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[maselphie]

Oh, boo, you guys. You know "better" is totally subjective. I meant she wasn't harboring as much hate as him, nor was as violent (she liked it when you were peaceful in convos). Anders was more like a demon than her (wrath, vengeance, envy etc), so it easy to see how he could become one.

I totally understand Anders, for the most part. If I were enslaved and I knew that I could be free, and I had no choice not to be for my entire life because of something I had no control over (unlike Fenris, who says that he never really thought about not being a slave for a while), that is maddening. You lose yourself, because you're not allowed to be yourself. I was never sure if he wanted to free all mages, or was just really upset that he was a mage. It seemed more a game to him, from how he talked playfully about being dragged back to the Circle multiple times. But seriously, he was cracked in Awakenings, and he comes off as very normal in DA2, which threw me off guard. And then I was reminded.

[Veritrix]

After romancing Anders with a FemHawke Rogue all I can think of was, "Wow... this makes me think of Bad Romance."

[Rinji the Bearded]

MsKehoe wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

maselphie wrote...

Wynne was naturally a better person than Anders, I believe. Justice wasn't a demon, HE was the one corrupted, from what I've seen. Anders was the darker between the two. I mean, remember how you met him in Awakenings. Bodies around him, and him just smiling, acting all woobie. But the guy is scary as hell. And he somehow makes us forget it with talks of kittens! Now THAT is pure evil!

A better person to some, maybe, but I remember having a distinct dislike for her when I played my Mage in DA:O.  My impression of the Circle was bad from the start, and then she sits there and tries to tell me that it's perfectly fine to be locked up?  Yeesh.  Couldn't stand it.

Not gonna lie, I think Anders's opinions of the Templars were already pretty rock bottom when our Wardens met him in Awakening.  I remember when he told my Warden that he had been locked up for a year in solitary confinement... and I sat back, wondering, "And how are you not... completely bonkers now?"

... Guess I was right.  But here's to fighting for a future where we can prevent things like this from happening ever again.

A whole YEAR? Christ, the more damaged he is, the more I want to hold him and tell him everything is going to be alright. D:

I know, right?   And even after that punishment, he escaped.  I can only imagine my Hawke hearing these stories of his, and just staring at him in horror... then taking him in her arms anyway.  And all the while, he'd be thinking about how much he loved her, and the guilt, and wanting that world where he could love her without fear of being ripped apart from her... So sad...

Look at us.  We're gonna need a support group.

[maselphie]

Bekkael wrote...

Wow. I had absolutely no intention of romancing Anders or following his point of view, but he used his sweetness persuasion on my rogue. If I ever manage to get a character to romance anyone but him, I'm going to need a ring with an enchantment-- Immunity to Anders Charm: 100% 

Sheesh, it's like Alistair all over again, but with a twist of insane. I tried a Fenris romance, but was so unimpressed with his anger issues that I backloaded to Anders.

Sebastian is extemely meh. I love his VA

This was my gameplay experience, basically word for word. I was like YAY FENRIS YEeee Anders? When'd you get so ... kiss me? Okay, I mean, just a little. .dsfsdfg. Maybe next time, Fenny.

[Raiil]

maselphie wrote...

Wynne was naturally a better person than Anders, I believe. Justice wasn't a demon, HE was the one corrupted, from what I've seen. Anders was the darker between the two. I mean, remember how you met him in Awakenings. Bodies around him, and him just smiling, acting all woobie. But the guy is scary as hell. And he somehow makes us forget it with talks of kittens! Now THAT is pure evil!

Eh, not really. Wynne lived a cushy life in a relatively low key enviorment. Most mages were taken young. Anders, iirc, wasn't. He knew what freedom was like. Wynne was very devout; Anders isn't. And Anders didn't take Justice and dip him in the evil sauce; he was inadvertantly transformed by a young man's bitterness towards a system that broke his mother's heart, turned his father against him, and trapped him in a tower that did things like lock him up for a year in solitary. I don't know about you, but a lot of people would build up bitterness, and what happened to Justice was a) an accident and a tragedy for both involved. He became Vengeance, which isn't exactly Pride or Lust. Vengeance can, and has been, justified. Or is Cousland evil for wanting to end the life of the man who destroyed her family? Is the City Elf wrong for wanting to avenge a raped cousin? Is the Noble Dwarf in harbouring ill-will towards the brother who engineered her downfall and sent her skyrocketing onto the surface world?

Revenge and Vengeance are two labels that get used interchangably, depending on how you feel about the situation.

[MsKehoe]

Veritrix wrote...

After romancing Anders with a FemHawke Rogue all I can think of was, "Wow... this makes me think of Bad Romance."

