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[upsettingshorts]

dpMeggers wrote...

Do you have some kind of signal that goes off when terrorism comes up in this thread? Like a giant mustache appears in the sky and you know the people of The Anders Thread need you to come and...argue?

I agree though, that all choices Hawke can make in that scenario sort of suck. Unless you kill Anders and then defend the mages I suppose. Because then you're not supporting terrorism. Sort of.

Basically.  People tell me. 

Also yeah, but in terms of public perceptions Hawke basically endorses the actions of one side or the other I think.  Whether or not the truth of his/her choice is more reluctant and they killed Anders or never trusted Meredith even before she turned on Hawke isn't something that I believe most people would know about.  Cassandra, a Seeker of the Chantry whose business it is to know these things certainly doesn't.

[sable-eyed-lily]

dpMeggers wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Meredith is the police state. Anders is terrorism. You're supporting something pretty awful no matter what you choose. That's the point.

Do you have some kind of signal that goes off when terrorism comes up in this thread? Like a giant mustache appears in the sky and you know the people of The Anders Thread need you to come and...argue?

I agree though, that all choices Hawke can make in that scenario sort of suck. Unless you kill Anders and then defend the mages I suppose. Because then you're not supporting terrorism. Sort of.

I still say that Anders should've jenga'd the Templar area.. Although he would have also killed Orsino since his office is right across from Meredith's. Then again, the guy was in cahoots with Quentin who carved up Mama Hawke... 

I still get pissed off when Meredith claims she MUST annul the Circle because the "People will demand blood." I tried to do that in Awakening, but I got the whole, "if you give into the mob, you're ruled by the mob" lecture. WHY COULDN'T MY HAWKE HAVE GIVEN THAT SPEECH?!?!?

[Jean]

sable-eyed-lily wrote...

dpMeggers wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Meredith is the police state. Anders is terrorism. You're supporting something pretty awful no matter what you choose. That's the point.

Do you have some kind of signal that goes off when terrorism comes up in this thread? Like a giant mustache appears in the sky and you know the people of The Anders Thread need you to come and...argue?

I agree though, that all choices Hawke can make in that scenario sort of suck. Unless you kill Anders and then defend the mages I suppose. Because then you're not supporting terrorism. Sort of.

I still say that Anders should've jenga'd the Templar area.. Although he would have also killed Orsino since his office is right across from Meredith's. Then again, the guy was in cahoots with Quentin who carved up Mama Hawke... 

I still get pissed off when Meredith claims she MUST annul the Circle because the "People will demand blood." I tried to do that in Awakening, but I got the whole, "if you give into the mob, you're ruled by the mob" lecture. WHY COULDN'T MY HAWKE HAVE GIVEN THAT SPEECH?!?!?

Destroying the templar barracks would not of had the same effect or acheived what he was trying to spark compared to blowing up the chantry.

[ipgd]

sable-eyed-lily wrote...

I still say that Anders should've jenga'd the Templar area.. Although he would have also killed Orsino since his office is right across from Meredith's. Then again, the guy was in cahoots with Quentin who carved up Mama Hawke... 

I still get pissed off when Meredith claims she MUST annul the Circle because the "People will demand blood." I tried to do that in Awakening, but I got the whole, "if you give into the mob, you're ruled by the mob" lecture. WHY COULDN'T MY HAWKE HAVE GIVEN THAT SPEECH?!?!?

That wasn't what he was trying to do, though. Killing Meredith or the templars wasn't the point. He wasn't trying to solve the local Kirkwall problem, he was making a direct symbolic attack against a centuries old cultural institution. Infact, it was contingent on Meredith being alive, since he knew she would invoke the Right the moment she had the legal authority to do so and spark a much larger conflict that would spread elsewhere. If anyone else were left at the head of it they would have tried to enforce control and a return to the status quo, which is exactly what Anders did not want.

Modifié par ipgd, 16 mai 2011 - 11:02 .

[upsettingshorts]

Possibly, but it also wouldn't really have been terrorism either as the Templar barracks is a demonstrably hard target.  Although some might still argue that it was, as the bombings of the Marine barracks in Beirut in 1983 were labeled just that by the US government.

