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[christrek1982]

Hello all I have a question one that will no doubt cause you all to jump on me and rip me to paces in a fit of fanders rage but hear I go. Isn't Anders and Merrill Different sides of the same coin?  Hear me out.

1 They both have lofty goals

2 They have both dealt with daemons spirits In Anders case he has become possessed by justice and yet in some way feels he can tell Merrill that she is a fool for trusting a demon and that justice is in some way different. To which Merrill tells Anders “there's no such thing as a good spirit” this makes sense as a demon spirit is the embodiment of a human trait or emotion. And if you think about it any single emotion can be destructive if it becomes dominant in someone’s personality  weather that be love, hate,faith or a sense of justice.

3 there actions can both end in the loss of innocent life the only difference is that there is no way to prevent the loss of life when it comes down to Anders. And also Merrill didn't intend for any of it to happen the way it did where as Anders had every intermission of doing what he
did and even lied to Hawke in order to get his/her help.



This is not meant as a dig and as I do like him but this is just how I see it so what do you all thing how do you see things differently or do you agree?  Please don't dismiss this as a Anders bashing or in turn make this into a Merrill bashing This is just my point of view I'd like to get yours and read you arguments for and against.

Thank you

Modifié par christrek1982, 09 mai 2011 - 08:42 .

[Sialater]

I believe they were set up as foils, yes. But then, as one of the main characters, Anders has many foils.

[Amondra]

christrek1982 wrote...


Hello all I have a question one that will no doubt cause you all to jump on me and rip me to paces in a fit of fanders rage but hear I go. Isn't Anders and Merrill Different sides of the same coin?  Hear me out.

1 They both have lofty goals

2 They have both dealt with daemons spirits In Anders case he has become possessed by justice and yet in some way feels he can tell Merrill that she is a fool for trusting a demon and that justice is in some way different. To which Merrill tells Anders “there's no such thing as a good spirit” this makes sense as a demon spirit is the embodiment of a human trait or emotion. And if you think about it any single emotion can be destructive if it becomes dominant in someone’s personality  weather that be love, hate,faith or a sense of justice.

3 there actions can both end in the loss of innocent life the only difference is that there is no way to prevent the loss of life when it comes down to Anders. And also Merrill didn't intend for any of it to happen the way it did where as Anders had every intermission of doing what he
did and even lied to Hawke in order to get his/her help.



This is not meant as a dig and as I do like him but this is just how I see it so what do you all thing how do you see things differently or do you agree?  Please don't dismiss this as a Anders bashing or in turn make this into a Merrill bashing This is just my point of view I'd like to get yours and read you arguments for and against.

Thank you

I think Anders was tough loving her into seeing the path she was going down as he was already at the end of or cloes enough.  He didn't want her making the same mistake he made.  I don't think Anders really on a "My spirit is better then yours." kick as much as he was "Mine is considered to be one of the better spirits and look what has happened."  because Merrills is out right an aspect of a sin.  Like I said I think he was trying to protect her in this tough sort of way, since she can be as dense as he can.

[christrek1982]

thank PS I like you tag

[kromify]

that pretty much makes sense; though i think each character is a foil for all the others

[christrek1982]

Amondra wrote...

christrek1982 wrote...


Hello all I have a question one that will no doubt cause you all to jump on me and rip me to paces in a fit of fanders rage but hear I go. Isn't Anders and Merrill Different sides of the same coin?  Hear me out.

1 They both have lofty goals

2 They have both dealt with daemons spirits In Anders case he has become possessed by justice and yet in some way feels he can tell Merrill that she is a fool for trusting a demon and that justice is in some way different. To which Merrill tells Anders “there's no such thing as a good spirit” this makes sense as a demon spirit is the embodiment of a human trait or emotion. And if you think about it any single emotion can be destructive if it becomes dominant in someone’s personality  weather that be love, hate,faith or a sense of justice.

3 there actions can both end in the loss of innocent life the only difference is that there is no way to prevent the loss of life when it comes down to Anders. And also Merrill didn't intend for any of it to happen the way it did where as Anders had every intermission of doing what he
did and even lied to Hawke in order to get his/her help.



