and hopefully staying out of her rage view or siding against her with overwhelming odds against them. Not a difficult choice for them to make in the view of self preservation. 

The best choice for them would've been get the hell out of dodge but sadly that wasn't available. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 05 mai 2011 - 06:17 .


#37052
upsettingshorts

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Or this, if you were simply romancing Anders above all else:

Posted Image

#37053
SidheKate

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ElleMullineux wrote...

Re Cassandra bolded^^ - I don't remember that bit, another excuse to replay. :o
Meggers - agreed. They thought they came together, but they thought that Hawke basically did it all. Afterall Hawke is the Champion, and Hawke is the one they find standing over the melty lyrium Meredith.


C: "Or that Grey Warden... *Anders*"
V: "Don't remind me, I introduced them..."

Edit for:

Dunizel wrote...

I don't care if Anders doesn't want to
get me involved, I would have liked A LOT to know what this mage
underground activity was about. This game doesn't show us enough, we are
here arguing on assumption and opinions...I would like to know what
renewed Anders' interest in the cause, and why he decided that was the
time for action, Justice/Vengeance impulse aside.


The mage underground fell apart.  Anders tells Hawke that they have all been (1) captured, (2) killed or (3) have turned to blood magic in desperation.  He had no one else to turn to, no way to stop or even slow the tide against the mages, and acted.  I wish there had been more too, mind you, but I felt they were at least clear on what had happened.

Time for more pictures...
This is by howlyn:
Posted Image

Modifié par SidheKate, 05 mai 2011 - 06:22 .


#37054
SmilingDeceit

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Dreaming-in-Shadow wrote...


It's a bit like Hawke again I suppose. How was the Warden to know he/she'd start this?

Over in Amaranthine come act III, two Wardens were facepalming.


Meanwhile in Ferelden when Kirkwall's Chantry goes kaboom, the Warden gets a cold shiver down their back. A strange feeling they can't explain, but somehow it feels like something just happened that leads back to being their fault.

#37055
ipgd

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ElleMullineux wrote...

Edit
And it's my perception that the seekers think that Hawke did it/ masterminded it all, they weren't aware of Ander's involvement.

If you let Anders live, Sebastian would definitely make sure everyone knows what Anders did.

#37056
upsettingshorts

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As if millions of kittens meow'd out in terror and were suddenly silenced.

#37057
Rinji the Bearded

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Upsettingshorts wrote...

Or this, if you were simply romancing Anders above all else:

Posted Image


Aw it's like the Little Terrorist that Could. <3

#37058
Guest_ElleMullineux_*

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ipgd wrote...

ElleMullineux wrote...

Edit
And it's my perception that the seekers think that Hawke did it/ masterminded it all, they weren't aware of Ander's involvement.

If you let Anders live, Sebastian would definitely make sure everyone knows what Anders did.


Ahaaaaaa... good point. I stand corrected.

Makes me wish for a marderknife Sebastian option even more now though. :whistle:

#37059
upsettingshorts

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RinjiRenee wrote...

Aw it's like the Little Terrorist that Could. <3


Anders:  "My cat's breath smells like cat food."  

#37060
Ryzaki

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ipgd wrote...

ElleMullineux wrote...

Edit
And it's my perception that the seekers think that Hawke did it/ masterminded it all, they weren't aware of Ander's involvement.

If you let Anders live, Sebastian would definitely make sure everyone knows what Anders did.


Doesn't that only apply if you recruited Sebastian? 

#37061
Dreaming-in-Shadow

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SmilingDeceit wrote...

Dreaming-in-Shadow wrote...


It's a bit like Hawke again I suppose. How was the Warden to know he/she'd start this?

Over in Amaranthine come act III, two Wardens were facepalming.


Meanwhile in Ferelden when Kirkwall's Chantry goes kaboom, the Warden gets a cold shiver down their back. A strange feeling they can't explain, but somehow it feels like something just happened that leads back to being their fault.


