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[Evilnor]

oops, double-post

Modifié par Evilnor, 18 mai 2011 - 12:18 .

[Evilnor]

As for the Anders Tranquility and Justice's new host discussions, I hope I'm not too late . . .

www.fanfiction.net/s/6865895/1/

I know, I am a very, very, evil person.  You may cry a little.

[darkgriever26]

highcastle wrote...

Gnas wrote...

Iliked Anders in Awakenings but I have not had my character romance him in DA 2. I can not reconcile his actions with him as a person let alone a love interest. His behavior was to such a degree that, now, I do not like him in DA2. Is anyone else having this problem?

No problem here. I don't condone his actions, but I approve of his goals and I've devoted quite a bit of time to thinking about what drove him to the Chantry jenga. Throughout DA2 we watch Anders' mental stability deterioriate, but the process was started even before DAA.

Prior to DAA, Anders spent a year in solitary confinement. That's not an experience you walk away from unscathed. He's also witnessed beatings, rapes, and other abuses at the hands of the templars. In DAA, he's saved from that by the Warden...only for his commander to abandon him and another templar step into his place. That's a final straw for Anders, I think. He's come so close to freedom, he's not going to give it up now. So he enters into a pact with Justice and he makes his escape. He heads to Kirkwall with the intention of helping other mages escape, but in those attempts he doesn't really make a lot of progress. The Circle remains intact. No one who has the power to stand up to the Knight-Commander is willing to do it.

Hawke can go to the Chantry on numerous occasions with varying amounts of evidence against the templars, asking Elthina to intercede. She refuses. And then by the time Act 3 rolls around, Ser Karras reveals Meredith's sent for the Right of Annulment. Anders sees all mages at risk now. And he knows something has to be done. He guesses (rightly so, as it turns out) that the First Enchanter won't confront Meredith directly about this, but will instead go to the Chantry. So the Chantry goes boom. In Anders' eyes, this is the only move he can make to ensure the Circle will rebel, the mages will fight the templars. He knows he can't fight Meredith on his own, but if the mages are in open rebellion, they at least stand a chance.

Is what he did a good thing? Well, that depends on how you see the Circle. Killing Elthina and blowing up the Chantry is a very morally questionable move. Whatever your thoughts on Elthina, she'd never directly harmed anyone. She seemed to be a somewhat calming presence on Meredith. But she always, always refused to take a side. She's the one person in Kirkwall who has the power and authority to stop the abuses of the templars, but she won't do it. So to Anders, that makes her a military target.

I don't think anyone was entirely comfortable with Anders' actions the first time through the game, if only for the real-world overtones. And I believe that's intentional. But I still find Anders' goals sympathetic. Even back in Origins, my first character was a mage, and I remember being pretty disgusted by the Circle and the Tranquil. It's not a good system, it doesn't work. Should Anders have tried to change it in this way? I don't think so. But I believe he thought it was the only move that would work, and as I've said, I support that change. Since you can't undo the Chantry jenga, the only thing left to do is move forward and try to build something better in its wake.

And as for Anders as a romance...man oh man is there so much drama in it. I love the tragedy of it, I love the way he reluctantly manipulates Hawke. You can tell it's torturing him to do it, and it drives a bit of wedge between them in the third act. I'm a sucker for drama and angst, and to me seeing two people who genuinely love each other fall apart because they're not confiding in each other, well...that's great story material right there.

Just woke up and I don't have much to say at this moment [still sleepy ] But nuff said. I agree with all that highcastle have said. As for my take on that, I also don't have a problem I support his beliefs but I do not like the means. That is what made my rivalmance playthrough more of what I would really say [not like my first playthrough where I made him a friend and supported him all the way.] And when he blew up the Chantry as I so shocked what I couldn't stop myself from saying "WTF?! ANDERS!" But I got some hint at first though I didn't really mind that.

Ok enough of that for me, I still like Anders and now I'm going back to sleep. I'm still sleepy

Modifié par darkgriever26, 18 mai 2011 - 12:25 .

[Camilladilla]

Gnas wrote...

So the ends justify the means? What's five or ten lives in comparison to all mages? Where do you draw the line? When is enough, enough? 

Anders didn't bring change, he sowed the seeds of discontent, of revolution, of ultimately, war. War isn't glorious, its wasteful. Lives upon lives will be lost. Couldn't change have come in a better way?

So by keeping Anders alive, then your Hawke is helping him atone for his actions? Is there atonement for his actions? Not just the bombing of the Chantry but all subsequant lives lost due to his choice? 

The level of change Anders wanted rarely comes without violence. I'm no history buff, but I'm sure someone like Upsettingshorts could probably point out the occasions in which non-violent means have managed to restructure society...

But we're talking about an institution that's been in place for about a thousand years. I just really doubt taking down the Circle would come easily with a few peaceful sit ins.

[Giggles_Manically]

I plan on romancing Anders when the patch comes out.