Great. Now I can't unsee it. XD

[leggywillow]

Maybe Wynne did corrupt the spirit inside her.  It obviously became a Demon of Being Preachy, Holier-Than-Thou, and Sticking Its Nose In Other People's Business.    Those demons just aren't as flashy.

[Raiil]

leggywillow wrote...

Maybe Wynne did corrupt the spirit inside her.  It obviously became a Demon of Being Preachy, Holier-Than-Thou, and Sticking Its Nose In Other People's Business.    Those demons just aren't as flashy.

You summed up everything I dislike about her. She's the spirit of nosy old bat.

[maselphie]

Valentia X wrote...

He became Vengeance, which isn't exactly Pride or Lust. Vengeance can, and has been, justified.

The game draws a clear distinction between a Vengence demon and a Justice spirit, namely, that one is a demon and the other is spirit. So the developers DO acknowledge there being a good/evil system among fade spirits, even if it's only so because that's what the humans decided to call them. It's true Vengence can be Justice, because in this game, Justice is Vengence. But I could also say that Pride, Lust, etc can be justified, too. It's mostly situational, so the very idea of those things are what are deadly, not the scenarios that they are put in. And those ideas can only ever have context by leaving the Fade; their context is their host. Justice was justice through Anders' eyes. Whether or not Anders' justice is ... justice ... is up for us each to decide.

[Bekkael]

maselphie wrote...

Bekkael wrote...

Wow. I had absolutely no intention of romancing Anders or following his point of view, but he used his sweetness persuasion on my rogue. If I ever manage to get a character to romance anyone but him, I'm going to need a ring with an enchantment-- Immunity to Anders Charm: 100% 

Sheesh, it's like Alistair all over again, but with a twist of insane. I tried a Fenris romance, but was so unimpressed with his anger issues that I backloaded to Anders.

Sebastian is extemely meh. I love his VA

This was my gameplay experience, basically word for word. I was like YAY FENRIS YEeee Anders? When'd you get so ... kiss me? Okay, I mean, just a little. .dsfsdfg. Maybe next time, Fenny.

Yeah. I have to give it to BW- that love scene was extremely classy and well done. Soooo much better than the DA:O scenes that made me cover my eyes to keep from cringing.

[Darkannex]

teehee XD

I did say I got your point. Im just not a big Wynne fan in general. So I had to get a dig at her anywhere I can. LOL.

It's left deliberately vague (I think) that Anders did/did not kill the Templars at the start of Awakenings. I personally do not feel he did, but there's that hint of unknowing, and a darkness beneath the jovial facade. While it wasn't the same writer, of course...I do not feel that this was totally out of the blue.

I always felt Anders just covered up his emotions because in the Circle, strong passions were exploitable and / or dangerous. Besides, someone was always watching.

I never felt he hated being a mage...just that by being a mage he was never allowed any chance at being 'normal'.

[nenosronhir]

Valentia X wrote...

Eh, not really. Wynne lived a cushy life in a relatively low key enviorment. Most mages were taken young. Anders, iirc, wasn't. He knew what freedom was like. Wynne was very devout; Anders isn't. And Anders didn't take Justice and dip him in the evil sauce; he was inadvertantly transformed by a young man's bitterness towards a system that broke his mother's heart, turned his father against him, and trapped him in a tower that did things like lock him up for a year in solitary. I don't know about you, but a lot of people would build up bitterness, and what happened to Justice was a) an accident and a tragedy for both involved. He became Vengeance, which isn't exactly Pride or Lust. Vengeance can, and has been, justified. Or is Cousland evil for wanting to end the life of the man who destroyed her family? Is the City Elf wrong for wanting to avenge a raped cousin? Is the Noble Dwarf in harbouring ill-will towards the brother who engineered her downfall and sent her skyrocketing onto the surface world?

Revenge and Vengeance are two labels that get used interchangably, depending on how you feel about the situation.

I feel like this is banner material! And completely not my brain gutterballing, nope nope.

Back on topicish - Wynne was also possessed by a spirit of Faith, which implies a far more benign concept/being than Justice, also. I liked Wynne, but she could be a snippy old bag when she felt like it.

[Raiil]

maselphie wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

He became Vengeance, which isn't exactly Pride or Lust. Vengeance can, and has been, justified.