I can imagine a conversation a bit like this:

NPC: So, you remember that mage friend of yours in the Arl's dungeon?
Arion: Jowan?
NPC: That's the name. You said you got into trouble over that?
Arion: I helped him get away from the Chantry, and he turned out to be a blood mage. I swore never to be so stupid again. Your point?
NPC: Anders was one of the wardens you conscripted, right? Well... he just blew up the Chantry.
Arion: ...GODDAMNIT NOT AGAIN!!!

#37062
thebrute7

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Dreaming-in-Shadow wrote...

On a quick unrelated post (yet still on topic according to my signature) DA2 has left me subconsiously spelling justice with a capital "J".


This made me laugh... I have caught myself doing it a couple ties too.

#37063
Silfren

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thebrute7 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Hell that gives the Chantry justification for locking up the mages because look what the free ones do! 


Wow, the threads took a serious turn.  Anyway, while I know you're making a general point--an accurate one, unfortunately-- and not supporting that position, I have to comment on it.

This is precisely what a lot of pro-templar people are saying, when they talk about reaching the end of the game and finding it very difficult to side with the mages.  And yes, I can see the Chantry saying exactly that: "See what that crazy apostate just did?  And you WONDER why we lock them in Circles?  Seriously?!"

There's a major flaw in the cause-and-effect logic going on there, and anyone who'd just sit down and think about it for a moment or two could see the inherent dishonesty.  Anders did what he did because of the Chantry's systematic imprisonment and dehumanization of mages.  He didn't start out life as an apostate--first he was a Circle mage who spent most of his tenure at the Ferelden Circle trying to escape and stay escaped.  He wanted his freedom badly enough that he never, ever gave up, no matter how many times he was dragged back.  It was seeing the Chantry's insistence on the system of the Circle that pushed him into joining with Justice in order to achieve freedom for mages.  Anders' action doesn't justify the Chantry's laws; the Chantry's laws created Anders!


The issue with that of course is the average person in Thedas isn't going to sit and go "oh well Anders blew up the Chantry because he was oppressed." they're going to go "A rogue apostate blew up the Chantry." Mix that in with the populace's normal fear of magic and chances are that's not going to be seen as the chantries fault. 

Also that freedom thing doesn't really hold weight when he roamsn around Kirkwall freely for 7 years. No matter how much he says the templars are hunting him they never actually do anything to give his words weight (other than that isolated event with his recruitment). (which was a weakness in the narrative frankly). 

And I dislike placing blame for someone's actions on something else. No matter how oppressed Anders was at the end of the day it was his choice (unless Justice hijacks him) to blow up the Chantry. No one forced him (unless Justice hijacks him) to do so. 


it's important to realize that while WE can look at the situation from an objective standpoint and see; X caused Y which causes Z which returns to X, the people of Thedas won't.  Some of them will see it as being caused by the oppresion of mages (mage's families, some others),  Most of them are just going to see that : That apostate blew up a center of our faith, let's make sure the mages STAY locked up.

Of course from an objective standpoint there is a clear cause-and-effect line leading up to the explosion,  However, that chain does not take away the responsibility of the individual parties from their choice.  It only provides reason for their choice.  If they choose to do something morally reprehensible, it is still their choice and they will bear the consequences, regardless of the circumstances which only mitigate our decision of what those consequences should be.


That's why I was talking about gamers' reactions more than anything else, rather than the people of Thedas, which is a viewpoint I've tried to discuss/defend elsewhere on a thread with, um...far less...reasonable people.  I should have been clearer in my phrasing, sorry.  It just drives me nuts that gamers, who do have access to more information than your average Thedosian, can't figure out that with the case of the Chantry Circles, the chicken vs. egg question is somewhat easier to trace back to its foundation.  (And before anyone brings up Tevinter, let me say that I believe the problem originally began with the Chantry's solution to the problem of Tevinter).  As Hawke says to Anders, "Forcing mages into servitude isn't the way to prevent the rise of another Imperium."  If anything, that "solution" was more likely to actually provoke mages into creating another one.   Creating the Circles and requiring all mages to be jerked away from their families, denied the right to make families, and treating them like a bomb looking for a place to explode, was guaranteed to lead to someone like Anders and his magical exploding...thing.  It was only a question of when some random mage was going to finally snap.

