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[YamiSnuffles]

Threeparts wrote...



obb

Oh man, Dr. Anders. Better yet, Dr. Anders with glasses.

I would buy all of those. They'd be hilarious. I am definitely, 100% behing Izzy dressed as Jack Sparrow.

[highcastle]

Regarding why Anders lies to Hawke with the potion, at least in part it's about trying to set up Hawke as the on to carry on his cause...at least in the friendmance (I still can't get very far as a rival, sorry). His whole not wanting Hawke to either stop him or help him speaks very highly to the conflict going on inside him. He knows what he's doing is wrong in some part, that he'll have to face the consequences of his actions, and he definitely doesn't want to see Hawke die.

But, and this is totally pet theory time, I could also see him as having to foresight to realize his cause is going to need a leader after what he assumes will be his death. In the friendmance, Hawke has been supporting him, has been pro-mage and fighting for mages. I can see Anders also wanting to leave Hawke out of the Chantry's destruction so that he can take over fighting the good fight.

[YamiSnuffles]

highcastle wrote...

Regarding why Anders lies to Hawke with the potion, at least in part it's about trying to set up Hawke as the on to carry on his cause...at least in the friendmance (I still can't get very far as a rival, sorry). His whole not wanting Hawke to either stop him or help him speaks very highly to the conflict going on inside him. He knows what he's doing is wrong in some part, that he'll have to face the consequences of his actions, and he definitely doesn't want to see Hawke die.

But, and this is totally pet theory time, I could also see him as having to foresight to realize his cause is going to need a leader after what he assumes will be his death. In the friendmance, Hawke has been supporting him, has been pro-mage and fighting for mages. I can see Anders also wanting to leave Hawke out of the Chantry's destruction so that he can take over fighting the good fight.

I had no problem with why he lied- I understand and accept his explanation about Hawke either stopping him or helping him both being bad. My problem was just with the particular lie he used. As I said earlier, it felt out of place for me, since the codex had just confirmed that he was back to focusing on the cause instead of on things with Justice. As others have said, it also seems a little cruel to get a romanced Hawke's hopes up that way and it seems like the sort of thing that would make Hawke question him even more.

As to him hoping Hawke will be a leader for the mages in the friendmance... I get where you're coming from but I can't really see it as you've presented it. I can understand Hawke not being blamed for the Chantry business leaves Hawke in a better position to lead. However, if he really wanted Hawke to continue on with what he was doing, shouldn't he have involved Hawke more? He purposefully keeps Hawke out of the loop when it comes to the mage underground. This leaves Hawke a bit ill equipped to continue what Anders was doing because he/she doesn't really know much explicitly about what Anders was doing.

[Ninche]

Threeparts wrote...

sassperella wrote...

True... they said the poll was for feedback so a couple of people assumed it could be dlc. I'm not expecting any Anders specific dlc myself but it would be a shame if they did any pre chantry dlc and he wasn't included.
It was odd that they only picked those four to put in the poll, and I was wondering if they were the only four voice actors available and they were looking into the highest three rated for a three man dlc party... However looking at the names that would mean both female LIs would be there and none of the male ones which would probably get some complaints.
It would be nice to get all our companions in pre chantry dlc but it wouldn't be cost effective, I can just see them having a party's worth and with Anders being so unpopular he may get missed out.

I'm not sure about that part. I'm definitely not a game designer, but the characters are already there, the ambient dialogue is already recorded, they already have abilities and talents in the game... if the DLC isn't focused on that particular character, I'd don't know if it would really be a lot of effort to make the character accessible to party selection. The character could tag along without interjecting any comments if they can't get new dialogue for it.
I could easily be talking out of my arse, I know, but I can totally picture him being the third fourth wheel like Leliana, Oghren, Sten, etc., was in Return to Ostagar.

I think Anders is way too essential for the story to be completely left out, and you're right, the character model and ambient dialogue is already there - there's no reason not to re-use it, even if people hate Anders so much it doesn't make sense to remove him from party selection. Also, a DLC would be a good opportunity for the wirters to mess with people's feelings even more by presenting new facts that might make them re-think their judgmenet of Anders at the end of the game (It would awesome if they could come up with a massive twist to make even the most aggresive idiots think about stabbing anders in the back, but maybe they don't want to undo all the hate if that's what they were aiming for) I actually remain cautiously optimistic - I know Davind Gaider will do what's good for the story as opposed to what the masses would prefer, hopefully he won't be stopped by producers or w/e. 

and @ElleMullineux: I'd buy an Anders DLC 3 times too! Maybe we should make a list of everyone who would buy it 3 times or pay 3 times more for it and send it to DG with some kind of proof of intent :happy:

[highcastle]

YamiSnuffles wrote...

highcastle wrote...

snip

I had no problem with why he lied- I understand and accept his explanation about Hawke either stopping him or helping him both being bad. My problem was just with the particular lie he used. As I said earlier, it felt out of place for me, since the codex had just confirmed that he was back to focusing on the cause instead of on things with Justice. As others have said, it also seems a little cruel to get a romanced Hawke's hopes up that way and it seems like the sort of thing that would make Hawke question him even more.

