57020 réponses à ce sujet

[Evilnor]

Ok, call me stupid, but where do you get the naked lady staff? That just has waaaaaay too much potential.

[Ryzaki]

@Lucretia: It didn't seem easy to me. He seemed heartbroken to do it. (which makes me want to kick him in the face when he later sacrifices himself for the female PC. What about your duty to be king *then* jerkwad?) At least he doesn't do anything stupid when you leave him at the gates. I mean...his voice the way he averted his eyes. Nothing about that decision was easy. He just chose to do a quick, clean break. 

Elven bride probably would've resulted in him losing the throne or the female PC ending up dead in a ditch. Either that or civil war in a country that didn't need it. That wouldn't have ended well.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 14 mai 2011 - 09:42 .

[ashyraine]

Evilnor wrote...

Ok, call me stupid, but where do you get the naked lady staff? That just has waaaaaay too much potential.

It's in the mage (or you can get the whole pack with warrior and rogue too) item pack DLC. It was well worth my 5 bucks for the whole shebang just to see the end scene lol

edit for almost but not quite top (hey kinda like hawke)

http://cloud.steampo...7B2B052802CC67/

Modifié par ashyraine, 14 mai 2011 - 09:42 .

[Evilnor]

Thanks! Should make my next playthrough much more interesting . . .

[Lucretia]

Ryzaki wrote...

@Lucretia: It didn't seem easy to me. He seemed heartbroken to do it. (which makes me want to kick him in the face when he later sacrifices himself for the female PC. What about your duty to be king *then* jerkwad?) At least he doesn't do anything stupid when you leave him at the gates. I mean...his voice the way he averted his eyes. Nothing about that decision was easy. He just chose to do a quick, clean break. 

Elven bride probably would've resulted in him losing the throne of the female PC ending up dead in a ditch. Either that or civil war in a country that didn't need it. That wouldn't have ended well.

I wrote a lot of short stories after I finished the game, one of them was about Alistair leaving Shaldrissa Surana after lansmeeet. She was very angry with him so she started sleeping with Zevran after that even though she didn't have any deep feelings for him. This drove Alistair crazy and he ended up begging her to forgive him, asking her to be his bride against all odds. LOL

Like I said before, I am a hopeless romantic.

[mellifera]

Well, you can be a hopeless romantic and write whatever you want in fanfic. I just don't get blaming the character and calling him racist for being more of a realist in such a situation. It's not his fault, it's politics and a centuries-old system he can't really eradicate on his own.

Modifié par yukidama, 14 mai 2011 - 09:54 .

[Ryzaki]

Lucretia wrote...
I wrote a lot of short stories after I finished the game, one of them was about Alistair leaving Shaldrissa Surana after lansmeeet. She was very angry with him so she started sleeping with Zevran after that even though she didn't have any deep feelings for him. This drove Alistair crazy and he ended up begging her to forgive him, asking her to be his bride against all odds. LOL

Like I said before, I am a hopeless romantic.

Sure. But Alistair wasn't being a racist in that situation. Just being a realist. If you want a close to happy ending just become his mistress. Alistair doesn't marry anyone in DA2 (at least its never mentioned) so your PC would be wife in all but name .

And if you want political power just become his Chancellor. 

[Lucretia]

by the way does anyone know if Alistair mentions the warden being his mistress, lover whatever when he visits Kirkwall in act 3? he mentions the queen as "old ball and chains" but I am not sure if he refers to her if they are not married.

[Camilladilla]

Lucretia wrote...

What I didn't like was, the fact he contradicted with himself by saying he didn't want to involve Hawke but at the same time he totally DID involve her by getting her to help him. I find that completely dishonest. II can see why he never told her about what he planned to do, even though Hawke agreed with his point of view on mages.

If he didn't want to involve her, then he should have collected the damn stuff by himself. Hawke ended up being half guilty in the situation and he had to put her in a situation like this.

His warnings would make sense if he just left Hawke out of this and took the whole responsibility of the act himself.