This is not meant as a dig and as I do like him but this is just how I see it so what do you all thing how do you see things differently or do you agree?  Please don't dismiss this as a Anders bashing or in turn make this into a Merrill bashing This is just my point of view I'd like to get yours and read you arguments for and against.

Thank you

I think Anders was tough loving her into seeing the path she was going down as he was already at the end of or cloes enough.  He didn't want her making the same mistake he made.  I don't think Anders really on a "My spirit is better then yours." kick as much as he was "Mine is considered to be one of the better spirits and look what has happened."  because Merrills is out right an aspect of a sin.  Like I said I think he was trying to protect her in this tough sort of way, since she can be as dense as he can.

Thats a far point and yes I have seen it this way too but isn't that a bit like telling a kid that smoking is bad while you smoke a pipe.

But yes I do get the harsh help sort of thing more so after he almost kills the mage he was trying to help

[christrek1982]

I don't think that anders was on a power trip but I do think that he felt that Justice was good or righteous or whatever because of the virtue that he represented

[YamiSnuffles]

christrek1982 wrote...

Amondra wrote...

I think Anders was tough loving her into seeing the path she was going down as he was already at the end of or cloes enough.  He didn't want her making the same mistake he made.  I don't think Anders really on a "My spirit is better then yours." kick as much as he was "Mine is considered to be one of the better spirits and look what has happened."  because Merrills is out right an aspect of a sin.  Like I said I think he was trying to protect her in this tough sort of way, since she can be as dense as he can.

Thats a far point and yes I have seen it this way too but isn't that a bit like telling a kid that smoking is bad while you smoke a pipe.

But yes I do get the harsh help sort of thing more so after he almost kills the mage he was trying to help

I don't think it's quite the same as the parent example you gave. The parent has a choice to keep smoking. Anders is stuck with Justice now. It's more like a parent who did something dangerous in their youth and is now warning their kid not to do the same thing. Yes, the parent did the very thing they are warning their child against, but they have every right to do so. The parent has the experience and perspective to warn of dangerous behavior.

Anders did something he now really regrets and he's trying to stop Merrill from doing the same thing. It's too late for him, but it's not too late for her. She can stop before anything bad happens.

[christrek1982]

I'm sorry but I'm going to be rearly dence now Foil? as in oposed or counterbalnce or fall guy?

Modifié par christrek1982, 09 mai 2011 - 09:07 .

[christrek1982]

YamiSnuffles wrote...

christrek1982 wrote...

Amondra wrote...

I think Anders was tough loving her into seeing the path she was going down as he was already at the end of or cloes enough.  He didn't want her making the same mistake he made.  I don't think Anders really on a "My spirit is better then yours." kick as much as he was "Mine is considered to be one of the better spirits and look what has happened."  because Merrills is out right an aspect of a sin.  Like I said I think he was trying to protect her in this tough sort of way, since she can be as dense as he can.

Thats a far point and yes I have seen it this way too but isn't that a bit like telling a kid that smoking is bad while you smoke a pipe.

But yes I do get the harsh help sort of thing more so after he almost kills the mage he was trying to help

I don't think it's quite the same as the parent example you gave. The parent has a choice to keep smoking. Anders is stuck with Justice now. It's more like a parent who did something dangerous in their youth and is now warning their kid not to do the same thing. Yes, the parent did the very thing they are warning their child against, but they have every right to do so. The parent has the experience and perspective to warn of dangerous behavior.

Anders did something he now really regrets and he's trying to stop Merrill from doing the same thing. It's too late for him, but it's not too late for her. She can stop before anything bad happens.

Again another far point and it is true that the wisdom of experience or age offen fall on deff ears

Modifié par christrek1982, 09 mai 2011 - 09:05 .

[Dunizel]

YamiSnuffles wrote...

Anders did something he now really regrets and he's trying to stop Merrill from doing the same thing. It's too late for him, but it's not too late for her. She can stop before anything bad happens.

Anders has even a banter with her, if you go with him to Sundermount for her last quest. He tells this exact same thing, that she has choices, she always had, and she should stop right now before it is too late. Later on ascending the mount Merril answers something like "sure, I'll stop right after you abandon your cause"...which was a bit of a childish anser to be honest.
I think he dislikes Merrill more for her use of Blood Magic, and she is sure she can control the influence the demon has on her.

