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[Jean]

Gnas wrote...

Could change have come in a better way? Yes, of course.

Anders didn't give those other ways a chance. He wanted immediate satisfaction. Culture shift, culture change isn't immediate. It takes time and education. But when done, it can change a society and the way people think.

I wonder, will Anders be remembered for what he did? Or will his name be lost to time?

The man who fired the single shot that started World War I, what was his name again? LOL

Yeah he did. He tried to talk to the Grand Cleric again after you find Ser Alrik's papers. And not even about Anders, after 1000 years of mages being ripped away from the families, told that their god hates them ect ect, mages have tried other ways to be free. Some peaceful some not. There's a reason the final quest is called The Last Straw.

A strongly worded letter or a stern finger waggle was not going to change the way the Chantry works.

[CSlice]

Gnas wrote...

Lobotomies are usually the destruction of the prefrontal cortex of the brain. Where your forehead is. Dreaming usually takes place in the back of the brain, brain stem. Its the more primative part of the brain.

So, using modern physiology, I would say, no.

I know where they are conducted, but that still doesnt mean that it's not true. What's being stripped from the mage is their ability to enter the fade while "dreaming" which is a connection to their magic. I dunno. I just saw there were a lot of parallels between lobotomies and tranquility in terms of after-effects and thought about it. I never took the dreaming into consideration and it's entirely possible that lobotomies were just the inspiration for Tranquility.

[Camilladilla]

Gnas wrote...

Then he should have gone up the chain, to Orlais. Anders didn't do that though. He stayed in Kirkwall and helped Hawke. Could he have done more? I believe so.

Do you realistically believe that going to Orlais would have done anything?

ESPECIALLY given how he Divine herself was ready to bring an Exalted March on Kirkwall because the mage situation was getting out of hand.

[Threeparts]

Gnas wrote...

Dr. Martin Luther King. He brought about a culture shift. One of the hardest kinds of change to accomplish but he did it without resorting to violence. He inspired. Ultimately it was his own death that spurred the civil rights movement. That is the best kind of change because he didn't just change society, he changed the way people thought. That is lasting change.

The question will be, will Anders actions be remembered in the same light? Doubtful. It will be the person, or small group of people, that set it to right that will be remembered.

"A small group of thoughtful people could change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has."
- Margaret Mead

The difference was that MLK was one of the leaders of an entire movement pushing for change. He wasn't a single voice trying not to be silenced, there were others speaking with him. He also wasn't trying to force change in a medieval society where might is, all too often, right.
The mages don't have the ability to speak out. There's a banter between Bethany and Anders that sums this up fairly well.

Anders: The Rite of Tranquility is the whole problem. If they didn't have that to hold over us, we'd have so many more options.
Bethany: Right! If we want to fight back... or just engage in intelligent debate... they make sure we can't do it.
Anders: They're forcing our hands. There's no way to change things peacefully.
Bethany: There must be something.
Anders: If it's Tranquility or death, we have no choice but to make every confrontation a life-or-death struggle.
Bethany: I know, but... there are good people in the Circle, the Chantry. There has to be a way to reason with them.
Anders: Not if they take away your ability to reason.

If mages tried to stage a peaceful protest within a Circle, how do you think all those armed men who have been indoctrinated to fear and hate their charges would respond? We've seen in Orsino how easily the voice of the First Enchanter can be drowned out by the voice of the templars watching them.
Not to mention, regular people don't get much interaction with mages. Their church tells them that magic is sinful and that mages are dangerous and corrupt, but they don't get to see good mages because they're locked up in Circles and families are threatened if they try to visit their children.
Mages could make speeches and stage protests, but their only audience would be themselves and the templars with the big swords. Not really conducive to change.

Modifié par Threeparts, 18 mai 2011 - 01:06 .

[Jean]

Gnas wrote...

Batteries wrote...

Gnas wrote...

Could change have come in a better way? Yes, of course.

Anders didn't give those other ways a chance. He wanted immediate satisfaction. Culture shift, culture change isn't immediate. It takes time and education. But when done, it can change a society and the way people think.

I wonder, will Anders be remembered for what he did? Or will his name be lost to time?

The man who fired the single shot that started World War I, what was his name again? LOL

Yeah he did. He tried to talk to the Grand Cleric again after you find Ser Alrik's papers. And not even about Anders, after 1000 years of mages being ripped away from the families, told that their god hates them ect ect, mages have tried other ways to be free. Some peaceful some not. There's a reason the final quest is called The Last Straw.

