57020 réponses à ce sujet

[SmilingDeceit]

One of the things I really liked about DAO was if you were a Blood Mage during the mage tower quest, Wynne calls you out on it.

The fact that doesn't happen in DA2 really irks me. My mages now turn up being Spirit Healers now, which I never did when playing a mage in DAO. *grumble*

Reposting this for great top-ness!

Modifié par SmilingDeceit, 05 mai 2011 - 07:01 .

[CatOfEvilGenius]

Heidenreich wrote...

Revolutionaries and terrorists are effectively the exact same thing. The only difference is, in the view of history. As history will tell it, a terrorist is someone who lost the war, where a revolutionary won. Of course, it also depends upon who's telling the history ;p

A very clear example of this is the founding fathers of the U.S. Had the Revolutionaries lost the war they started, then history would remember it as being nothing more then a terrorist movement, and the US would still be called the Colonies ;p

While there is truth to that, there is also a huge difference between blowing up a military convoy and bombing a restaurant full of civilians.  Choice of targets separates terrorists from revolutionaries for me.  I am aware there are cases that are not so clear cut, instances of "collateral damage", but non-terrorists at least try to limit non-combatant causalties, while terrorists deliberately target civies.


Since that train of thought depresses me, here is some full-on, totally nekkid Andersbutt, by regeneer
See, BioWare?  This is what should have been in the game.  The guys get Liara butt.  Let's have something for us too.







.
@SmilingDeceit - I approve of your repost!

Modifié par CatOfEvilGenius, 05 mai 2011 - 07:04 .

[Silfren]

Ryzaki wrote...

Silfren wrote...
Oh, also, on this point, I blame that purely on game mechanics.  Can't figure out how the Devs could manage to overlook the rather bizarrely illogical point of, since Kirkwall is this hyper-super-ultra-anti-mage place with a bat-crazy Knight-Commander and a far more oppressive Circle than elsewhere, having the Templars, especially Cullen, of all people, happily disregard the fact that several known apostates are being allowed to romp through the city completely unmolested, and well before Hawke has the flimsy plot-armour of being the Champion.  It's one thing for Anders to somehow live freely in Darktown, since we do at least hear and see indicators that the refugees are prepared to die protecting him.  But for him to stroll into Hightown, or the bloody Gallows, and all Cullen does is give him the stink-eye?!  

It's worse. You can march up to Cullen with Anders in Hawke's party and tell Cullen Anders' is plotting against the Chantry. And Cullen does not immediately arrest Anders. 

Yeah, I've heard you can do that.  I keep trying to find a youtube of that scene. 

[Dreaming-in-Shadow]

ipgd wrote...

Silfren wrote...

And for me that just randomly conjured up the twisted notion that Sebastian is the son that Wynne was forced to give up.

MALCOLM IS WYNNE'S SON


I BELIEEEEEVE

Malcolm Hawke is Wynne's child...

AND SEBASTIAN IS MALCOLM'S LONG LOST SON!!!
Which is why he won't sleep with fem!Hawke (other than the fact that he's embarrassed by the fact that he has no bollocks.)

[upsettingshorts]

CatOfEvilGenius wrote...

While there is truth to that, there is also a huge difference between blowing up a military convoy and bombing a restaurant full of civilians.  Choice of targets separates terrorists from revolutionaries for me.  I am aware there are cases that are not so clear cut, instances of "collateral damage", but non-terrorists at least try to limit non-combatant causalties, while terrorists deliberately target civies.

They often decide that civilians are combatants, or complicit enough to be considered so.  People in this thread and others who have argued that the Chantry was not a soft target are making the same argument.

As did Timothy McVeigh:  "Think about the people as if they were storm troopers in Star Wars. They may be individually innocent, but they are guilty because they work for the Evil Empire."

[dpMeggers]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Heidenreich wrote...

Revolutionaries and terrorists are effectively the exact same thing. The only difference is, in the view of history.

Not necessarily. 

You can be a revolutionary without being a terrorist just as you can be a terrorist without being a revolutionary.