As to him hoping Hawke will be a leader for the mages in the friendmance... I get where you're coming from but I can't really see it as you've presented it. I can understand Hawke not being blamed for the Chantry business leaves Hawke in a better position to lead. However, if he really wanted Hawke to continue on with what he was doing, shouldn't he have involved Hawke more? He purposefully keeps Hawke out of the loop when it comes to the mage underground. This leaves Hawke a bit ill equipped to continue what Anders was doing because he/she doesn't really know much explicitly about what Anders was doing.

Well, in regards to involving Hawke more, Anders tells Isabela that if he were to win freedom for the mages at the cost of innocent lives, he would deserve to die. It's possibly the saddest banter in the game once you know what's coming.  If Anders believes he must die, he deserves to die so justice will be served, it makes sense he'd keep Hawke out of things if he wanted to keep him alive. He couldn't let Hawke shoulder any of the responsibility for it if he wants Hawke alive and as a future leader (or just alive period).

I agree with you that it's a little cruel using the Justice thing as a lie, but I understand it, too. On the friendship path at least, the romance options at one point all have you saying you don't want him to lose himself, not to the templars and not to Justice. I think Anders knew this was one thing he could use that would get Hawke's attention. His control's been slipping for years according to the codex. My Hawke at least was eager to reverse the possession, to save his lover. It's a blatant manipulation on Anders' part. I'm personally of the mind that he feels guilty about it, and it's one of the reasons he gets so depressed after the Justice quest (that and he's trying to distance himself from Hawke because he's preparing to die).

[YamiSnuffles]

highcastle wrote...

Well, in regards to involving Hawke more, Anders tells Isabela that if he were to win freedom for the mages at the cost of innocent lives, he would deserve to die. It's possibly the saddest banter in the game once you know what's coming.  If Anders believes he must die, he deserves to die so justice will be served, it makes sense he'd keep Hawke out of things if he wanted to keep him alive. He couldn't let Hawke shoulder any of the responsibility for it if he wants Hawke alive and as a future leader (or just alive period).

I agree with you that it's a little cruel using the Justice thing as a lie, but I understand it, too. On the friendship path at least, the romance options at one point all have you saying you don't want him to lose himself, not to the templars and not to Justice. I think Anders knew this was one thing he could use that would get Hawke's attention. His control's been slipping for years according to the codex. My Hawke at least was eager to reverse the possession, to save his lover. It's a blatant manipulation on Anders' part. I'm personally of the mind that he feels guilty about it, and it's one of the reasons he gets so depressed after the Justice quest (that and he's trying to distance himself from Hawke because he's preparing to die).

I don't mean more in the Justice quest- like I said, I understand why he has to lie and keep Hawke out of it as much as he can while still asking for help. I meant more in general. He says early on that he has to keep Hawke mostly out of the mage underground stuff because of Hawke's fame and new connections. However, if he's keeping Hawke mostly clueless about the details of the underground, he's really not helping set Hawke up to take over once he's gone. He doesn't have to let Hawke in on the bombing but he should be letting her/him in on freeing mages or whatever else it is he's doing. As it is, in the game he seems to only come to Hawke with any of those things when he's desperate and has no one else to help him.

I'll restate my problem with the timing of the Justice lie. The codex says he's been struggling with it but then he suddenly refocuses on fighting for mages instead of fighting with Justice. So to have him go back to talking about Justice all the sudden, seems like awkward timing to me. He could have just as easily gotten help from my Hawke if he just made up some vague lie/partial truth about doing something to help mages. Aside from that, though my Hawke would have been jumping at the chance to help Anders with Justice, she would have had a million questions over it. Considering it seemed like he was going to die in order to free Justice, I'm fairly sure- had the game allowed it- that's exactly the type of lie to get my Hawke to not help him gather ingredients. So the only reason my canon Hawke ended up helping him is because she didn't believe him in the slightest. That just made it seem like pointless cruelty. As for Anders, I have no doubt he feels guilty about it.