And he in fact does take responsiblity for himself if you tell him no.

Well of course it was dishonest, but come on, he warned you from the start that he's not a good person to start a relationship with. It seems kind of funny to me to be angry at someone for not meeting your expectations for romance when he outright tells you on several occasions that it will not be all fluffy kittens and unicorns farting rainbows with him and he even gives you several opportunities to back out.

Hell I romanced him with an m!Hawke and didn't get half as many warnings as a f!Hawke/Anders romance would about the tragiporn, but I went for it anyway since I love the drama.

And this whole having a cause that's more important the person you love thing, I find it realistic rather than heartbreaking, but to each their own.

Modifié par Camilladilla, 14 mai 2011 - 10:06 .

[Ryzaki]

Lucretia wrote...

by the way does anyone know if Alistair mentions the warden being his mistress, lover whatever when he visits Kirkwall in act 3? he mentions the queen as "old ball and chains" but I am not sure if he refers to her if they are not married.

Yes he did my mistress. Teagan told him that the WC was heading back to Denerim and Alistair was excited to get back (and made sure that Anora wasn't aware that the female PC was coming back XD).

[highcastle]

I for one appreciate how both the Alistair and Anders romance arcs were handled. As others have mentioned, Al was being realistic at the culmination of his plot line. Thedas is not a fairytale kingdom. It's very political, and the fact of the matter is an elven or dwarven or mage bride would not fly. Is it racist or classist? Yes, to a degree. But it's the flaws are in the system, not Alistair himself, and you can't just change a system by wishing it were otherwise (see: Anders' entire plot line in DA2).

And Anders warns the PC against romancing him. He makes it very clear he has another purpose in Kirkwall. It doesn't stop him from utterly falling for Hawke, of course, but his cause will always be more important. I for one like this about him. It might not be classically "romantic," but personally I like that Hawke's not the most important thing in his life. That makes for a rather shallow character if one person can become their entire world. Andes is fighting for something larger than himself. And that's romantic enough for me.

[Threeparts]

Lucretia wrote...

Putting passion for a cause above love for someone is heart breaking; thats what I'm saying.

I've seen this attitude in a few places now and, quite honestly, I find it deeply confusing.

Love is not the most important thing in the world. It's a wonderful thing if you can find it, but it's not the most important.
Anders wants to free every mage in Thedas from being locked up by the Chantry, from being abused by templars, from being feared and hated by people for simply being born who they are. He wants to help hundreds, thousands of people. He wants to help them live happy, normal lives.
Should he ignore the way they're treated so he can go off and play happy families with his lover?

He could, certainly. Maker knows plenty of people do. It's easy to ignore a situation, pretend you're not involved, close your eyes and cover your ears.

The thing that makes Anders a good man is that he won't, he can't ignore that. He wasn't being paid for running his clinic in Darktown: he did it because he couldn't be a healer and not help those people. He couldn't turn his back on them, just as he couldn't turn his back on the Warden being attacked by Darkspawn, just as he didn't refuse to help Bann Ferrenly when he first escaped from the Circle.

If he chose to ignore those people just to be with Hawke, I would think less of him for it.

[Ninche]

I personally found the whole fighting for a grand cause much bigger than any individual's life or desires extremely attractive in Anders as a character. I'd also say that Anders and Alistair are quite different in some ways: Alistair seems to fight to get the Warden to love him but doesn't really fight to keep her afterwards, Anders on the other hand denies his desires and love for YEARS before finally admitting his feelings, and afterwards becomes a "devoted lover" and repeatedly assures Hawke of his feelings and his/her grand role in his life. And of course my favourite line sums it all up:

You are the most importaint thing in my life. But some things matter more than my life, more than either of us.

And that is a pretty darn powerful declaration of love, he is essentially saying that he loves you more than anything but he needs to keep fighting, his cause has nothing to do with you - Anders the man cares about you more than anything in the world, but Anders the symbol, the legend - needs to do what he finds necessary. It's up to you to decide if that's enough for your Hawke or not.

