57020 réponses à ce sujet

[Loain]

@Ninche
Late? It's never to late, except for me. The birds are starting to chirp at me.
The thing I love about these types of games is just how well they do the grey areas.

-Edit- Ah! I'm at the top *panic* what do I do?



Did I do it right?

Modifié par Loain, 13 mai 2011 - 12:10 .

[Poetics124]

Ninche wrote...

Batteries wrote...

blogs.mercurynews.com/aei/2011/05/09/terrorism-and-dragon-age-ii/

I hope it's not too late to discuss this! 

First of all, is it just me, but the article seems a it too simple? Maybe it's just months of dissecting the game's everything that make it seem so, but you can't just throw a big shocking real life event parallel with the game and then not elaborate in depth. Anyway, I disapprove of any direct real-life associations with the game and its characters -it's oversimplifying things, it's drawing parallels that can't be drawn because as brilliant and exuberant as dragon age 2 is, it's still very much simple compared to the complexity of real life politics. Also, using rl examples goes both ways and leads to endless discussions, and nobody is ever right in the end because, hey, truth depends on points of view .

I think people are still very much trying to simplify things and bring them down to RIGHT and WRONG - and they seem to be trying VERY hard. I think they're missing the point - as in real life right and wrong depends on where you stand and who you support - that's where DA2's extraordinary brilliance lies as well. 

And as for seeing the results of the chantry jenga as in bodies and blood and rubble, I think that's the LEAST of what could be improved about the whole scene, and is in the end of the day - irrelevant. Just as exactly HOW MANY priestesses and innocents were in the chantry is irrelevant, and exactly how many mages turn into abominations after is irrelevant and so on and so on. I think complaining about the details or trying to justify things through them, or trying to sway meaning one way or the other through pointless details is, again, trying to oversimplify things or justify your decision to yourself. 

As glad as I am that people find Anders and his actions justified and would support him, I also think comparing him to real life persons and events does him a great disservice. It is a game, in the end, it's ok to love and support the terrorist. 

Pfft sorry for the boring walls of text, I guess I'm still way too involved 

Edit: @Purplecookie: Ohh you basically said what I wanted to explain, but better than I could 

I think comparing it to some aspects of real life is something the writers tried to do (see Alrik's final solution) but in other ways Thedas is such a different world from ours and its rules are so different it's hard to put a thumb on the morality of the game.  I'm sure most people wouldn't be going around with sword in hand and doing odd killing jobs on the behest of  strangers but that's what Hawke does and we empathize with him/her in doing so because Hawke is the player whom eyes you see through. 

I would be really curious if the game was from the point of view of Anders how many people would have thought he was so wrong it what he was doing or would have thought he was a super badass for taking out his enemies.  Or if it was Hawke that decided that the Chantry had to go?  Would it change perspective on the action?  I'm going to bet for most players it probably would.

[Ninche]

Loain wrote...

@Ninche
Late? It's never to late except for me, the birds are starting to chirp at me.
The thing I love about these types of games is just how well they do the grey areas.

Hehehe I've noticed birds here in the UK are quite nocturnal, they start between 2 - 4 in the morning and they are so bloody LOUD too Oo I feel proper pressure to be asleep before the birds wake up. 

And yes, grey areas are awesome, and people who REFUSE to see things as anything else than black and white annoy the crap out of me. "He blew up teh church lol ****ing terrorist *stab stab*" Also, why would you limit yourself and REFUSE to think about stuff? Cause honestly, once you think about the chantry jenga and you UNDERSTAND why someone would do something like that you can't HATE Anders anymore, you can still disagree, or RP as a person who opposes him and would execture him but jeez, all this hate from people who refuse to even try to understand him, is scary. 


@Poetics124: As Purplecookie said, using rl paralells to enhance the impact of the game is fine, but when responding to in-game actions we should respond with our in-game personas, not us in rl. But yes I agree with everything you said. And Anders is such an AWESOME character really - he's got a spirit and does the awesome glowy crack thing and is brave etc. etc. if it wasn't for the gay thing I'm sure people would love him so much more. And if we were to play as him the CHantry Jenga would be seen as this awesomely epic thing to do - I can imagine all these "lol ****ing terrorist" boys going "**** yeah take that chantry lol" 

Modifié par Ninche, 13 mai 2011 - 12:13 .

[darkgriever26]

purplecookie wrote...

Amondra wrote...

darkgriever26 wrote...

Amondra wrote...

Batteries wrote...

blogs.mercurynews.com/aei/2011/05/09/terrorism-and-dragon-age-ii/

I agree with someone a ways down on the comments list, bringing real life things into a game is silly.  However this person does make a valid point.  It also helps mine, no revolution was won without deaths, no greater good was acheived with out innocents blood.  Change start when you crack the foundations. 