But it is often the case that the same individual or group qualifies for both labels, and then history does tend to focus on one label over the other. 

I agree. The terms revolutionary and terrorist aren't mutually exclusive, but they aren't always the same except for perspective either.

Ghandi was a revolutionary. It was a peaceful revolution, sure, but he was attempting to overthrow one government and replace it with another. I have never seen anything which indicates that Ghandi was a terrorist.

Modifié par dpMeggers, 05 mai 2011 - 07:11 .

[dpMeggers]

Dreaming-in-Shadow wrote...

ipgd wrote...

Silfren wrote...

And for me that just randomly conjured up the twisted notion that Sebastian is the son that Wynne was forced to give up.

MALCOLM IS WYNNE'S SON


I BELIEEEEEVE

Malcolm Hawke is Wynne's child...

AND SEBASTIAN IS MALCOLM'S LONG LOST SON!!!
Which is why he won't sleep with fem!Hawke (other than the fact that he's embarrassed by the fact that he has no bollocks.)

If Sebastian isn't a Vael, doesn't that sort of defeat the whole purpose of his character? Or did Mommy Vael like to slum it with mercenaries sometimes and they sent him to the chantry because he only carried the Vael name and not the bloodline?

[ipgd]

Just because the label "terrorism" is associated with people generally considered "evil" doesn't mean it doesn't also apply. Terrorism is always justifiable by somebody.

dpMeggers wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Heidenreich wrote...

Revolutionaries and terrorists are effectively the exact same thing. The only difference is, in the view of history.

Not necessarily. 

You can be a revolutionary without being a terrorist just as you can be a terrorist without being a revolutionary.

But it is often the case that the same individual or group qualifies for both labels, and then history does tend to focus on one label over the other. 

The terms revolutionary and terrorist aren't mutually exclusive, but they aren't always the same except for perspective either.

Ghandi was a revolutionary. It was a peaceful revolution, sure, but he was attempting to overthrow one government and replace it with another. I have never seen anything which indicates that Ghandi was a terrorist.

Didn't he just say that?

Modifié par ipgd, 05 mai 2011 - 07:11 .

[SmilingDeceit]

Dreaming-in-Shadow wrote...

ipgd wrote...

MALCOLM IS WYNNE'S SON


I BELIEEEEEVE

Malcolm Hawke is Wynne's child...

AND SEBASTIAN IS MALCOLM'S LONG LOST SON!!!
Which is why he won't sleep with fem!Hawke (other than the fact that he's embarrassed by the fact that he has no bollocks.)

Am I the only one who really hopes Malcolm isn't Wynne's child? For no other reason than that I really hate the old bat and don't want my Hawke related to her.

[Dreaming-in-Shadow]

dpMeggers wrote...

I have never seen anything which indicates that Ghandi was a terrorist.

Buffy the Vampire Slayer
Season 3
Episode One: Anne

"Hey, Ken. Wanna see my impresion of Ghandi?"

[dpMeggers]

ipgd wrote...
Didn't he just say that?

You can take that as either me misquoting or forgetting to say that I agree. Either way, I'll go edit it now.

Modifié par dpMeggers, 05 mai 2011 - 07:12 .

[Dreaming-in-Shadow]

dpMeggers wrote...

Dreaming-in-Shadow wrote...

Malcolm Hawke is Wynne's child...

AND SEBASTIAN IS MALCOLM'S LONG LOST SON!!!
Which is why he won't sleep with fem!Hawke (other than the fact that he's embarrassed by the fact that he has no bollocks.)

If Sebastian isn't a Vael, doesn't that sort of defeat the whole purpose of his character? Or did Mommy Vael like to slum it with mercenaries sometimes and they sent him to the chantry because he only carried the Vael name and not the bloodline?

Exactly.
That, or Malcolm was actually royalty, and was on the run because of his being a mage.

Modifié par Dreaming-in-Shadow, 05 mai 2011 - 07:15 .

[dpMeggers]

Dreaming-in-Shadow wrote...

dpMeggers wrote...