It'd be an act of war, for certain though. And I don't doubt Meredith would have responded in exactly the same way. So it might have played out much the same. The problem is that Elthina would still be alive, and in a position to prevent Meredith from carrying out the Right of Annulment. So, blowing up the Chantry not only provoked Meredith's reaction (part 1) it also removed the mechanism through which her reaction could have been prevented, killing her superior Elthina (part 2).

There's also what ipgd says.  Anders knew what he was doing.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 16 mai 2011 - 11:04 .

[dpMeggers]

sable-eyed-lily wrote...

I still say that Anders should've jenga'd the Templar area.. Although he would have also killed Orsino since his office is right across from Meredith's. Then again, the guy was in cahoots with Quentin who carved up Mama Hawke... 

I still get pissed off when Meredith claims she MUST annul the Circle because the "People will demand blood." I tried to do that in Awakening, but I got the whole, "if you give into the mob, you're ruled by the mob" lecture. WHY COULDN'T MY HAWKE HAVE GIVEN THAT SPEECH?!?!?

I think that's just Meredith trying to bully Hawke into doing what she wants, or it's possibly a weak justification she's using because "Because I want to!" won't fly. Meredith doesn't care about what the people want. Meredith cares about what Meredith wants. And what Meredith wants is nothing less than the obliteration of Kirkwall's circle.

[sable-eyed-lily]

ipgd wrote...

sable-eyed-lily wrote...

I still say that Anders should've jenga'd the Templar area.. Although he would have also killed Orsino since his office is right across from Meredith's. Then again, the guy was in cahoots with Quentin who carved up Mama Hawke... 

I still get pissed off when Meredith claims she MUST annul the Circle because the "People will demand blood." I tried to do that in Awakening, but I got the whole, "if you give into the mob, you're ruled by the mob" lecture. WHY COULDN'T MY HAWKE HAVE GIVEN THAT SPEECH?!?!?

That wasn't what he was trying to do, though. Killing Meredith or the templars wasn't the point. He wasn't trying to solve the local Kirkwall problem, he was making a direct symbolic attack against a centuries old cultural institution. Infact, it was contingent on Meredith being alive, since he knew she would invoke the Right the moment she had the legal authority to do so and spark a much larger conflict that would spread elsewhere. If anyone else were left at the head of it they would have tried to enforce control and a return to the status quo, which is exactly what Anders did not want.

Oh... that's a good point... Damn! Now there goes my argument out the window. Although I think Meredith would have still declared war on the Circle even if Anders had targeted the Templar Quarters. But then you have Elthina who would have stopped her again... And now I've come to a full circle (pun unintended) so ignore this entire post please.

[Ninche]

The Chantry jenga is somewhere inbetween terrorism (if we accept the widely spread understanding of the term which means striking at the public to spread terror) and an act of war - which would mean striking at a facility or w/e with the purpose of weakening the enemy's forces or taking out a leader etc. Since Elthina IS in fact in charge of both the knight commander and the first enchanter and therefore responsible for their actions and rightsetc. (as much as she would have liked not to be) she's not just an innocent old lady in a church. Exactly as people above said already: she represented this fake compromise and needed to be removed so people would finally be forced to take sides and act.

To be honest I am slightly annoyed at the time jump post chantry jenga. Would the bull**** of one city somewhere in Thedas be enough to make ALL mages rise together? And why would they suddenly stop disagreeing on their believes and act as one? I hope a DLC or expansion for the 3 years after the jenga explains that because it seems pretty unrealistic.

[ipgd]

Ninche wrote...

To be honest I am slightly annoyed at the time jump post chantry jenga. Would the bull**** of one city somewhere in Thedas be enough to make ALL mages rise together? And why would they suddenly stop disagreeing on their believes and act as one? I hope a DLC or expansion for the 3 years after the jenga explains that because it seems pretty unrealistic.

Because of exactly the reason why Kirkwall imploded in the first place. The events there would spread ideas of revolution; the templars would crack down to quash sedition, exacerbating the perceived need for libertarian/resolutionist sentiment due to harsher treatment. Eventually, everything would reach a breaking point where all of the mages would have to cooperate because it's either that or death. How many mages do you think will be squabbling amongst themselves when the Right starts being called en masse?