She understood that there are no good or evil spirits, but still she doesn't want to see the risks. She says that blood magic is not evil, is just a magic like any other. Which is scary in my opinion, if you learn to use blood magic from a demon (or a spirit, as she calls it)

Anders sure is blind concerning some arguments, but in the case of Merrill he seems more concerned and he is projecting a lot of what happened to him. 

[christrek1982]

ok so far as the blood magic. you may have to get it a shady way now but maybe not always and at the end of the day it is a tool a very dangerous tool yes but so is a hammer or an axe.

I have had a similar debate with someone that I know about the internet she thinks that it is evil in carnet because she dosn't understand it and because it can de used for evil deeds and refuses to see the advantages

Modifié par christrek1982, 09 mai 2011 - 09:22 .

[YamiSnuffles]

christrek1982 wrote...

ok so far as the blood magic. you may have to get it a shady way now but maybe not always and at the end of the day it is a tool a very dangerous tool yes but so is a hammer or an axe.

I have had a similar debate with someone that I know about the internet she thinks that it is evil in carnet because she dosn't understand it and because it can de used for evil deeds and refuses to see the advantages

I don't think Blood Magic is pure evil, but it is very dangerous. It opens you up to demons in ways that other magic does not. Thus, if you want to use Blood Magic, you have to be extra careful. Merrill treats it like it's no different than any other magic. She might get the same results by making a deal with a demon as she would using a pile of lyrium, but that doesn't mean it's the same thing.

It's the same with how she discusses Spirits and Demons. I believe she is right in telling Anders that they are both dangerous. However, where she goes wrong is that she also seems to think they are equally helpful as well. She simply doesn't see anything wrong with making a deal with a demon. She doesn't seem to take the price and danger very seriously.

[kromify]

ElleMullineux wrote...

DA:A is making my brain bleed - despite having replayed my cannon DA:O I keep wanting to react to Anders like my Hawke would and it just doesn't fit. Feeling a bit JAnders about it all. :s

As for Merril and Anders, after my first play through I was a lot nicer to her, I felt guilty for supporting Anders but not her. But Merril is lucky, she had her tribe, she has Hawke and co to guide her and help her when it all goes horribly wrong. If the system hadn't so thoroughly broken and destroyed Anders he might have made other choices. But he didn't, and I think in his own way he's trying to help her.

i just can't finish it; i get bored

[christrek1982]

ElleMullineux wrote...

DA:A is making my brain bleed - despite having replayed my cannon DA:O I keep wanting to react to Anders like my Hawke would and it just doesn't fit. Feeling a bit JAnders about it all. :s

As for Merril and Anders, after my first play through I was a lot nicer to her, I felt guilty for supporting Anders but not her. But Merril is lucky, she had her tribe, she has Hawke and co to guide her and help her when it all goes horribly wrong. If the system hadn't so thoroughly broken and destroyed Anders he might have made other choices. But he didn't, and I think in his own way he's trying to help her.

thats arealy nice view point and one that I hadent thaught about thanks

[Sable Rhapsody]

kromify wrote...

i just can't finish it; i get bored

Yeah...replaying DA:O is not happening.  It was a more polished game than DA2 by far, with fewer cut corners, but I can't go back to DA:O and DA:A's broken combat.  It's painfully boring.

[christrek1982]

kromify wrote...

ElleMullineux wrote...

DA:A is making my brain bleed - despite having replayed my cannon DA:O I keep wanting to react to Anders like my Hawke would and it just doesn't fit. Feeling a bit JAnders about it all. :s

As for Merril and Anders, after my first play through I was a lot nicer to her, I felt guilty for supporting Anders but not her. But Merril is lucky, she had her tribe, she has Hawke and co to guide her and help her when it all goes horribly wrong. If the system hadn't so thoroughly broken and destroyed Anders he might have made other choices. But he didn't, and I think in his own way he's trying to help her.

i just can't finish it; i get bored

same with me I will one day I'm sure

[YamiSnuffles]

ElleMullineux wrote...