I have never seen anything which indicates that Ghandi was a terrorist.

Buffy the Vampire Slayer
Season 3
Episode One: Anne

"Hey, Ken. Wanna see my impresion of Ghandi?"

I've never watched more than 5 minutes of Buffy. So that would be why.

And regarding Seb: exactly what? He's not a real Vael? If that's known it might explain why he's been kicking around Kirkwall for 7 years.

Modifié par dpMeggers, 05 mai 2011 - 07:15 .

[Ryzaki]

Silfren wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Silfren wrote...
Oh, also, on this point, I blame that purely on game mechanics.  Can't figure out how the Devs could manage to overlook the rather bizarrely illogical point of, since Kirkwall is this hyper-super-ultra-anti-mage place with a bat-crazy Knight-Commander and a far more oppressive Circle than elsewhere, having the Templars, especially Cullen, of all people, happily disregard the fact that several known apostates are being allowed to romp through the city completely unmolested, and well before Hawke has the flimsy plot-armour of being the Champion.  It's one thing for Anders to somehow live freely in Darktown, since we do at least hear and see indicators that the refugees are prepared to die protecting him.  But for him to stroll into Hightown, or the bloody Gallows, and all Cullen does is give him the stink-eye?!  

It's worse. You can march up to Cullen with Anders in Hawke's party and tell Cullen Anders' is plotting against the Chantry. And Cullen does not immediately arrest Anders. 

Yeah, I've heard you can do that.  I keep trying to find a youtube of that scene. 

Here

Modifié par Ryzaki, 05 mai 2011 - 07:15 .

[Sable Rhapsody]

Ryzaki wrote...

Yeah I'm starting to see why people can't play mages anymore. There's too much "...huh?" going on during a mage playthrough. 

It's harder for me to ignore bloodmagic. I just can't use it anymore (does help that the spec is pretty lackluster). Hawke constantly berating people for using bloodmagic makes him look like a world class hypocrite. 

Personally, I still love shooting lightning at fools 

As for blood magic, I never berated anyone for it with my blood mage.  I was very careful during my PT to select dialogue options that had little if anything to do with blood magic when it came up.  My Hawke went "meh" at blood mages unless they were actively causing problems for her; let Gascard go (the first time), let Grace go, etc.  My Hawke had no problem with blood magic; what she had a problem with were people using it stupidly, then getting themselves and a lot of people killed.  (Which tends to happen a lot in Kirkwall.)  

[Dreaming-in-Shadow]

dpMeggers wrote...

Dreaming-in-Shadow wrote...

dpMeggers wrote...

I have never seen anything which indicates that Ghandi was a terrorist.

Buffy the Vampire Slayer
Season 3
Episode One: Anne

"Hey, Ken. Wanna see my impresion of Ghandi?"

I've never watched more than 5 minutes of Buffy. So that would be why.

And regarding Seb: exactly what? He's not a real Vael? If that's known it might explain why he's been kicking around Kirkwall for 7 years.

Fair enough

Either that, or Malcolm was royalty on the run (being a mage and all).
The crackfics that could be born from this...

(Also, why is Sebastian so obsessed with keeping his family line going? He's sworn the oath of chastity, he can't have kids, and he's the last of his line... Seems like a waste of time.)

[Silfren]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

CatOfEvilGenius wrote...

While there is truth to that, there is also a huge difference between blowing up a military convoy and bombing a restaurant full of civilians.  Choice of targets separates terrorists from revolutionaries for me.  I am aware there are cases that are not so clear cut, instances of "collateral damage", but non-terrorists at least try to limit non-combatant causalties, while terrorists deliberately target civies.

They often decide that civilians are combatants, or complicit enough to be considered so.  People in this thread and others who have argued that the Chantry was not a soft target are making the same argument.

As did Timothy McVeigh:  "Think about the people as if they were storm troopers in Star Wars. They may be individually innocent, but they are guilty because they work for the Evil Empire."