A strongly worded letter or a stern finger waggle was not going to change the way the Chantry works.

Then he should have gone up the chain, to Orlais. Anders didn't do that though. He stayed in Kirkwall and helped Hawke. Could he have done more? I believe so.

And do what? Complain and whine about how mages should be free at the Divine? She was already contemplating an exalted march on the entire city of Kirkwall by the time Act III has rolled around.

[SurelyForth]

Camilladilla wrote...

Gnas wrote...

Then he should have gone up the chain, to Orlais. Anders didn't do that though. He stayed in Kirkwall and helped Hawke. Could he have done more? I believe so.

Do you realistically believe that going to Orlais would have done anything?

ESPECIALLY given how he Divine herself was ready to bring an Exalted March on Kirkwall because the mage situation was getting out of hand.

Yeah, one of the more tragic and ironic things about Anders and DA2 is that Kirkwall during that time period s simultaneously the worst and most perfect place for him to be. It's bad because of the Hellmouth/Lyrium craziness making a volatile situation worse, thus spurring him to more drastic measures, but it's the best because it's a powder keg situation- something that can be used to expose the suffering of mages and the tyranny of the templars/injustices of the Chantry system to all of Thedas in a fairly efficient way. If done right. 

And I don't know if what he did was right, in that sense. I do agree that it was a last resort, but we'll have to see the fallout before I can call it beyond that.

[Evilnor]

CSlice wrote...

Gnas wrote...

Lobotomies are usually the destruction of the prefrontal cortex of the brain. Where your forehead is. Dreaming usually takes place in the back of the brain, brain stem. Its the more primative part of the brain.

So, using modern physiology, I would say, no.

I know where they are conducted, but that still doesnt mean that it's not true. What's being stripped from the mage is their ability to enter the fade while "dreaming" which is a connection to their magic. I dunno. I just saw there were a lot of parallels between lobotomies and tranquility in terms of after-effects and thought about it. I never took the dreaming into consideration and it's entirely possible that lobotomies were just the inspiration for Tranquility.

While the actual lobotomy procedure may not have been the best parallel to Tranquility (as the effects are sort of opposite) there is definitely a loss of function.  There are definitely times when people's brains are damaged beyond repair (traumatic brain injury, or TBI), and depending what part of the brain is harmed determines what the effect will be.  It's quite fascinating, actually.  There is so much we still don't understand about the inner workings of the human brain.  As the science is now, much of it is still a "best guess" hinging on observed results of "ok, what part of this person's brain is missing" to figure out what the functions of each area are.

Tranquility could likely be as simple as induced brain damage.

[Rifneno]

Gnas wrote...

Could change have come in a better way? Yes, of course.

Anders didn't give those other ways a chance. He wanted immediate satisfaction. Culture shift, culture change isn't immediate. It takes time and education. But when done, it can change a society and the way people think.

Completely wrong. First, he gave it the better part of a decade. This game takes place over 7 years, and the Chantry worse-than-killed his lover for the dire crime of writing a letter to an apostate shortly after the first year.

But more importantly, the Chantry's oppression has been going on for a thousand years. Do you honestly think things haven't changed because in a millennium no one made a good argument that the Chantry goes too far? It's just naive to think an oppressive religious empire is going to change its ways peacefully? Tyrants must be thrown off their thrones, they aren't going to get off because you ask nicely. But if you still think he should've just tried to change people's minds, do understand that Thedas isn't modern western society. There's no freedom of speech, and apostates aren't allowed to go start peaceful protests.

Innocents died (and I SO don't include Elthina in that category) because of what Anders did, but how many more innocents would die from continuing the status quo? There is unfortunately collateral damage in every war, but some wars do need to be fought.

[dpMeggers]

Gnas wrote...

Then he should have gone up the chain, to Orlais. Anders didn't do that though. He stayed in Kirkwall and helped Hawke. Could he have done more? I believe so.

You're suggesting then that he should have gone directly to the Divine, as head of the Chantry, and said "Look here, we mages are being abused by people you control, and Elthina isn't doing much, could you see your way to undoing 1000 years of the teachings of your church and let us go?"

It would be a bit like a English peasant going to the Pope in the 1000s and saying, "Look here, we are being opressed and taxed by priests and monks you control, and the Archbishop/King isn't doing much, could you see your way to undoing that?"

Nobody would listen to the peasant, if he could get anywhere near the Pope in the first place. Just like nobody would listen to Anders, because the Chantry is organized such that opressing mages is part of the religion, if he could even GET that close to the Divine without having his head cut off.