Modifié par YamiSnuffles, 06 mai 2011 - 01:38 .

[sassperella]

highcastle wrote...

YamiSnuffles wrote...

highcastle wrote...

snip

I had no problem with why he lied- I understand and accept his explanation about Hawke either stopping him or helping him both being bad. My problem was just with the particular lie he used. As I said earlier, it felt out of place for me, since the codex had just confirmed that he was back to focusing on the cause instead of on things with Justice. As others have said, it also seems a little cruel to get a romanced Hawke's hopes up that way and it seems like the sort of thing that would make Hawke question him even more.

As to him hoping Hawke will be a leader for the mages in the friendmance... I get where you're coming from but I can't really see it as you've presented it. I can understand Hawke not being blamed for the Chantry business leaves Hawke in a better position to lead. However, if he really wanted Hawke to continue on with what he was doing, shouldn't he have involved Hawke more? He purposefully keeps Hawke out of the loop when it comes to the mage underground. This leaves Hawke a bit ill equipped to continue what Anders was doing because he/she doesn't really know much explicitly about what Anders was doing.

Well, in regards to involving Hawke more, Anders tells Isabela that if he were to win freedom for the mages at the cost of innocent lives, he would deserve to die. It's possibly the saddest banter in the game once you know what's coming.  If Anders believes he must die, he deserves to die so justice will be served, it makes sense he'd keep Hawke out of things if he wanted to keep him alive. He couldn't let Hawke shoulder any of the responsibility for it if he wants Hawke alive and as a future leader (or just alive period).

I agree with you that it's a little cruel using the Justice thing as a lie, but I understand it, too. On the friendship path at least, the romance options at one point all have you saying you don't want him to lose himself, not to the templars and not to Justice. I think Anders knew this was one thing he could use that would get Hawke's attention. His control's been slipping for years according to the codex. My Hawke at least was eager to reverse the possession, to save his lover. It's a blatant manipulation on Anders' part. I'm personally of the mind that he feels guilty about it, and it's one of the reasons he gets so depressed after the Justice quest (that and he's trying to distance himself from Hawke because he's preparing to die).

The point is he didn't need to use that lie. Hawke would have helped no matter what, well mine would. He's using a lie that leaves him open to heaps of questions and scrutiny from Hawke and it's cruel. My Hawke would be much less inclined to help him on such a quest without a lot more information. He's clever enough to have come up with something that would have sounded plausible and inocuous and Hawke would have helped no questions asked. She helped him before, he has no reason to believe he needs to use more persuasive methods now.

I completely understand why he lies, my issue is not with that at all. But the lie he uses, for me at least, is out of character, and feels like a plot device to give the player hope that he can be separated from Justice, especially if romanced on on the friendship path. He can achieve everything he needs without being needlessly cruel to Hawke who has supported him throughout.

[highcastle]

YamiSnuffles wrote...
I don't mean more in the Justice quest- like I said, I understand why he has to lie and keep Hawke out of it as much as he can while still asking for help. I meant more in general. He says early on that he has to keep Hawke mostly out of the mage underground stuff because of Hawke's fame and new connections. However, if he's keeping Hawke mostly clueless about the details of the underground, he's really not helping set Hawke up to take over once he's gone. He doesn't have to let Hawke in on the bombing but he should be letting her/him in on freeing mages or whatever else it is he's doing. As it is, in the game he seems to only come to Hawke with any of those things when he's desperate and has no one else to help him.

I'll restate my problem with the timing of the Justice lie. The codex says he's been struggling with it but then he suddenly refocuses on fighting for mages instead of fighting with Justice. So to have him go back to talking about Justice all the sudden, seems like awkward timing to me. He could have just as easily gotten help from my Hawke if he just made up some vague lie/partial truth about doing something to help mages. Aside from that, though my Hawke would have been jumping at the chance to help Anders with Justice, she would have had a million questions over it. Considering it seemed like he was going to die in order to free Justice, I'm fairly sure- had the game allowed it- that's exactly the type of lie to get my Hawke to not help him gather ingredients. So the only reason my canon Hawke ended up helping him is because she didn't believe him in the slightest. That just made it seem like pointless cruelty. As for Anders, I have no doubt he feels guilty about it.