Odds are good this won't mean a damn thing to you, but a loooong time ago, a philosopher-by-trade friend of mine from LiveJournal, whose IQ is through the roof and who has been known to write brief, single-paragraph posts that take me hours upon hours to parse, tends to write at considerable length about the history of socio-political dynamics and class warfare and capitalism and a million other things and then links them altogether to explain the current problem of Socio-Corporate-Imperialism and how it all began x thousand years ago, drew up this lengthy post that she summed up with the phrase "Don't be a janitor on the Death Star."  Congrats on putting me in mind of something I haven't thought about in years. 

[Ryzaki]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...
Personally, I still love shooting lightning at fools 

As for blood magic, I never berated anyone for it with my blood mage.  I was very careful during my PT to select dialogue options that had little if anything to do with blood magic when it came up.  My Hawke went "meh" at blood mages unless they were actively causing problems for her; let Gascard go (the first time), let Grace go, etc.  My Hawke had no problem with blood magic; what she had a problem with were people using it stupidly, then getting themselves and a lot of people killed.  (Which tends to happen a lot in Kirkwall.)  

I'm more on the Aveline side. My 2HD has "DON'T" carved into it.  

My feeling comes from some of the auto dialogue. "Bloodmagic!" sounds like Hawke's disgusted/dislikes it. Especially when talking with Idunna. But that's probably just me. I do have a bloodmage Hawke who has much the same issue with bloodmagic yours does. Too much power with too much stupidity. 
 

[upsettingshorts]

Silfren wrote...

Odds are good this won't mean a damn thing to you

Why not?  I liked it, heh.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Ryzaki wrote...

I'm more on the Aveline side. My 2HD has "DON'T" carved into it.  

My feeling comes from some of the auto dialogue. "Bloodmagic!" sounds like Hawke's disgusted/dislikes it. Especially when talking with Idunna. But that's probably just me. I do have a bloodmage Hawke who has much the same issue with bloodmagic yours does. Too much power with too much stupidity. 
 

That's true, there's not much to be done about the auto dialogue.  90% of the time it works for Hawke, the remaining 10% of the time I just gloss over it.

My blood mage Hawke, at least in my head canon, turned to blood magic after Malcolm's death as a practical point.  She was only 18 and needed to protect her family.  At any rate, the way I play her, she has no inherent problem with blood magic, but she DOES understand that it's dangerous, and people who use it willy-nilly only cause trouble.  Like what the Arishok says about children with swords.

[dpMeggers]

Silfren wrote...

"Don't be a janitor on the Death Star."  

There's a scene in the original Clerks movie along those lines. The characters Randall and Dante are discussing the fate of the independent contractors who must have been hired to complete the second Death Star in time for it to be "fully operational" and how it sucks for them to have been blown to hell in a war they had nothing to do with. A customer interrupts them and indicates that RL contractors chose who they work for based on personal politics, so the contractors on the Death Star probably did the same.

Ok so that's really OT but to bring it back to Anders, this probably isn't the case in the Chantry? Nobody went to the Death Star to pray. People probably went to the Chantry to pray (and stare at the MASSIVE gold statues. Seriously. Melt those down and you could probably feed all of Darktown for a year.)

For the interested: the scene is http://www.youtube.c...6lzEhoXads]here[/url].

Modifié par dpMeggers, 05 mai 2011 - 07:34 .

[Ashwraith]

Ryzaki wrote...

Sable Rhapsody wrote...
Personally, I still love shooting lightning at fools 

I'm more on the Aveline side. My 2HD has "DON'T" carved into it. 

...
I miss Lamppost in Winter. ;3;

dpMeggers wrote...

People probably went to the Chantry to
pray (and stare at the MASSIVE gold statues. Seriously. Melt those down
and you could probably feed all of Darktown for a year.)

Well, yeah, until you realize that they're actually just brass, or only covered in gold leaf.
Alas.
On the other hand, there was that guy in Sebastian's quest who was melting down all the gold in his mansion. Why were we not given the option to snag that on the way out?

Modifié par Ashwraith, 05 mai 2011 - 07:38 .