#37064
Patriciachr34

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[quote]Dreaming-in-Shadow wrote...

[quote]RinjiRenee wrote...

[quote]Dreaming-in-Shadow wrote...

(snip)
[/quote]

(snip)
playthrough I got the "Wardens = Family" ending. :(
*What the hell happened there?
And damnit, who took his cat!?
[/quote]

[quote]

I blame Stroud!

Modifié par Patriciachr34, 05 mai 2011 - 06:29 .


#37065
dpMeggers

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Upsettingshorts wrote...

As if millions of kittens meow'd out in terror and were suddenly silenced.

I'm not sure if I should applaud the reference or shudder at the thought of an Alderaan populated by kittens and only kittens being Death Star'd.

#37066
ipgd

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Ryzaki wrote...

ipgd wrote...

ElleMullineux wrote...

Edit
And it's my perception that the seekers think that Hawke did it/ masterminded it all, they weren't aware of Ander's involvement.

If you let Anders live, Sebastian would definitely make sure everyone knows what Anders did.


Doesn't that only apply if you recruited Sebastian? 

No? It's not out of the question that he'd figure out what happened without Hawke.

#37067
Dreaming-in-Shadow

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Patriciachr34 wrote...

I blame Stroud!


Bah. Stroud.

Anders mentioned Wardens, and I got all excited.
Who would be the cameo?
Sigrun? Oghren? Nate? 

And then I actually shouted at the PC "Who the hell are you!?

#37068
Rinji the Bearded

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Ryzaki wrote...

ipgd wrote...

ElleMullineux wrote...

Edit
And it's my perception that the seekers think that Hawke did it/ masterminded it all, they weren't aware of Ander's involvement.

If you let Anders live, Sebastian would definitely make sure everyone knows what Anders did.


Doesn't that only apply if you recruited Sebastian? 


Not recruiting him doesn't mean he doesn't exist.  He just isn't with Hawke at the time when the Chantry explodes.  I'm sure he'd find whoever was responsible for Elthina's death and hunt them down regardless.

#37069
upsettingshorts

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Stroud is awesome though. His mustache would impress even the great Ron Swanson.

#37070
thebrute7

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ipgd wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

ipgd wrote...

ElleMullineux wrote...

Edit
And it's my perception that the seekers think that Hawke did it/ masterminded it all, they weren't aware of Ander's involvement.

If you let Anders live, Sebastian would definitely make sure everyone knows what Anders did.


Doesn't that only apply if you recruited Sebastian? 

No? It's not out of the question that he'd figure out what happened without Hawke.


Of course he migth have died.  It's highly likely he still would be in the chantry when the explosion went off.

"If it was me in the chantry would you be hesitating?" Posted Image Is that a question?  Are you putting yourself on the same level as the man I am in love with?  You are an idiot.
 

#37071
Silfren

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SmilingDeceit wrote...

Dreaming-in-Shadow wrote...


It's a bit like Hawke again I suppose. How was the Warden to know he/she'd start this?

Over in Amaranthine come act III, two Wardens were facepalming.


Meanwhile in Ferelden when Kirkwall's Chantry goes kaboom, the Warden gets a cold shiver down their back. A strange feeling they can't explain, but somehow it feels like something just happened that leads back to being their fault.


I'll tell you whose fault it is!  The bastards that made Anders give his cat away!  This is why people need pets, damnit!

#37072
SmilingDeceit

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Dreaming-in-Shadow wrote...