I saw him as a freedom fighter, and I was happy to see that I was starting a revolution and not just saving the world.  It was a nice change.

Well as far as I'm concerned this is just a game. Though I also agree on some parts of it and I even think the developers made the story to reflect what is currently happening in the world. But yes well in my own point of view, as Hawke, I certainly think Anders is not a terrorist. He has his reasons. It's just that I don't like his plans which is why I somehow like him being a rival than friend. But nevertheless, my Hawke, or more like myself really, condoned him because despite cause all the chaos he can still manage to change the world without being dead.

That's my own point of view though

The bold is also why this conversation I think gets under my skin.  People forget that right there, and if you are okay with Anders actions one way or another, they start saying you would do such things in real life.  People forget it is a game and I just find it sad is all.  Maybe I feel so strongly because I always defending my oma and mutter from people who pass judgment before fully looking at the picture.

Sorry I don't mean the one we are having at the moment, but what I normally find myself in.  Sorry for not clarifying that.

Just jumping in here but this is one of the many reasons I love this game in that it makes the player reflect on real things. I disagree also that it's silly to think about real world issues when reflecting on situations that have occurred in a game, I think it's a great way to gauge feelings on events that are unfolding as you're playing through the story and the fact that there are real-world parallels is what, in my mind, helps to make the plot more immersive and the characters' actions understandable and relatable. Where it becomes silly (for me) is where the boundaries between real-life events blur into those presented in the game and what I mean by that is actions you endorse in a game represent your actions in real life (so basically totally agreeing with what you've said Amondra). Anders blows up the chantry in the game and you don't kill him and/or you agree that such an action was needed means that in real life you support terrorists and their destructive actions. That to me seems akin to saying Hawke running around Kirkwall stabbing people in the streets at night means you find murder perfectly acceptable and harbour desires to carry out such in reality. In the context of the game, stabbing or shooting lightning at fools is necessary, just as it might be perceived in the context of the game that the chantry being blown up was a necessary eradication of the mage/templar stalemate.

Just wanted to add my two cents is all I shall go back to staring at the Anders art now (so hypnotising)

And I certainly agree with you there I just love stories that make you think and reflect on things. O well nuff said

[highcastle]

It may be "just a game," but it's good that it's sparked this kind of debate. Everyone who says games aren't art should take a look at the conversations on this thread and elsewhere. This type of dissection over the meaning of a character's actions is something we do in lit theory all the time. And just because something's fictional doesn't mean it lacks real world value. That's one of the purposes of literary and art criticism in general. You study the implications it has on the real world.

I find few people take fantasy seriously, and fewer take gaming seriously as legitimate artforms. But that doesn't mean they can't make comments on society. And though the implications are uncomfortable, I believe the parallels to Anders' actions and other, recent and distant acts of terrorism are intentional. Does that mean if you support Anders you support terrorism? No, that would be silly. Anders' circumstances are different than what's going on in the present-day. But does it mean if you support Anders you can support those actions under specific circumstances? Does it mean terrorism can be justified? Or is it meant to question us about when we stick the terrorist label on someone versus calling them a freedom fighter or a revolutionary?

I think the fact we can ask these question and there's such an intense debate over them is a good thing. It means this game, this medium as a whole is definitely a valid artform. When you can argue over interpretation and deeper meaning, it's art.

[Heidenreich]

Loain wrote...


-Edit- Ah! I'm at the top *panic* what do I do?



Did I do it right?

NO! MODDED ANDERS IS NOT WELCOME IN HERE! HISS :crying::crying:!

Modded anders makes me cry. He's so beautiful all by himself with his nose of doom and scruffyness and strawberry blonde half-pony! Why would you mod him!



No modded anders, unless its Meredanders, obviously.

Modifié par Heidenreich, 13 mai 2011 - 12:58 .

[Camilladilla]

Heidenreich wrote...

Loain wrote...


-Edit- Ah! I'm at the top *panic* what do I do?
Did I do it right?

NO. MODDED ANDERS IS NOT WELCOME IN HERE. HISS :crying::crying:



Unless its meredanders..

It's staring into my soul

[Heidenreich]

Camilladilla wrote...

It's staring into my soul

[highcastle]

What disturbs me most about that one is the Fenris' tattoos. He's like a Fenders mpreg lovechild...

[Ninche]

I realised eysterday Varric and Anders and Isabela all have the same brown eyes. I don't know how I feel about it yet

[Heidenreich]

highcastle wrote...

What disturbs me most about that one is the Fenris' tattoos. He's like a Fenders mpreg lovechild...