[thebrute7]

dpMeggers wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Silfren wrote...

Odds are good this won't mean a damn thing to you

Why not?  I liked it, heh.

There's a scene in the original Clerks movie along those lines. The characters Randall and Dante are discussing the fate of the independent contractors who must have been hired to complete the second Death Star in time for it to be "fully operational" and how it sucks for them to have been blown to hell in a war they had nothing to do with. A customer interrupts them and indicates that RL contractors chose who they work for based on personal politics, so the contractors on the Death Star probably did the same.

Ok so that's really OT but to bring it back to Anders, this probably isn't the case in the Chantry? Nobody went to the Death Star to pray. People probably went to the Chantry to pray (and stare at the MASSIVE gold statues. Seriously. Melt those down and you could probably feed all of Darktown for a year.)

For the interested: the scene is http://www.youtube.c...6lzEhoXads]here[/url].

Well honestly, I don't think many, if any, people go to the chantry to pray at night.  But that isn't really the point.

Am I the only one who was creeped out by the freaking huge Andraste statue?  I mean damn...

[Sable Rhapsody]

dpMeggers wrote...

Ok so that's really OT but to bring it back to Anders, this probably isn't the case in the Chantry? Nobody went to the Death Star to pray. People probably went to the Chantry to pray (and stare at the MASSIVE gold statues. Seriously. Melt those down and you could probably feed all of Darktown for a year.)

Probably not.

Really, it all boils to whether you're ok with premeditated killing of innocent people for a cause.  It happens all the time in war; every government does it, and it's apparently ok when accompanied with a legal stamp, but not ok when it's a guy acting on his beliefs independent of legal sanction.  Anders isn't specifically out to kill innocent people any more than bombing runs are, but it happens as an ugly fact.  

And to bring it back to Thedas and out of real life, it's only a relatively recent phenomenon that has governments IRL caring at all about whether their actions cause collateral damage (I hate that phrase, but it works).  In Thedas?  They don't seem to give a damn.  Even Elthina seems resigned to the possibility than an Exalted March will kill innocents, and the Divine doesn't appear perturbed by that.

[CatOfEvilGenius]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

CatOfEvilGenius wrote...

While there is truth to that, there is also a huge difference between blowing up a military convoy and bombing a restaurant full of civilians.  Choice of targets separates terrorists from revolutionaries for me.  I am aware there are cases that are not so clear cut, instances of "collateral damage", but non-terrorists at least try to limit non-combatant causalties, while terrorists deliberately target civies.

They often decide that civilians are combatants, or complicit enough to be considered so.  People in this thread and others who have argued that the Chantry was not a soft target are making the same argument.

As did Timothy McVeigh:  "Think about the people as if they were storm troopers in Star Wars. They may be individually innocent, but they are guilty because they work for the Evil Empire."

While I understand that terrorists may indeed see restaurant diners, and their kids, and their grandmas, as "combatants" because they support a certain idealogy, or belong to a certain nationality, decent people don't think that way.  So I think my point is still valid, even if terrorists think otherwise.

In DA2 terms, terrorist thinking would make anyone who is Andrastian, or not actively helping the mages, a legitimate target.

I understand those who argue the Chantry was not a soft target because Elthina commanded the templars.  Nominally.  In practice, she utterly failed at commanding anything.  That's why I've said people who want to target Elthina for failing to stop Meredith should have targeted Elthina, rather than blown up the Chantry.  The people praying in the Chantry were non-combatants, bystanders, civilians, innocent targets.  That's even if they thought Circles are the best idea ever and all mages are bad.

If someone thinks the police are corrupt and unjust, and they blame the mayor, and then blow up city government offices, with all the clerks and secretaries and janitors and citizens there on business, do we label them terrorist or revolutionary?  For the sake of argument, assume the police and mayor were unjust, evil meanies who kicked puppies and needed killing.  Who would justify killing the janitor because he worked for the mayor?  What if he had voted for the mayor?  Is he now "complicit" and a hard target?