The game draws a clear distinction between a Vengence demon and a Justice spirit, namely, that one is a demon and the other is spirit. So the developers DO acknowledge there being a good/evil system among fade spirits, even if it's only so because that's what the humans decided to call them. It's true Vengence can be Justice, because in this game, Justice is Vengence. But I could also say that Pride, Lust, etc can be justified, too. It's mostly situational, so the very idea of those things are what are deadly, not the scenarios that they are put in. And those ideas can only ever have context by leaving the Fade; their context is their host. Justice was justice through Anders' eyes. Whether or not Anders' justice is ... justice ... is up for us each to decide.

I'd argue that while Lust and Pride are internal, Vengeance is a reaction a wrong (imagined or realised). It's easier to, erm, justify Vengeance as a 'crime' or a sin (or rather that it's an understandable sin) than it is lust for a lot of people, at least based on Western beliefs. Vengeance, by definition, is a retaliation to outside forces. It comes into being after hurt has been inflicted on something or someone. Vengeance is also not necessarily intensely personal, at least in this case: Anders wants to free every other mage just as badly as he wants it for himself. He wasn't always like that; the conversation he has with Justice in Awakenings about why he hasn't helped more is proof. Whether you think Justice was corrupted, or just transformed and focused, remains somewhat subjective.

[Bekkael]

leggywillow wrote...

Maybe Wynne did corrupt the spirit inside her.  It obviously became a Demon of Being Preachy, Holier-Than-Thou, and Sticking Its Nose In Other People's Business.    Those demons just aren't as flashy.

This made me LOL! I hated Wynne with a purple passion. I never took her with me if I could avoid it, and her conversations were pure pain.

Anders was nothing like that. Even before I started to see where he was coming from, he never behaved like an obnoxious prat. 

[mander83]

So I went into DAII feeling fairly confident that my Lady Hawke was going to romance Fenris. Then two things happened- Fenris disagreed with pretty much everything I ever did and Anders was just so darn wonderful! Amara Hawke was very pro-mage from the get go...because of her family and all that. So she and Anders were just perfect.

I was so sure they were going to make him die though. Completely certain. Then...he didn't! Glorious.

I kind of really desperately want to know what happens next though. Bah.

Basically, Anders is pure win. (:

[maselphie]

Valentia X wrote...

I'd argue that while Lust and Pride are internal, Vengeance is a reaction a wrong (imagined or realised).

Nah, nah, nah. If Vengence is either realized or imagined, it's internal. Lust is way more external than Vengence, because it pratically requires there to be another person to lust after. They're all the same level of external/internal. But that's the thing. If a tree falls in the forest, does it make a sound? By ourselves, is there ANY sin? Is sin only wrong-doing unto others? We're getting neck-deep in philosophy here! xD Lust can lead to as bad a place as vengence or pride or greed. Sloth is just as bad as vengence (like someone said, all it takes for evil to prevail is for the good guys to do nothing). Still, the developers do acknowledge that there is a tier system to the demons, with Rage being the weakest and Pride being the strongest.

But what were talking about? Justice being corrupted? Well, that's basically what the developers said flat out. But, personally, I wouldn't have needed them to. Knowing of Justice and Anders in Awakenings lets me know who changed more.

edit: found what his official page says:

Anders agreed to become Justice's human host… only to find that his anger at the Circle warped Justice into the demonic spirit of Vengeance.

Modifié par maselphie, 12 mars 2011 - 07:17 .

[leggywillow]

Sooo... is there a LI conflict/confrontation at any point?  Because my mage Hawke is currently being the biggest hussy in Kirkwall.   She slept with Isabela (though that may not count because I said we weren't bringing feelings into it), slept with Fenris, and now she's making out with Anders.  I'm about to sex him up; we'll see if he mentions Fenris then.

Lady Hawke: Sleeping with everyone in Kirkwall, FOR SCIENCE!

EDIT:  Okay, so he does mention Fenris when he shows up at the estate... argh, now I don't know what to do!  I wanted my militant mage to be with Fenris but I can't resist Anders!  I just can't!  I told him that Fenris left me, and he said "I'm sorry if he hurt you.  But I'm glad it led you to me." 

If you stay loyal to Fenris, though, Anders gets a bit hypocritical, making references to "taming the beast" and "whatever you see in a maniac like that".  XD  You're not the most stable person yourself, dude.  I forgive him, though, since Lady Hawke was a shameless hussy in leading him there.

EDIT AGAIN:  Uh-oh, Lady Hawke is getting her lovers mixed up... she called Fenris "she" at one point. ::snerk::

Modifié par leggywillow, 12 mars 2011 - 07:29 .

[Lady Jess]

Squeeeeeeeee!! (Sorry) It didn't say "...for a time" in the epilogue! It said everyone left eventually...EXCEPT for Anders. But dammit who is stealing our heroes!