Very Shakespearean tragedy that.

[highcastle]

Gnas wrote...

So the ends justify the means? What's five or ten lives in comparison to all mages? Where do you draw the line? When is enough, enough? 

Anders didn't bring change, he sowed the seeds of discontent, of revolution, of ultimately, war. War isn't glorious, its wasteful. Lives upon lives will be lost. Couldn't change have come in a better way?

So by keeping Anders alive, then your Hawke is helping him atone for his actions? Is there atonement for his actions? Not just the bombing of the Chantry but all subsequant lives lost due to his choice? 

Could change have come in a better way? Maybe. But it's doubtful Elthina would have done anything to lift the Right of Annulment Meredith had already called for at the start of Act 3. So Anders blowing up the Chantry is what he believes to be the only way to avoid the systematic slaughter of hundreds of innocent people while those with the power to stop it just sat idle.

Again, I'm not saying I condone this, I just want to play devil's advocate for the moment. It's rather fun.

[Threeparts]

Gnas wrote...

So I am not the only one. Whew. I want to like him but at the same time, even in fantasy (I am an avid reader) there are still actions I find abhorrant and yes, its a story and fantasy but my ethics, beliefs, morals are maintained. I was deeply disappointed. Instead of moving for change, he destroyed and caused chaos. People would die because of his actions, irregardless of his actions or his past, the ramifications of his chioce are stark in comparison to anything he may have gone through in his own personal life. His actions are worse than just a single murderer.

I want to like him. I do. I want to forgive him as a character but, the consequences of his actions make that difficult. I mean I can go through the codexs and know why but the reality is, he destroyed innocent lives for a principle. To further is own agenda. Those lives, even if they were fantasy, were still lives.

I will admit, during my first playthrough, I killed him. There was no way I could allow him to live. Now I am in my second playthrough and I want to let him live. But I still can't imagine letting him live. Not with what Sebastian has said. Again, more innocent lives taken to their deaths for Ander's principle? How is that right? How is that justice? 

I won't excuse his actions, or water them down. He murdered people en masse for his cause. In addition to destroying the Chantry, killing those inside, he also caused the Right of Annulment to be called much sooner than it would have been (keeping in mind that Meredith had already sent to the Divine for it and was simply awaiting a response).
Thanks to this, either every single mage in the Kirkwall circle will be killed or made Tranquil (sparing those mages on the pro-templar run means that they will probably undergo the Rite afterwards), or they are forced to cut down every templar that threatens the mages they're seeking to protect. In addition, sparing Anders causes Sebastian to swear revenge on Hawke, possibly leading to war within the Free Marches later.

Any way you look at it, Anders' actions resulted in a very high death toll, directly or not.

And I, personally, am both aware of this and accepting of it. Of course I would like a peaceful, bloodless revolution. I don't like to see people get hurt. But what Anders is trying to do is change the way the world works, from the ground up.
He's trying to free mages from a religious and military system that systematically kidnaps children, threatens their families, raises mages to believe that their god hates them, tortures students in their care, has the ability to strip a person of all feeling and emotion on the suspicion of wrong-doing, an any number of other abuses.

The Circles and, by extension, the Chantry are corrupt, abusive institutions that refuse to change and thus need that change forced upon them. This isn't going to be resolved by petitioning or writing strongly-worded letters, or it would have happened already. The only way to force this change is through an uprising, and Anders has sparked something that will echo throughout Thedas, and will shake up every one of the fourteen Circles.

He is a murderer. He has killed people in cold blood to start a war. And my Hawke let him live because it's a war she believes in and intends to win. The deaths, while horrifying, were necessary to stop the abduction and imprisonment of every mage who is born in a society under Chantry rule. To me, it's worth it.


ETA: this took way too much time to write and there's been a ton of responses in the meantime. Back to catching up!

Modifié par Threeparts, 18 mai 2011 - 12:50 .

[dpMeggers]

Gnas wrote...

So the ends justify the means? What's five or ten lives in comparison to all mages? Where do you draw the line? When is enough, enough? 

Anders didn't bring change, he sowed the seeds of discontent, of revolution, of ultimately, war. War isn't glorious, its wasteful. Lives upon lives will be lost. Couldn't change have come in a better way?

So by keeping Anders alive, then your Hawke is helping him atone for his actions? Is there atonement for his actions? Not just the bombing of the Chantry but all subsequant lives lost due to his choice? 

Could change have come in a better way? Maybe. But other ways were tried. You can try smuggling mages out of the Gallows - but you would never have been able to get all of them out. You can try going to the Grand Cleric and the Knight-Captain with evidence of Templars, Alrik specifically, breaking Chantry laws - the evidence will be ignored. You can try convincing the Grand Cleric that if she does not come down on one side or the other, the city will be torn to pieces by the power struggle - she ignores that too, chosing to pray instead.