Modifié par dpMeggers, 18 mai 2011 - 01:37 .

[darkgriever26]

Gnas wrote...

I want to like him. I do. I want to forgive him as a character but, the
consequences of his actions make that difficult. I mean I can go through
the codexs and know why but the reality is, he destroyed innocent lives
for a principle. To further is own agenda. Those lives, even if they
were fantasy, were still lives.

I will admit, during my first
playthrough, I killed him. There was no way I could allow him to live.
Now I am in my second playthrough and I want to let him live. But I
still can't imagine letting him live. Not with what Sebastian has said.
Again, more innocent lives taken to their deaths for Ander's
principle? How is that right? How is that justice?

Gnas wrote...

Amondra wrote...

Gnas wrote...

Iliked Anders in Awakenings but I have not had my character romance him in DA 2. I can not reconcile his actions with him as a person let alone a love interest. His behavior was to such a degree that, now, I do not like him in DA2. Is anyone else having this problem?

Honestly, again my opinion here.  I didn't mind him in Awakening, but I loved in DA 2.  His actions didn't bother me as much as some people (I am going off you mean the Chantry)  At first I was in complete shock.  I think more that bioware had the balls to do something and that Anders did.  Though in real life now I wouldn't condone such acts.  In a fantasy world where I get to start a revolution and maybe free some people, hopefully for the better? Oh heck yes!  I mean Anders wanted to bring change, and he did it in sadly more often then not the only way to get the ball rolling.  Also I wasn't going to be finishing this revolution without the man that started it >_> talk about lazy Hawke.

I loved romacing him and have done it many times with out issue or feeling like I am getting lied to in such a bad or aweful way, as some see it.

So the ends justify the means? What's five or ten lives in comparison to all mages? Where do you draw the line? When is enough, enough? 

Anders didn't bring change, he sowed the seeds of discontent, of revolution, of ultimately, war. War isn't glorious, its wasteful. Lives upon lives will be lost. Couldn't change have come in a better way?

So by keeping Anders alive, then your Hawke is helping him atone for his actions? Is there atonement for his actions? Not just the bombing of the Chantry but all subsequant lives lost due to his choice? 

Hmmm wait...so many I don't know how to start.

For the first bold text, well morally speaking what he did is not right. It will never be right.

Now for the more hard part. Ok I personally do not believe that the end justifies the means and it would most of the time result into death. Anders knew it would have to come to that but he was prepared to pay for it.

Now for the change. He brought change in a violent way. Change is not always accepted by people and we almost always look at change as something negative. And I personally believe that change will not come in presentable packages. I mean, change is hard. Just as Justice is hard [had to use what Anders said about Justice ]

Now for keeping Anders alive. If you put it in a rival way, then yes you wanted him to set things right after what he did. For the atonement, it is a struggle for a person [who still has a good heart] to live each day knowing that you killed so many innocent people. It is, in my opinion, a mental punishment already.

Ok I don't know how to put fit these words in some of the questions but ok I'll just say it here:
Again, I've always believed that when you make a choice then you must have the guts to face the consequences. In Anders case, he made the choice and he was willing to face all of it even death now that his goals where done.

Next, War is never nice right? But it is inevitable nowadays. Even in real life, you cannot stop people from waging war. It will come sooner or later [from small things to grandeur ones].

I wanted talk some more but my mind is still disoriented because I'm still sleepy but I need to wake up now since my friend will come to visit my home . So pardon my post [I think it's a mess :pinched:] and all of that are just my opinion.

Edit: I'm in a state of shock right now because of the splurge of post . But well my eyes cannot focus in every word right now so I'm done with the discussion for now. Maybe after my mind is organized I'll go join the discussions again [and by that time it's a new topic for sure :lol:]

By the way, I'm not saying I disapprove peaceful solutions but sometimes it is not in the options so you have to make a choice.

Modifié par darkgriever26, 18 mai 2011 - 01:26 .

[Evilnor]

Ninche wrote...

Evilnor wrote...

As for the Anders Tranquility and Justice's new host discussions, I hope I'm not too late . . .

www.fanfiction.net/s/6865895/1/

I know, I am a very, very, evil person.  You may cry a little.

*delurks to quickly comment* 

Somehow it didn't make me sad as much as it made me angry - and then the end just made my heart leap Sooooooooo coooool!! 

I really don't get people who consider Anders' actions as a betrayal to Hawke - it had nothing to do with Hawke, it wasn't about Hawke - in ANY way. But this, a Hawke turning on Anders or giving him in - this is betrayal. 