Sorry, I misunderstood there. Well, as for keeping Hawke out of the underground stuff, to be fair the whole secretly leading mages to freedom isn't going to have much relevance on a full-scale war. And Hakwe could have been involved to some degree. In Act 2, you can get access to those quests through Mistress Selbie in the docks. She's part of the Mage Underground, so Hawke can at least have had his foot in the door with the mages, giving them some reason to trust him. But yeah, you don't have to believe me at all. This is just head-canon for me. I think it makes sense Anders would want someone to lead the cause after he dies, and if friendmanced, I think Hawke is the perfect candidate. If he didn't perfectly prepare Hawke for it, well, he's also not rational.

As for the Justice lie...I think from a game development perspective, the devs went with using justice over mage freedom because on the rivalry path, you wouldn't want to help mages be free. But they still wanted to give you a good reason to participate in a quest that has such a big impact on the endgame. How to do that and still appeal to both sides? Bring Justice into it.

Honestly, on my first play through, I totally believed Anders right up until he asked me to distract the Grand Cleric. He said he had a potion, he promised it wouldn't hurt him (though he hinted it would, which just made my Hawke want to help him even more to keep him safe). It was only when he asked for help getting into the Chantry that I really started to suspect things were terribly wrong. And yes, it hurt like hell because he'd lied to me about the one thing I'd been fighting him on: Justice. But at least for my canon, I maintain it made sense. My Hawke would have done anything to get him free from Justice. It was absolutely cruel that this was used that way. It's one of the things that makes Anders not such a good person, however much I may still adore his character.

[YamiSnuffles]

highcastle wrote...

Sorry, I misunderstood there. Well, as for keeping Hawke out of the underground stuff, to be fair the whole secretly leading mages to freedom isn't going to have much relevance on a full-scale war. And Hakwe could have been involved to some degree. In Act 2, you can get access to those quests through Mistress Selbie in the docks. She's part of the Mage Underground, so Hawke can at least have had his foot in the door with the mages, giving them some reason to trust him. But yeah, you don't have to believe me at all. This is just head-canon for me. I think it makes sense Anders would want someone to lead the cause after he dies, and if friendmanced, I think Hawke is the perfect candidate. If he didn't perfectly prepare Hawke for it, well, he's also not rational.

As for the Justice lie...I think from a game development perspective, the devs went with using justice over mage freedom because on the rivalry path, you wouldn't want to help mages be free. But they still wanted to give you a good reason to participate in a quest that has such a big impact on the endgame. How to do that and still appeal to both sides? Bring Justice into it.

Honestly, on my first play through, I totally believed Anders right up until he asked me to distract the Grand Cleric. He said he had a potion, he promised it wouldn't hurt him (though he hinted it would, which just made my Hawke want to help him even more to keep him safe). It was only when he asked for help getting into the Chantry that I really started to suspect things were terribly wrong. And yes, it hurt like hell because he'd lied to me about the one thing I'd been fighting him on: Justice. But at least for my canon, I maintain it made sense. My Hawke would have done anything to get him free from Justice. It was absolutely cruel that this was used that way. It's one of the things that makes Anders not such a good person, however much I may still adore his character.

I have no problem with that being your head canon for Anders' plans. To me it makes perfect sense that he would want a friend Hawke to take over after he's gone. My gripe isn't so much with what you're saying as with how the game sets things up. As it is, I have to pretend that despite what Anders says about keeping my Hawke out of the underground, she's doing more than I ever see in game. Not so much because she would need that exact experience under her belt, but because it would give her more connections. She would get to know more of the other people involved in fighting for mage freedom; connections that would surely be useful for when she's trying to rally people later on.

As for the lie, I didn't know what exactly he was making. I was completely clueless about it being, essentially gun powder and I'd gone into the game spoiler free. So I would assume my warrior Hawke and I were on about equal footing- we only had what Anders was saying to go off of. He was really sketchy on details and his mannerisms were way off, so I knew he was lying about something. Then he hinted that he might die but at least Justice would be free. I don't recall what he said exactly but it's before you even collect the ingredients. All I know is it set off all my warning bells so the only reason I helped him was because I hoped that him having to die was also part of the lie and that Hawke would actually be able to do something to avert that.

EDIT: Oh, and I forgot to add... for rivalry, I mentioned earlier that I could see them still using the Justice thing as his lie. That makes sense as it seems to be the main focus of a rival relationship. But for friendship, it seems like Hawke has done plenty to show his/her support for mages, so just making up a lie about helping them would have been sufficient. But I suppose it is easiest development-wise to use just one lie.