[leggywillow]

ipgd wrote...
Infact, it was contingent on Meredith being alive, since he knew she would invoke the Right the moment she had the legal authority to do so and spark a much larger conflict that would spread elsewhere.

Keep in mind that Meredith already sent for the Right.... or the right to invoke the Right.  Whatever.  I'm assuming that the templar yelling about it in the Gallows for all to hear in Act 3 is more for the player's benefit than indication of just how public the knowledge was, but Anders supposedly has connections.  It wouldn't surprise me if he already knew about it.

That doesn't change the facts of what Anders did, but it does add a very interesting twist that a lot of people seem to forget about.  (Hasn't it been confirmed that it wasn't just a glitch?)

[sable-eyed-lily]

leggywillow wrote...

ipgd wrote...
Infact, it was contingent on Meredith being alive, since he knew she would invoke the Right the moment she had the legal authority to do so and spark a much larger conflict that would spread elsewhere.

Keep in mind that Meredith already sent for the Right.... or the right to invoke the Right.  Whatever.  I'm assuming that the templar yelling about it in the Gallows for all to hear in Act 3 is more for the player's benefit than indication of just how public the knowledge was, but Anders supposedly has connections.  It wouldn't surprise me if he already knew about it.

That doesn't change the facts of what Anders did, but it does add a very interesting twist that a lot of people seem to forget about.  (Hasn't it been confirmed that it wasn't just a glitch?)

Wait.. When did this happen??? How did I miss that part? I thought it was more of an OMG-The-Chantry-destroyed-Let's-kill-some-mages sort of reaction... I need the replay immediately! Bye! 

[ipgd]

sable-eyed-lily wrote...

leggywillow wrote...

ipgd wrote...
Infact, it was contingent on Meredith being alive, since he knew she would invoke the Right the moment she had the legal authority to do so and spark a much larger conflict that would spread elsewhere.

Keep in mind that Meredith already sent for the Right.... or the right to invoke the Right.  Whatever.  I'm assuming that the templar yelling about it in the Gallows for all to hear in Act 3 is more for the player's benefit than indication of just how public the knowledge was, but Anders supposedly has connections.  It wouldn't surprise me if he already knew about it.

That doesn't change the facts of what Anders did, but it does add a very interesting twist that a lot of people seem to forget about.  (Hasn't it been confirmed that it wasn't just a glitch?)

Wait.. When did this happen??? How did I miss that part? I thought it was more of an OMG-The-Chantry-destroyed-Let's-kill-some-mages sort of reaction... I need the replay immediately! Bye! 

Kerras said she was petitioning the Divine for the Right, I believe, which implies she'd already gone to Elthina and been denied. So, in all likelihood, he probably knew.

[Elriendel]

dpMeggers wrote...

I agree though, that all choices Hawke
can make in that scenario sort of suck. Unless you kill Anders and then
defend the mages I suppose. Because then you're not supporting
terrorism. Sort of.

Sorry for changing the subject a little, and probably you discussed this sometime before, but I found this on youtube:
Anders Sided with Templars - Rivalry Romance Ending? - Dragon Age 2
That would be another option (though it would probably suck too, I can't imagine Anders' mind after that)
Is this about the patch for Anders rivalmance I read you were waiting for?
I kinda feel sorry for him, denying everything he stands for, didn't think he could possibly...
       Edited: on second thought, it makes sense, being a rivalmance, for it is through rivalry as well that we can change Fenris' and Merril's pov, for the better. Though in Anders' case, it seems such a change would hurt even phisically...

About Anders in DA3, I agree with someone who said he will be somewhere leading (if survived) some sort of cult or (if deceased) being the martyr of it, but being in the player party again is very unlikely...

Modifié par Elriendel, 17 mai 2011 - 12:05 .

[Ninche]

ipgd wrote...

Ninche wrote...

To be honest I am slightly annoyed at the time jump post chantry jenga. Would the bull**** of one city somewhere in Thedas be enough to make ALL mages rise together? And why would they suddenly stop disagreeing on their believes and act as one? I hope a DLC or expansion for the 3 years after the jenga explains that because it seems pretty unrealistic.