Also I disagree that Anders is gone and it's all Justice by the end of Act 3 - if Anders was gone then he wouldn't give a **** about Hawke any longer, it's that love that proves Anders is still in there, and still sane enough to think and want for himself. The difference between rivalmance and friendmance is that in the first he happens to disagree with Justice's methods and dislike his control, and in the latter he agrees with him and they act as one. His love for Hawke remains the same in either scenario - that's also extremely romantic. Or maybe I'm just crazy like that

*Gazes lovingly at Threeparts' and Highcastle's posts* 

Modifié par Ninche, 14 mai 2011 - 10:19 .

[Ryzaki]

Even though I rival Anders I have no issue with him placing his goals above Hawke (what I take issue with is the goals themselves and how he goes about them). Maker knows my Hawke will (and some of them have) cut Anders down for getting in the way of their goals. Love or no. And they'd do it again and again if Anders' stops them from doing what must be done. They love him...but that's not going to make them stop from doing what they see as necessary. 

But luckily for them Anders understands that he needs to tone it down a bit and even though he ends up being hijacked by Vengeance my Hawkes won't kill him. Out of love and because he's not standing in their way. They'll try to kill Vengeance/Justice in a heartbeat because that creature is standing in their way. 

When Anders loses himself completely is the day his body will be struck down. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 14 mai 2011 - 10:19 .

[Lucretia]

Something else that I questioned about Anders and Justice was, why we never had the option to fight the spirit in the fade and free Anders ; just like we did to Connor without him being hurt at all? Anders accepts that his joining with the spirit was in fact a poor decision, this could have been an option for him to get rid of Justice. Or maybe he was lying about that too, he was nonetheless OK with what he became.

[Ninche]

Lucretia wrote...

Something else that I questioned about Anders and Justice was, why we never had the option to fight the spirit in the fade and free Anders ; just like we did to Connor without him being hurt at all? Anders accepts that his joining with the spirit was in fact a poor decision, this could have been an option for him to get rid of Justice. Or maybe he was lying about that too, he was nonetheless OK with what he became.

We've probably had this discussion a bunch of times already, the general opinion is that there's a difference between Connor's case and Anders' case:

Firstly Connor's demon was a DEMON as opposed to a SPIRIT, secondly, Connor's demon controlled him from the fade and hadn't possessed his body yet = moved him around like a puppet as opposed to diving in and turning into an ugly abomination. In Anders' case Justice was already outside the fade trapped in a physical body - he no longer had any form in the fade you could fight or kill - and apprently he can move from physical body to physical body but it is unclear whether he can return to the Fade even though Anders himself mentiones he would if his physical host dies. 

Modifié par Ninche, 14 mai 2011 - 10:25 .

[highcastle]

Ninche wrote...

Also I disagree that Anders is gone and it's all Justice by the end of Act 3 - if Anders was gone then he wouldn't give a **** about Hawke any longer, it's that love that proves Anders is still in there, and still sane enough to think and want for himself. The difference between rivalmance and friendmance is that in the first he happens to disagree with Justice's methods and dislike his control, and in the latter he agrees with him and they act as one. His love for Hawke remains the same in either scenario - that's also extremely romantic. Or maybe I'm just crazy like that

I knew I forgot to mention something in my post! This, exactly this.

Justice does not completely overwhelm Anders. On the friendship path, their goals are intertwined, so there is no conflict and they pretty much act as one. On rivalry (and here I'm speaking only from what I've seen in videos because I agree with Anders too much to rival him), he and Justice are at odds. Despite this and despite the blackouts Anders has been having, he knows what he did in the Chantry. It's not a complete surprise to him, the way it would be if Justice were really the one pulling the strings. On a very fundamental level, Anders made a choice. Some people are uncomfortable with that choice and try to excuse it away by saying Justice made him do it. Justice was a contributing factor, I'm sure, but that was Anders' choice.