I didn't even SEE the tattoos! UGH. Giving Anders face tattos is like changing Fenris' tattoos to Dalish style and giving him black(or no) hair.

Why ANYONE sees the need to change the art that is the DA2 companions is beyond me. That's like taking a giant steaming poo on A Starry Night!


I get the twins hair-color mods, I get armor mods (slightly, and only for hawke), I get the "hawke appearance" mods.. but WHY would you change the companions! WHYYYYY :crying:

Ninche wrote...

I realised eysterday Varric and Anders and Isabela all have the same brown eyes. I don't know how I feel about it yet

Amber-brown eyes are very common. It doesn't suprise me that the blondies have amber eyes. I think Bela's eyes should be darker to match her darker-ness, but again, Amber-brown's the most common eye color


***(I would never mod her eyes just because I think they'd look better darker. Ever. Isabela is art, and you don't mess with other people's art!)

Modifié par Heidenreich, 13 mai 2011 - 01:07 .

[Camilladilla]

highcastle wrote...

What disturbs me most about that one is the Fenris' tattoos. He's like a Fenders mpreg lovechild...

Don't start putting ideas into people's heads.

[YamiSnuffles]

Ninche wrote...

I realised eysterday Varric and Anders and Isabela all have the same brown eyes. I don't know how I feel about it yet

Do they? Izzy's eyes always seemed more golden to me, but maybe that's just the way her skin tone sets off her eye color.

As for Varric and Anders... yeah, those two weird me out a little. It's one of the reasons I'm glad Anders has dark eyebrows/stubble, because Varric has a really similar hairstyle but he has blonde facial hair. Which is also why I'm glad Anders doesn't still have an earring. It's like Anders and dwarf Anders... or Varric and human Varric. Going by that, I'll assume Anders is also hiding a mane of chest hair.

[purplecookie]

Ninche wrote...

I realised eysterday Varric and Anders and Isabela all have the same brown eyes. I don't know how I feel about it yet

Something I realised recently that I found a bit disturbing was that Anders has the same eyebrows as... wait actually, should probably keep that to myself!

Here's a Happy Anders pics instead

[darkgriever26]

ElleMullineux wrote...

highcastle wrote...

It may be "just a game," but it's good that it's sparked this kind of debate. Everyone who says games aren't art should take a look at the conversations on this thread and elsewhere. This type of dissection over the meaning of a character's actions is something we do in lit theory all the time. And just because something's fictional doesn't mean it lacks real world value. That's one of the purposes of literary and art criticism in general. You study the implications it has on the real world.

I find few people take fantasy seriously, and fewer take gaming seriously as legitimate artforms. But that doesn't mean they can't make comments on society. And though the implications are uncomfortable, I believe the parallels to Anders' actions and other, recent and distant acts of terrorism are intentional. Does that mean if you support Anders you support terrorism? No, that would be silly. Anders' circumstances are different than what's going on in the present-day. But does it mean if you support Anders you can support those actions under specific circumstances? Does it mean terrorism can be justified? Or is it meant to question us about when we stick the terrorist label on someone versus calling them a freedom fighter or a revolutionary?

I think the fact we can ask these question and there's such an intense debate over them is a good thing. It means this game, this medium as a whole is definitely a valid artform. When you can argue over interpretation and deeper meaning, it's art.

And 100% this, realising that you agree with Anders makes you feel uncomfortable because it makes you adjust your world view - if you could agree with this, there must be sets of circumstances where you would agree with, and I think for the most part people don't like to look at that part of themselves. Which again is something I love with this game. BW force you to choose. You can still let him go, but there are implications, and you still have to pick a side - unless you suddenly remember there is such a thing as an off button and if you're that offended you don't have to carry on playing. (Except that the devs & writers have made this the gaming equivilant of crack).

I think there is a portion of the gamers out there that either don't want their games to be this involving, or are unable to understand/interpret on a higher level. (We do all seem to be awesomely intelligent and wonderful people for the most part - even if I do say so myself).

For the 1st bold sentence: Oh yes it really did made me feel uncomfortable in my first playthrough because I do not see violence as a solution plus I find it hard to pick sides at first. Although there are some exceptions and I fully understand that your choices will always have certain consequences. But anyway in the end, I began to understand it more and more which made me love the story more than I used to.

For the 2nd bold sentence: True, there are some who cannot accept that because it contradicts their personal beliefs. But hey, BW makes you deepen your understanding in situations such as this. Although sadly some people cannot understand that and take this game too personally. Oh well they just annoy themselves.

By the way, yes I also agree with highcastle...it's art. I love how games such as this get you involve in it but sadly some people just go overboard I guess. Oh well like I said, they just annoy themselves.

Edit: WHOA! So many new post after I've finished writing this one haha!