Because of exactly the reason why Kirkwall imploded in the first place. The events there would spread ideas of revolution; the templars would crack down to quash sedition, exacerbating the perceived need for libertarian/resolutionist sentiment due to harsher treatment. Eventually, everything would reach a breaking point where all of the mages would have to cooperate because it's either that or death. How many mages do you think will be squabbling amongst themselves when the Right starts being called en masse?

Hmm I'm not sure chantry and templar leaders all over Thedas would go against their own circles because one circle somewhere wanted to start a war. Not everyone is as crazy as Meredith OR stupid. But I suppose the fact is that the war started so it doesn't matter how much we speculate. I'd like to see it developing though, and wonder if depending on whom you sided with you get to play a part in their uprising/resistance. 

[ipgd]

Ninche wrote...

Hmm I'm not sure chantry and templar leaders all over Thedas would go against their own circles because one circle somewhere wanted to start a war.

If their mages were rising up against them, they'd have to.

[dpMeggers]

Ninche wrote...

Hmm I'm not sure chantry and templar leaders all over Thedas would go against their own circles because one circle somewhere wanted to start a war. Not everyone is as crazy as Meredith OR stupid. 

Remember though, that Meredith's insanity wasn't widely known. Even Cassandra didn't find out until she talked to Varric, three years after the fact and the Seekers are supposed to be the CIA of the Chantry.

[YamiSnuffles]

Ninche wrote...

Hmm I'm not sure chantry and templar leaders all over Thedas would go against their own circles because one circle somewhere wanted to start a war. Not everyone is as crazy as Meredith OR stupid. But I suppose the fact is that the war started so it doesn't matter how much we speculate. I'd like to see it developing though, and wonder if depending on whom you sided with you get to play a part in their uprising/resistance. 

The reason the Divine was thinking about having a Divine March on Kirkwall was because of the mage issue. She was worried about what it would mean if the mages in Kirkwall openly rebeled. So it seems like the mages were in a pretty volatile situation across Thedas. From that it seems like the mages were ready to rebel under the right conditions.

The Templars- even if they aren't as crazy as Meredith- would be forced to crack down to either stop or try to prevent a similar uprising.

Modifié par YamiSnuffles, 17 mai 2011 - 12:19 .

[Jean]

Anders' face after telling him to leave again after he comes back to help you fight against the templars is the most woobie face i have ever seen

Modifié par Batteries, 17 mai 2011 - 12:18 .

[TotoroTori]

Sorry to interrupt but I can't seem to find yalls IRC chat room, any help?

[ipgd]

ipgd wrote...

Ninche wrote...

Hmm I'm not sure chantry and templar leaders all over Thedas would go against their own circles because one circle somewhere wanted to start a war.

If their mages were rising up against them, they'd have to.

To expand further on that:

1. Small group of mages see what happened in the Kirkwall Circle and get the Revolutionary Fever
2. Templars crack down on that group of mages, increasing the security and restrictions on every mage in that Circle (remember how the Ferelden Circle stopped having outside time after Anders swam for it?)
3. More mages are spurned by the increased restrictions, sympathy for Libertarian/Resolutionist groups amongst mages increases
4. Templars have to increase security and restrictions further to contain the growing sedition
5. Repeat steps 3 and 4 indefinitely until the boiling point as been reached
6. The situation comes to a head; templars invoke the Right to keep control of the Circle
7. As the Right calls for the elimination of all of the mages of the Circle, even the mages previously not involved or sympathetic to the revolution must join the revolution and fight or they will be killed. All of the mages that are loyal enough to the Chantry to not fight against the Right will ultimately be killed for it.
8. If the mages win in any particular given Circle, they end up as an massive encouraging example to other liberation efforts in other Circles; if they lose, they still end up an example to more extremist factions of the Circles, which brings everything back to step #1.

Lather, rinse, repeat.

[Ninche]

@ipgd and @dpMeggers and @Yami

Since I have only the Ferelden Circle to compare to the Kirkwall one: it seems to me that sometimes there's pretty healthy relationships between knight commanders and first enchanters, can you imagine Irving rousing all the mages against Gregoir because of the Kirkwall situation? Wouldn't he try to keep the peace and save as many of the mages' lives as possible? Won't loyalists from all over Thedas try and reason with their local Chantries and try and prevent war in their own country? It just seems like one chantry in one city isn't enough. But if Anders' actions served as an inspiration to other extremists and lots of violent anti-chantry acts followed, THEN I can definitely see things escalating to a full blown open conflict.