[Ryzaki]

Lucretia wrote...

Something else that I questioned about Anders and Justice was, why we never had the option to fight the spirit in the fade and free Anders ; just like we did to Connor without him being hurt at all? Anders accepts that his joining with the spirit was in fact a poor decision, this could have been an option for him to get rid of Justice. Or maybe he was lying about that too, he was nonetheless OK with what he became.

Connor's demon was controlling him from the Fade. 

Anders on the other hand has Justice merged with him. I believe their two souls are entwined and you can't seperate them without severely scarring (if not outright killing) Anders. (Which I could deal with the severe scarring personally). Justice is physically inside of Anders' body. 

Though frankly I don't don't fully buy that "we can't seperate." thing. I'm more of the opinion that they don't want to seperate at first and when Anders does want to seperate he has his hands fully wrestling control from Vengeance to focus on ways to get rid of him (ways that if even possible would probably require lots of concentration and research). 

As for Justice blowing up the Chantry. I buy it. Anders is too horrified for it not to have been Justce. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 14 mai 2011 - 10:28 .

[Threeparts]

Lucretia wrote...

Something else that I questioned about Anders and Justice was, why we never had the option to fight the spirit in the fade and free Anders ; just like we did to Connor without him being hurt at all? Anders accepts that his joining with the spirit was in fact a poor decision, this could have been an option for him to get rid of Justice. Or maybe he was lying about that too, he was nonetheless OK with what he became.

I've addressed this in the FAQ, but the difference is that in Connor's case, the demon was controlling him from where it lived in the Fade. It had a psychic connection with the boy that we could follow to the source to defeat it.

In Anders' case, the demon is physically inside his body, mind and soul. It inhabits him. It's no longer in the Fade. Although you can speak to J/V during Night Terrors, it still takes the shape of Anders, not that of the spirit we first encountered in the Blackmarsh. This is because J/V is now part of Anders, an aspect of him, not something physically separate. Hence why Anders becomes angry with you if you "kill" J/V during Night Terrors - you were fighting him as well.

[Lucretia]

Threeparts wrote...

I've seen this attitude in a few places now and, quite honestly, I find it deeply confusing.

Love is not the most important thing in the world. It's a wonderful thing if you can find it, but it's not the most important.
Anders wants to free every mage in Thedas from being locked up by the Chantry, from being abused by templars, from being feared and hated by people for simply being born who they are. He wants to help hundreds, thousands of people. He wants to help them live happy, normal lives.
Should he ignore the way they're treated so he can go off and play happy families with his lover?

He could, certainly. Maker knows plenty of people do. It's easy to ignore a situation, pretend you're not involved, close your eyes and cover your ears.

The thing that makes Anders a good man is that he won't, he can't ignore that. He wasn't being paid for running his clinic in Darktown: he did it because he couldn't be a healer and not help those people. He couldn't turn his back on them, just as he couldn't turn his back on the Warden being attacked by Darkspawn, just as he didn't refuse to help Bann Ferrenly when he first escaped from the Circle.

If he chose to ignore those people just to be with Hawke, I would think less of him for it.

I never said I would prefer Anders to abandon his cause for Hawke. In fact, my Hawke had the same point of view with him on almost everything, she even ended up running away with him.

I just pointed out that otherwise, Anders romance is very heart breaking in general.

Like I said before, the reason I was pissed at Anders was he contradicted with himself when he said he didn't want to involve Hawke but he totally did when he emotionally abused her to get her help him. (saying stuff like "IF YOU LOVE ME, YOU"LL DO THIS FOR ME ETC.) If he really didn't want to involve her in the situation, he never should have asked for her help in the first place.

Other than this, I love Anders and his personality.

[Lucretia]

Ninche wrote...