I took a complete "Stand by Your Man" PoV. Mainly because Caira is a mage too, and she had started seeing Anders' side of things. That the Templars squeezing was forcing GOOD mages to do desperate things, such as blood magic, which made ALL mages look guilty and made the templars squeeze even more. She realized it was never going to be resolved without something polarising. While she felt bad (worse with Sebastian...ouch!) about the Grand Cleric, her only really complaint was he didn't tell her. But if thats what it took to show blondy mcCrazy pants was a complete NUTCASE then it served the greater good.

Modifié par Lady Jess, 12 mars 2011 - 07:33 .

[leggywillow]

Lady Jess wrote...

Squeeeeeeeee!! (Sorry) It didn't say "...for a time" in the epilogue! It said everyone left eventually...EXCEPT for Anders. But dammit who is stealing our heroes!

I have a horrifying mental image of Flemeth creating a Harvester made of badasses. 

[Bekkael]

leggywillow wrote...

Sooo... is there a LI conflict/confrontation at any point?  Because my mage Hawke is currently being the biggest hussy in Kirkwall.   She slept with Isabela (though that may not count because I said we weren't bringing feelings into it), slept with Fenris, and now she's making out with Anders.  I'm about to sex him up; we'll see if he mentions Fenris then.

Lady Hawke: Sleeping with everyone in Kirkwall, FOR SCIENCE!

EDIT:  Okay, so he does mention Fenris when he shows up at the estate... argh, now I don't know what to do!  I wanted my militant mage to be with Fenris but I can't resist Anders!  I just can't!  I told him that Fenris left me, and he said "I'm sorry if he hurt you.  But I'm glad it led you to me." 

If you stay loyal to Fenris, though, Anders gets a bit hypocritical, making references to "taming the beast" and "whatever you see in a maniac like that".  XD  You're not the most stable person yourself, dude.  I forgive him, though, since Lady Hawke was a shameless hussy in leading him there.

EDIT AGAIN:  Uh-oh, Lady Hawke is getting her lovers mixed up... she called Fenris "she" at one point. ::snerk::

Well, I'm really excited to hear that! I wanted to play my rogue as a bit of a flirt, but when I started romancing Anders, all my flirt dialogue for Fenris disappeared. I thought the game decided to make a moral choice for me.

[Lady Jess]

leggywillow wrote...

Lady Jess wrote...

Squeeeeeeeee!! (Sorry) It didn't say "...for a time" in the epilogue! It said everyone left eventually...EXCEPT for Anders. But dammit who is stealing our heroes!

I have a horrifying mental image of Flemeth creating a Harvester made of badasses. 

Me too!

[Kim Shepard]

leggywillow wrote...

EDIT:  Okay, so he does mention Fenris when he shows up at the estate... argh, now I don't know what to do!  I wanted my militant mage to be with Fenris but I can't resist Anders!  I just can't!  I told him that Fenris left me, and he said "I'm sorry if he hurt you.  But I'm glad it led you to me." 

That sounds adorable. I just recruited Fenris, and I have to keep telling myself that this FemHawke is for Anders and the next one will be for him. xD

[leggywillow]

I just got some awesome banter between Fenris and Anders after Hawke sleeps with both of them and ALMOST DIED OF SQUEE.

Anders: You were an idiot to leave Hawke
Fenris: And you were fast enough to replace me
Anders: I love her.  You can't even imagine what that is.
Fenris: Do not bare your heart to me, mage.  Unless you would see me rip it out.

[nenosronhir]

leggywillow wrote...

Lady Jess wrote...

Squeeeeeeeee!! (Sorry) It didn't say "...for a time" in the epilogue! It said everyone left eventually...EXCEPT for Anders. But dammit who is stealing our heroes!

I have a horrifying mental image of Flemeth creating a Harvester made of badasses. 

I swear to god if Flemeth is collecting heroes and we get to meet Maric at some point I am just going. to. EXPLODE. Also - anyone noticing a distinct "I. AM. FERELDEN." theme? Andraste, Maric, Duncan, the Warden, Loghain, Anders, Hawke(and probably moar that I'm forgetting)?

Edit:

I just got some awesome banter between Fenris and Anders after Hawke sleeps with both of them and ALMOST DIED OF SQUEE.

Anders: You were an idiot to leave Hawke
Fenris: And you were fast enough to replace me
Anders: I love her.  You can't even imagine what that is.
Fenris: Do not bare your heart to me, mage.  Unless you would see me rip it out.

OMG that is adorable!! ... now I want to see what the oppositeisohgodI'materriblepersonnoooo

Modifié par nenosronhir, 12 mars 2011 - 07:55 .