Edit: @ipgd's newst post: 

Sure, that's one way events could unfold. But it's mainly speculations and theories since we have no solid facts to base anything on except: **** hits the fan in Kirkwall ---> 3 years later all the Circles have risen and gone to war. I'd just like to see what happened inbetween

Modifié par Ninche, 17 mai 2011 - 12:35 .

[YamiSnuffles]

@Ninche

You're right, we don't have any solid facts about what the other Circles were like. However, like I said, the Divine is clearly very worried about the situation. Worried enough that she's willing to wipe the whole city off the map just to prevent a rebellion.

Once the Kirkwall mages do rebel, part of the Divine's fears would have been realized. Extremist groups within other Circles would likely take the opportunity to rebel. They wouldn't need every mage in the Circle to do this. Ferelden proves you don't need every mage in the Circle united to start something- they wouldn't need an Irving if they have an Uldred ready to fight. Also, the Divine could very well order all Knight Commanders to crack down. Thus, more mages would consider rebelling because they would see it as unfair treatment (ie, why are they being punished for the actions of one Circle in a whole other city/country?).

So you can easily get a situation like ipgd outlined. But yes, it's always speculation unless BW actually gives us an expansion/DLC/whatever to spell out exactly how it goes down. Until then, all we have is speculation.

Modifié par YamiSnuffles, 17 mai 2011 - 12:53 .

[legbamel]

Ninche wrote...
@ipgd and @dpMeggers and @Yami

Since I have only the Ferelden Circle to compare to the Kirkwall one: it seems to me that sometimes there's pretty healthy relationships between knight commanders and first enchanters, can you imagine Irving rousing all the mages against Gregoir because of the Kirkwall situation? Wouldn't he try to keep the peace and save as many of the mages' lives as possible? Won't loyalists from all over Thedas try and reason with their local Chantries and try and prevent war in their own country? It just seems like one chantry in one city isn't enough. But if Anders' actions served as an inspiration to other extremists and lots of violent anti-chantry acts followed, THEN I can definitely see things escalating to a full blown open conflict.[snip]

RE: the bolded question
How successful was he at keeping the peace when Uldred tried to take over the Circle?  Even the First Enchanter can be surprised/subdued if he or she stands in the way of what revolutionaries want.  And if you have violent extremists shown an example like Anders's, it seems only human nature that they'd be more than happy to follow it.

[legbamel]

Batteries wrote...

darkgriever26 wrote...

YamiSnuffles wrote...

Ninche wrote...
And I'd gladly think of Mage Pride as an Anders theme too if wasn't so bloody similar to the Fenris theme.

This is the precise reason I like to think of it as an Anders theme, actually, haha. I always just imagine it as Anders trolling Fenris.

Fenris: Ah, my theme. No wait... it's a little different.
Anders: MAGE PRIDE BABY!!! Mages took your theme and made it better.

Ohhh the Mage Pride Yes it can be a possible Anders theme haha

Edit: From all this talk about the soundtrack of DA2 got me to listen to it again right now I really love the "Love Scene" theme

why doesn't that music play in the game

it's not even in the credits

Speaking of the soundtrack (well after the fact), am I the only one who thinks that the ambient music for the Wounded Coast and various meandering-around-near-there scenes sounds exactly like the planet-mining music from ME2?  It cracks me up as I'm trolling the Coast for crates and dead people to loot.

[Ninche]

@Yami I never said you couldn't get ipgd's scenario, I just said it's one of many many possibilities. Also I think it's sort of sweet that some knight commanders might refuse to obey the chantry's orders and instead rise against it together with their circle and protect their mages. And this is, again, something I'd like to know about, if not experience or see in-game. I wouldn't mind a DLC of Hawke running off to Ferelden and just witnessing what happens to the Circle there, or maybe leading them away.

To be honest at this point I just wish BW would say something about what we can expect in their DLC, anything. I'm not liking this lack of information