I can imagine a conversation a bit like this:

NPC: So, you remember that mage friend of yours in the Arl's dungeon?
Arion: Jowan?
NPC: That's the name. You said you got into trouble over that?
Arion: I helped him get away from the Chantry, and he turned out to be a blood mage. I swore never to be so stupid again. Your point?
NPC: Anders was one of the wardens you conscripted, right? Well... he just blew up the Chantry.
Arion: ...GODDAMNIT NOT AGAIN!!!


Which leads to this if Anders ever runs into the WC again..

Posted Image

Modifié par SmilingDeceit, 05 mai 2011 - 06:35 .


#37073
Patriciachr34

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[quote]dpMeggers wrote...

[quote]Patriciachr34 wrote...

I know there is a case to be made for Anders the terrorist, but it is my impression that Anders was not trying to terrorize and intimidiate a population.  Nor was he trying to destroy and rebuild all of the moires of a society.  He was trying to escalate a conflict by removing the one thing that was keeping "the lid on the pot", that being Althena and the Chantry (the Chantry being a symbol of opression for mages).  In essence, he was trying bring about change for one group of people within a society and not destroy that society as a whole.  I beleive that this distinction is important here. [/quote]

[/quote]

From the Oxford English Dictionary:
terrorism: the unofficial or unauthorized use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims.

The Chantry explosion was unofficial/unauthorized insofar as no governing body gave the command for it to happen. Violence was most certainly used - the building was obliterated. The intent of the action was to kickstart a war between the Chantry in the form of templars and mages so that the mages finally fight for their rights, which can be deemed a political aim, given that the Chantry does sort of govern most of southern Thedas from the background.

From the Oxford English Dictionary: 
terrorist: a person who uses terrorism in the pursuit of political aims.

Anders certainly used terrorism (see above) in the pursuit of political aims - mage freedom. I would say that what he did certainly is a textbook case of an act of terrorism. Thus Anders is a terrorist.
[/quote]

From the Merriam Webster Dictionary
Definition of REVOLUTION1 a [/i] (1)[/i] : the action by a celestial body of going round in an orbit or elliptical course; also : apparent movement of such a body round the earth (2)[/i] : the time taken by a celestial body to make a complete round in its orbit (3)[/i] : the rotation of a celestial body on its axis b[/i] : completion of a course (as of years); also : the period made by the regular succession of a measure of time or by a succession of similar events c [/i] (1)[/i] :
a progressive motion of a body around an axis so that any line of the
body parallel to the axis returns to its initial position while
remaining parallel to the axis in transit and usually at a constant
distance from it (2)[/i] : motion of any figure about a center or axis <revolution of a right triangle about one of its legs generates a cone> (3)[/i] : rotation 1b 2 a[/i] : a sudden, radical, or complete change b[/i] : a fundamental change in political organization; especially : the overthrow or renunciation of one government or ruler and the substitution of another by the governed c[/i] : activity or movement designed to effect fundamental changes in the socioeconomic situation d[/i] : a fundamental change in the way of thinking about or visualizing something : a change of paradigm <the Copernican revolution>

One man's terroist is another man's revolutionary.  This makes us both correct.

#37074
Ryzaki

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ipgd wrote...
No? It's not out of the question that he'd figure out what happened without Hawke.


True. 

But we all know what happens when you play telephone. :whistle:  

Edit: The last bit is jest

Modifié par Ryzaki, 05 mai 2011 - 06:39 .


#37075
ipgd

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thebrute7 wrote...

Of course he migth have died.  It's highly likely he still would be in the chantry when the explosion went off.

"If it was me in the chantry would you be hesitating?" Posted Image Is that a question?  Are you putting yourself on the same level as the man I am in love with?  You are an idiot.
 

Hepler outright said that "Sebastian's story wasn't done" and they made certain you had no way to kill him, so no, I doubt he was actually in the Chantry at that time. They seem to have plans for him.

Modifié par ipgd, 05 mai 2011 - 06:38 .