Did Anders not cause change? The Circles stood up for themselves, and broke the hold of the Templars over them because of his action and the subsequent reaction to it by Meredith (whether or not Hawke fights for the mages). That's a change. They never did that before. Revolution and war cause change. It might not be the best way to do it, but it is still a way.

As for helping him atone, I can't answer for all of them, but some Hawke's don't want that. Some fully support the Chantry bombing because of what it means for the mage rebellion. Some want open war. Other Hawkes think that killing Anders won't solve anything. The Chantry will still be in pieces, the Grand Cleric will still be dead, and Hawke will have to fight. Some might save him simply because they need a healer.

[CSlice]

I know I'm not the only person who questions how they make a Mage tranquil... but there are striking parallels to lobotomies in terms of the after effects of making a person tranquil. It makes me wonder if the same part of the human brain in real life is the alluded part of the brain in DA where magic comes from and that by making a Mage tranquil, they are effectively just giving him a lobotomy.

[Ninche]

Evilnor wrote...

As for the Anders Tranquility and Justice's new host discussions, I hope I'm not too late . . .

www.fanfiction.net/s/6865895/1/

I know, I am a very, very, evil person.  You may cry a little.

*delurks to quickly comment* 

Somehow it didn't make me sad as much as it made me angry - and then the end just made my heart leap Sooooooooo coooool!! 

I really don't get people who consider Anders' actions as a betrayal to Hawke - it had nothing to do with Hawke, it wasn't about Hawke - in ANY way. But this, a Hawke turning on Anders or giving him in - this is betrayal. 

And I don't see this as a "oh no Anders gets betrayed and dies" but as a "a nasty double-faced Hawke gets what's coming to her and Anders' example lives on" story. 

So in a twisted way it made me happy  

(Might be that the 18 hours spent editing so far have flamed my brain tho, ugh) 

*relurks* 

[Camilladilla]

Gnas wrote...

Could change have come in a better way? Yes, of course.

Anders didn't give those other ways a chance. He wanted immediate satisfaction. Culture shift, culture change isn't immediate. It takes time and education. But when done, it can change a society and the way people think.

I wonder, will Anders be remembered for what he did? Or will his name be lost to time?

The man who fired the single shot that started World War I, what was his name again? LOL

Anders tried to an extent to speak with Elthina to try get her to do something about the situation in Kirkwall with very lacklustre results... even to the point that Meredith went behind Elthina's back to call the Right of Annullment at the start of Act 3.

The Martin Luthor King Jr example was a very good one, but I don't really think it's a very strong parallel with the mage situation in Thedas. Generally when a mage tries to stand up and speak out he's dragged back to the Circle and told to be quiet under threat of tranquility or some other perverse punishment.

[dpMeggers]

Gnas wrote...

Could change have come in a better way? Yes, of course.

Anders didn't give those other ways a chance. He wanted immediate satisfaction. Culture shift, culture change isn't immediate. It takes time and education. But when done, it can change a society and the way people think.

I wonder, will Anders be remembered for what he did? Or will his name be lost to time?

The man who fired the single shot that started World War I, what was his name again? LOL

He was in Kirkwall for 6 years trying to change things other ways, he wasn't sitting on his hands until he decided "Whelp, this is the way it has to be." See my previous post on the page.

I'm not disagreeing that change can come peacefully in our world. Dr. Martin Luther King and Mahatma Ghandi are wonderful examples of that. But those are modern men in modern times. Would they have succeeded in the year 1100? The problem with comparing Anders to them is that they live in fantastically different societies.

As for WWI, are you thinking of Gavrilo Princip? Yes, he is definitely still remembered. (For those who don't know it's the name of the man who assassinated Archduke Franz Ferdinand of Austria).

[SurelyForth]

Gnas wrote...

highcastle wrote...

Gnas wrote...

So the ends justify the means? What's five or ten lives in comparison to all mages? Where do you draw the line? When is enough, enough? 

Anders didn't bring change, he sowed the seeds of discontent, of revolution, of ultimately, war. War isn't glorious, its wasteful. Lives upon lives will be lost. Couldn't change have come in a better way?

So by keeping Anders alive, then your Hawke is helping him atone for his actions? Is there atonement for his actions? Not just the bombing of the Chantry but all subsequant lives lost due to his choice? 

Could change have come in a better way? Maybe. But it's doubtful Elthina would have done anything to lift the Right of Annulment Meredith had already called for at the start of Act 3. So Anders blowing up the Chantry is what he believes to be the only way to avoid the systematic slaughter of hundreds of innocent people while those with the power to stop it just sat idle.

Again, I'm not saying I condone this, I just want to play devil's advocate for the moment. It's rather fun.

Think, Dr. Martin Luther King. You bet.

In a modern society where it's frowned upon to kill a person who dissents, especially in a country that was ostensibly founded upon the notion of personal freedom, non-violent protest can be extremely effective. In a medieval society where just chilling with an apostate is a hanging offense and almost everyone who could possibly start a movement is imprisoned, it's not nearly as feasible.