We've probably had this discussion a bunch of times already, the general opinion is that there's a difference between Connor's case and Anders' case:

Firstly Connor's demon was a DEMON as opposed to a SPIRIT, secondly, Connor's demon controlled him from the fade and hadn't possessed his body yet = moved him around like a puppet as opposed to diving in and turning into an ugly abomination. In Anders' case Justice was already outside the fade trapped in a physical body - he no longer had any form in the fade you could fight or kill - and apprently he can move from physical body to physical body but it is unclear whether he can return to the Fade even though Anders himself mentiones he would if his physical host dies. 

Yeah that makes sense. Thank you.

[highcastle]

Lucretia wrote...

Something else that I questioned about Anders and Justice was, why we never had the option to fight the spirit in the fade and free Anders ; just like we did to Connor without him being hurt at all? Anders accepts that his joining with the spirit was in fact a poor decision, this could have been an option for him to get rid of Justice. Or maybe he was lying about that too, he was nonetheless OK with what he became.

Anders only accepts that merging with Justice was a mistake if you rival him. On the friendship path, he laments his decision after Dissent, but ultimately the merger is strengthened. As others have said, he and Justice don't have the same arrangement as Connor and the desire demon. They are physically one. Mentally...it's not really clear. Anders believes they are one, but we see on several occasions Justice can still exert himself. Clearly there is some amount of separation, but it only becomes clear when Anders disagrees with something Justice wants.

As far as the lying thing goes...if you're talking about the stuff with the potion, then yes it's a lie. He says what he thinks he needs to say to secure Hawke's help without raising too many questions. It's not a great moment for him.  But he's not a great person. He has lofty goals and they're even noble to an extent (if you agree with him; again, I do), but he's willing to do some very troubling things to see them succeed. This is a core facet to his personality, and it's one of the things that makes him most interesting to me.

[erilben]

Ninche wrote...

Lucretia wrote...

Something else that I questioned about Anders and Justice was, why we never had the option to fight the spirit in the fade and free Anders ; just like we did to Connor without him being hurt at all? Anders accepts that his joining with the spirit was in fact a poor decision, this could have been an option for him to get rid of Justice. Or maybe he was lying about that too, he was nonetheless OK with what he became.

We've probably had this discussion a bunch of times already, the general opinion is that there's a difference between Connor's case and Anders' case:

Firstly Connor's demon was a DEMON as opposed to a SPIRIT, secondly, Connor's demon controlled him from the fade and hadn't possessed his body yet = moved him around like a puppet as opposed to diving in and turning into an ugly abomination. In Anders' case Justice was already outside the fade trapped in a physical body - he no longer had any form in the fade you could fight or kill - and apprently he can move from physical body to physical body but it is unclear whether he can return to the Fade even though Anders himself mentiones he would if his physical host dies. 

Didn't Fiona become an ugly abomination and then she was freed in a similar way as Connor? I never read the Calling, but that's what I heard anyway.

 

[Ryzaki]

Lucretia wrote...
I never said I would prefer Anders to abandon his cause for Hawke. In fact, my Hawke had the same point of view with him on almost everything, she even ended up running away with him.

I just pointed out that otherwise, Anders romance is very heart breaking in general.

Like I said before, the reason I was pissed at Anders was he contradicted with himself when he said he didn't want to involve Hawke but he totally did when he emotionally abused her to get her help him. (saying stuff like "IF YOU LOVE ME, YOU"LL DO THIS FOR ME ETC.) If he really didn't want to involve her in the situation, he never should have asked for her help in the first place.

Agreed on the bolded. That was pretty wishy washy. "Don't get involved...but I need your help getting X, Y and Z and I'd only trust you with this!" 

It is a pretty giant "Eh?" moment. 

 

As for the underlined...that is pretty grey. More emotionally manipulative than abusive though. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 14 mai 2011 - 11:11 .

[Camilladilla]

erilben wrote...

Didn't Fiona become an ugly abomination and then she was freed in a similar way as Connor? I never read the Calling, but that's what I heard anyway.

 

I don't recall Fiona being possessed at all, but then again it's been a while. Regardless if she did get possessed, she turned out pretty well for herself by the end of the series.