As for Merril and Anders, after my first play through I was a lot nicer to her, I felt guilty for supporting Anders but not her. But Merril is lucky, she had her tribe, she has Hawke and co to guide her and help her when it all goes horribly wrong. If the system hadn't so thoroughly broken and destroyed Anders he might have made other choices. But he didn't, and I think in his own way he's trying to help her.

Anders also had the disadvantage of friends who seemed to support the merge. Nate, the Warden, and others can all encourage Justice to stay in the world and find a living host. The Warden and others can encourage Anders to do something more to help mages. So, on top of Anders believing Spirits are good and thinking that would somehow make the merge less dangerous, his friends are encouraging the merge- even if it's just indirectly.

Merrill meanwhile had all her friends/rivals and clan telling her everything about what she was doing was a bad idea. I think Anders is partly giving Merrill something he didn't have- someone saying, "This is a bad idea. Trust me, I know."

Modifié par YamiSnuffles, 09 mai 2011 - 09:51 .

[christrek1982]

YamiSnuffles wrote...

ElleMullineux wrote...

As for Merril and Anders, after my first play through I was a lot nicer to her, I felt guilty for supporting Anders but not her. But Merril is lucky, she had her tribe, she has Hawke and co to guide her and help her when it all goes horribly wrong. If the system hadn't so thoroughly broken and destroyed Anders he might have made other choices. But he didn't, and I think in his own way he's trying to help her.

Anders also had the disadvantage of friends who seemed to support the merge. Nate, the Warden, and others can all encourage Justice to stay in the world and find a living host. The Warden and others can encourage Anders to do something more to help mages. So, on top of Anders believing Spirits are good and thinking that would somehow make the merge less dangerous, his friends are encouraging the merge- even if it's just indirectly.

Merrill meanwhile had all her friends/rivals and clan telling her everything about what she was doing was a bad idea. I think Anders is partly giving Merrill something he didn't have- someone saying, "This is a bad idea. Trust me, I know."

I see your point but I can also see this as acting as fuel to her drive haven't you ever been told that you can't do something and then just tryed harder to proove them wrong?

I'm not saying this is a good thing just that it can happen.

[YamiSnuffles]

christrek1982 wrote...

I see your point but I can also see this as acting as fuel to her drive haven't you ever been told that you can't do something and then just tryed harder to proove them wrong?

I'm not saying this is a good thing just that it can happen.

Well, yes, it's clearly not effective, but that doesn't mean he shouldn't try. He is in the best place to know that it's a bad idea for her to do this. Poor Merrill just doesn't have enough experience to see the wisdom in what he's saying. So she reacts like a kid being told not to do something by a parent. Plus, most of what she's been taught seems to support her, since she doesn't see the danger in Demons.

[Nyreen]

ElleMullineux wrote…

*snip*

And I get the weird and twisty impression that he liked being caught when he ran away, as if at least the Templars care enough to want him back unlike his Mum and Dad. It's making me feel terribly sad for my poor broken apostate. 

Awwwwww!  Poor Anders…he can come cry on Hawke's bosom any time he feels like it.

[Sable Rhapsody]

ElleMullineux wrote...

Oh my god, I know, the combat mechanics are breaking my heart. As is the amount of brown and the fonts. DA:2 wins for shiny newness, to the extent that I can forgive reused maps (I love the little extra bits that aren't actually mapped that you can stumble into - cheeky designers!) I wouldn't be replaying if I hadn't lost my saved games.

DA:O was oppressively brown.  Story and characters are BioWare's forte, but the gameplay and visuals have to at least be acceptably not painful and/or boring, and DA:O failed pretty hard on that front from time to time.  The Deep Roads in particular.  I remember being so relieved that the Deep Roads in DA2 were actually interesting.

[izzytizzy]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

kromify wrote...

i just can't finish it; i get bored

Yeah...replaying DA:O is not happening.  It was a more polished game than DA2 by far, with fewer cut corners, but I can't go back to DA:O and DA:A's broken combat.  It's painfully boring.

Agreed- I've tried going back and I just can't. I've gotten so used to
DA2 I can't get past the origin story without wondering why it's so
slow...