Modifié par darkgriever26, 13 mai 2011 - 01:15 .

[Threeparts]

YamiSnuffles wrote...

Ninche wrote...

I realised eysterday Varric and Anders and Isabela all have the same brown eyes. I don't know how I feel about it yet

Do they? Izzy's eyes always seemed more golden to me, but maybe that's just the way her skin tone sets off her eye color.

As for Varric and Anders... yeah, those two weird me out a little. It's one of the reasons I'm glad Anders has dark eyebrows/stubble, because Varric has a really similar hairstyle but he has blonde facial hair. Which is also why I'm glad Anders doesn't still have an earring. It's like Anders and dwarf Anders... or Varric and human Varric. Going by that, I'll assume Anders is also hiding a mane of chest hair.

Yes, the resemblance between Varric and Anders has always been one of those ... things. Dwarf and human, separated at birth! I kind of wish there'd been a banter between the two of them concerning how they wear their hair in the same style. It's obvious Anders changed it from the full ponytail after seeing how women flock to Varric.

And I have little to contribute to it, but I love the "video games as art" conversation. People seem to think that because games are 'mindless' entertainment that they can't have depth, but if a film or a book can be art, so can an interactive story, which is exactly what many games are. It's a story that asks questions and poses problems, which you must find solutions to, and those solutions aren't easy or simple, and they can push you to think about issues that don't have clear answers. More than that, they rouse emotions, both positive and negative, and isn't the goal of art to make the viewer feel something?

[Ninche]

Threeparts wrote...

-snip-

Yes, the resemblance between Varric and Anders has always been one of those ... things. Dwarf and human, separated at birth! I kind of wish there'd been a banter between the two of them concerning how they wear their hair in the same style. It's obvious Anders changed it from the full ponytail after seeing how women flock to Varric.

The funny thing is, I didn't even realise they were so similar until my boyfriend pointed it out - I reaaally don't know what's up with that: I doubt the devs could have made them look alike without realising and if it was on purpose - why? Maybe Anders never existed at all and Varric made him up for Cassandra and based his looks on himself? Maybe it was Varric who blew up the chantry wearing a robe and waving a stick around and Anders is made up to cover his tracks. Oooh the endless speculations! 

And I have little to contribute to it, but I love the "video games as art" conversation. People seem to think that because games are 'mindless' entertainment that they can't have depth, but if a film or a book can be art, so can an interactive story, which is exactly what many games are. It's a story that asks questions and poses problems, which you must find solutions to, and those solutions aren't easy or simple, and they can push you to think about issues that don't have clear answers. More than that, they rouse emotions, both positive and negative, and isn't the goal of art to make the viewer feel something?

It is indeed, I'm possibly about to write a dissertation on this, I'm just slightly scared it will kill the joy of DA2 if I have to disect it academically. And it will bring the whole realism in art debate on a whole new level I'm not sure I want to pioneer. 

[darkgriever26]

Ninche wrote...

It is indeed, I'm possibly about to write a dissertation on this, I'm just slightly scared it will kill the joy of DA2 if I have to disect it academically. And it will bring the whole realism in art debate on a whole new level I'm not sure I want to pioneer. 

Hmmm...well if you will do that I'll definitely read that one and might give my own views on that as well

[berelinde]

Ninche wrote...

I realised eysterday Varric and Anders and Isabela all have the same brown eyes. I don't know how I feel about it yet

It doesn't bother me. Lots of people have brown eyes. Now, if the shape of those eyes was the same...

But yeah, I do wish Varric and Anders did not look so similar. I'm forever clicking on the wrong portrait. I accidentally dented Anders one time because I clicked on his portrait and asked him to disarm a trap... which he obediently stepped on. Oops.

It is getting better, though. They do have different portrait backgrounds. Blue, soothing, appropriate to spirit healers. Green, like money, appropriate to business-minded dwarves. Or is that green, like healing herbs, and blue, like the blood of dwarven nobility? Time for a new memnonic mnemonic memory aid.

[kromify]

green like american money!

[berelinde]

kromify wrote...

green like american money!

Yup. If you live in a country that doesn't have boring green money, you'll have to figure out how to tell them apart on your own. Apart from the chin, obviously.

[ipgd]

We should be comparing it to real life. DA2 is purposefully set up to be culturally relevant and mirror those kinds of events. It's not silly at all; we should be taking games more seriously, not less.

What does need to be avoided is getting so personally involved you can't step back and look at it any deeper than the superficial similarities. Anders is by all accounts a terrorist, and that's certainly a not-so-good thing, but it's also a very interesting thing worth discussing. Letting yourself become blinded by a sense of obligate rage is a bit of a waste, I think.