Modifié par YamiSnuffles, 06 mai 2011 - 02:13 .

[Threeparts]

ElleMullineux wrote...

Stupid LJ, just managed to trace more of The Box through the jumbled up comments etc. Really shouldn't have been reading it in work - my face is RED - but totally worth it.

Someone put together a Google Docs version, so you can read all of it (well, all but the conclusion we're waiting for) at once.

The other option which might fit for some of you is that he's already on the path to distancing himself from Hawke. That lie is part of him trying to be an arse and getting Hawke cross/angry and break up with him due to his self-loathing or due to him trying to drive a wedge between them before he has to move onto the end-game. I could see Anders actually thinking it would be better for Hawke after all if Hawke hated him.

That... is a horrible, passive-agressive way to go about it. Unfortunately, it could totally be the case. Maker knows we get enough mixed signals from him during Act III: "I never meant to hurt you but I'll break your heart but know it breaks mine to do it but I'm still going to live with you but I'll tell you off for trying to talk to me on the streets of Kirkwall but never doubt I always loved you, and oh, hey, do you like my new jacket?"
****ing hell, Anders, you try my patience sometimes.

Modifié par Threeparts, 06 mai 2011 - 02:04 .

[Sialater]

ElleMullineux wrote...

Stupid LJ, just managed to trace more of The Box through the jumbled up comments etc. Really shouldn't have been reading it in work - my face is RED - but totally worth it.

As for that lie might it be just be a case of something that Anders thinks "Hawke will definitely help me if it's for this"? Which is kinda my interrpretation.

The other option which might fit for some of you is that he's already on the path to distancing himself from Hawke. That lie is part of him trying to be an arse and getting Hawke cross/angry and break up with him due to his self-loathing or due to him trying to drive a wedge between them before he has to move onto the end-game. I could see Anders actually thinking it would be better for Hawke after all if Hawke hated him.

Yes.  He wants Hawke to hate him enough to stab him.  Or at least break up with him to protect her.

[highcastle]

Sialater wrote...

ElleMullineux wrote...

Stupid LJ, just managed to trace more of The Box through the jumbled up comments etc. Really shouldn't have been reading it in work - my face is RED - but totally worth it.

As for that lie might it be just be a case of something that Anders thinks "Hawke will definitely help me if it's for this"? Which is kinda my interrpretation.

The other option which might fit for some of you is that he's already on the path to distancing himself from Hawke. That lie is part of him trying to be an arse and getting Hawke cross/angry and break up with him due to his self-loathing or due to him trying to drive a wedge between them before he has to move onto the end-game. I could see Anders actually thinking it would be better for Hawke after all if Hawke hated him.

Yes.  He wants Hawke to hate him enough to stab him.  Or at least break up with him to protect her.

Yeah, that's definitely part of the impression I get too. I think the cruelty is very much intentional, very manipulative, and in my head-canon it probably causes him a lot of angst.

[YamiSnuffles]

Oh Templars...

I am currently playing through with my rogue Hawke and was just going about rescuing Emeric. Just as we finish off the last of the bad guys, Anders shouts, "My magic will destroy you!"

Don't mind us Emeric. No apostates here...

[Sialater]

highcastle wrote...

Sialater wrote...

ElleMullineux wrote...

Stupid LJ, just managed to trace more of The Box through the jumbled up comments etc. Really shouldn't have been reading it in work - my face is RED - but totally worth it.

As for that lie might it be just be a case of something that Anders thinks "Hawke will definitely help me if it's for this"? Which is kinda my interrpretation.

The other option which might fit for some of you is that he's already on the path to distancing himself from Hawke. That lie is part of him trying to be an arse and getting Hawke cross/angry and break up with him due to his self-loathing or due to him trying to drive a wedge between them before he has to move onto the end-game. I could see Anders actually thinking it would be better for Hawke after all if Hawke hated him.

Yes.  He wants Hawke to hate him enough to stab him.  Or at least break up with him to protect her.

Yeah, that's definitely part of the impression I get too. I think the cruelty is very much intentional, very manipulative, and in my head-canon it probably causes him a lot of angst.

Yeah, by the time their argument comes to a head, Margaret's always wishing her brother was there.  After all, Anders is all she has left at that point and brother dear's off playing Warden and not speaking to her.

[Ninche]

ElleMullineux wrote...

(Thanks for the next chapter btw, you've saved me from a final hour in work blushing furiously as I re-read The Box 25-28 in work )

Hey just in case you're interested in other kink stories, here's one of my favourites: Second Opinion 

It's Anders medical kink and it's sooooo in character and sweet/sexy. I have to warn you there is a speculum involved but just get through it - it's worth it! I've suggested this like 5 times on the forum already but I can't help it it's that good! 

[Ashwraith]

YamiSnuffles wrote...

Threeparts wrote...



obb

Oh man, Dr. Anders. Better yet, Dr. Anders with glasses.

I would buy all of those. They'd be hilarious. I am definitely, 100% behing Izzy dressed as Jack Sparrow.

Captain. Captain Jack Sparrow.
(P.S.- I totally agree. :3)

[Retrogue]

Anders romance question here. Sorry to veer the discussion off-topic, but I haven't played through Act II yet so I don't even have an opinion on his end-game actions. But let's just say my rogue enjoys being a little rebel with him.

During the Questioning Beliefs quest, I really wanted her to say "I don't do it for you, Anders" because the truth of the matter is... She doesn't. She does it for her sister and the memory of her father. However, every time I selected that, there was then no other option to initiate the kiss and the promise of a nocturnal visit. Is saying "I always like to help the underdog" or "I do it for you" the only ways to trigger a romance with Anders? She's flirted with him before, but is this the only window? Because she is not one to coddle people.

Modifié par Retrogue, 06 mai 2011 - 04:09 .

[highcastle]

ElleMullineux wrote...

Ninche wrote...

ElleMullineux wrote...

(Thanks for the next chapter btw, you've saved me from a final hour in work blushing furiously as I re-read The Box 25-28 in work )

Hey just in case you're interested in other kink stories, here's one of my favourites: Second Opinion 

It's Anders medical kink and it's sooooo in character and sweet/sexy. I have to warn you there is a speculum involved but just get through it - it's worth it! I've suggested this like 5 times on the forum already but I can't help it it's that good! 

Ninche!!! I'm trying to avoid blushing for the last twenty minutes now. I'll have to save it for on my phone on the train. Can I call you my internet bestie for supplying me with kink?

I love that Highcastle's chapter for today was about the lie! And it worked so well, love it.

Lol. I was editing that chapter and trying not to say everything in my discussion here that I was pouring into the fic itself. I walk a fine and crazy line sometimes.

[Threeparts]

Retrogue wrote...

Anders romance question here. Sorry to veer the discussion off-topic, but I haven't played through Act II yet so I don't even have an opinion on his end-game actions. But let's just say my rogue enjoys being a little rebel with him.

During the Questioning Beliefs quest, I really wanted her to say "I don't do it for you, Anders" because the truth of the matter is... She doesn't. She does it for her sister and the memory of her father. However, every time I selected that, there was then no other option to initiate the kiss and the promise of a nocturnal visit. Is saying "I always like to help the underdog" or "I do it for you" the only ways to trigger a romance with Anders? She's flirted with him before, but is this the only window? Because she is not one to coddle people.

Nope, you need to choose one of those two flirt lines to get The Kiss and the subsequent house call. It can be annoying if it's a little out of character for your Hawke, but you have the option to play off the underdog line as the less... intense way to his heart.

[JesterPsychotica]

http://img687.images...3/alighain3.png

Guys...why does scary Loghain pron always find me? I swear I was just looking for Alistair images. >.<

[highcastle]

Threeparts wrote...

Retrogue wrote...

Anders romance question here. Sorry to veer the discussion off-topic, but I haven't played through Act II yet so I don't even have an opinion on his end-game actions. But let's just say my rogue enjoys being a little rebel with him.

During the Questioning Beliefs quest, I really wanted her to say "I don't do it for you, Anders" because the truth of the matter is... She doesn't. She does it for her sister and the memory of her father. However, every time I selected that, there was then no other option to initiate the kiss and the promise of a nocturnal visit. Is saying "I always like to help the underdog" or "I do it for you" the only ways to trigger a romance with Anders? She's flirted with him before, but is this the only window? Because she is not one to coddle people.

Nope, you need to choose one of those two flirt lines to get The Kiss and the subsequent house call. It can be annoying if it's a little out of character for your Hawke, but you have the option to play off the underdog line as the less... intense way to his heart.

That's interesting that those responses vary somewhat from male to female. m!Hawke doesn't get the underdog one. He gets the, "I don't care about politics, I just want to keep you safe" and "I think it'd be hard for anyone to keep their hands off you when you get like this." There are a lot of subtle differences between the genders when it comes to romance lines. Some I get, but I wonder why the change here?