And I don't see this as a "oh no Anders gets betrayed and dies" but as a "a nasty double-faced Hawke gets what's coming to her and Anders' example lives on" story. 

So in a twisted way it made me happy  

(Might be that the 18 hours spent editing so far have flamed my brain tho, ugh) 

*relurks* 

*bow*

Glad you approve

I support the idea of justice, after all . . .

[Amondra]

Gnas wrote...

Amondra wrote...

Gnas wrote...

Iliked Anders in Awakenings but I have not had my character romance him in DA 2. I can not reconcile his actions with him as a person let alone a love interest. His behavior was to such a degree that, now, I do not like him in DA2. Is anyone else having this problem?

Honestly, again my opinion here.  I didn't mind him in Awakening, but I loved in DA 2.  His actions didn't bother me as much as some people (I am going off you mean the Chantry)  At first I was in complete shock.  I think more that bioware had the balls to do something and that Anders did.  Though in real life now I wouldn't condone such acts.  In a fantasy world where I get to start a revolution and maybe free some people, hopefully for the better? Oh heck yes!  I mean Anders wanted to bring change, and he did it in sadly more often then not the only way to get the ball rolling.  Also I wasn't going to be finishing this revolution without the man that started it >_> talk about lazy Hawke.

I loved romacing him and have done it many times with out issue or feeling like I am getting lied to in such a bad or aweful way, as some see it.

So the ends justify the means? What's five or ten lives in comparison to all mages? Where do you draw the line? When is enough, enough? 

Anders didn't bring change, he sowed the seeds of discontent, of revolution, of ultimately, war. War isn't glorious, its wasteful. Lives upon lives will be lost. Couldn't change have come in a better way?

So by keeping Anders alive, then your Hawke is helping him atone for his actions? Is there atonement for his actions? Not just the bombing of the Chantry but all subsequant lives lost due to his choice? 

 If you ask anyone in America I am sure they will tell you the path of blood their founder paved was worth it. I doubt they would see that as sowing seeds of discontent.  Or maybe slavery ending? Because I am sure that wasn't rainbow as well.  Changes like the one Anders wants rarely if at all start or end on a good note.  you bathe your hands in blood so when it is all said in done the people you are fighting for never suffer or have to do what you did.  In Anders case turns himself one into an abomination of sorts, two blows up a building and becomes a murderer.  He will end up killing hundreds if you let him live with or with out you, and in the end if he wins; no other mages will have to worry about do something like that, because they have their freedom.  The fist blood is on his hands not theirs.  

Also in real life, nothing is ever enough, why do you think we are always at war? At least in games you can find your "enough" or at least a better one, then what you face in reality.

So do the ends justify the mean? Maybe.  I don't know I hope they do, and that is all you can do when you seek change.

[ladyofpayne]

caiterhe.deviantart.com/#/d3gjw8s
My poor Anders...

Modifié par ladyofpayne, 18 mai 2011 - 01:56 .

[ipgd]

Gnas wrote...

I want to like him. I do. I want to forgive him as a character but, the consequences of his actions make that difficult. I mean I can go through the codexs and know why but the reality is, he destroyed innocent lives for a principle. To further is own agenda. Those lives, even if they were fantasy, were still lives.

There's a difference between being a good person and a good character. There's little doubt what he did was awful, and detrimentous to his quality as a person -- but as a character, it made him all the more compelling. And that is why we are here.

Re: the MLK comparison: MLK came from a time far different from the one Anders lived in. He wasn't fighting the enslavement of his people, he was fighting against a legal and social prejudice that, while still terrible, was still at a better stage than it had been in the past. If it weren't for people like John Brown, and the bloody Civil War, who's to say that we could have gotten to the point where a black man could have even been free, let alone wish to be judged by the content of his character?

[Ryzaki]

When did Anders talk to Elthina? Him saying he was *going* to talk to her isn't the same as following it up. Especially not since finding out Elthina rejected the idea took some of the wind out of his sails. 

I remember asking him about that in the rivalry mance and his only comment was "It wouldn't work." well that or a sharp "No." he didn't say "I tried." or "it *didn't* work."  I'm pretty sure if he had tried and failed he would've thrown that in my Hawke's face.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 18 mai 2011 - 02:09 .

[phyreblade74]

I'm only not sure the change Anders was looking for was really the best and most appropriate change, though. It's that doubt of mine which makes my utter disgust with his actions so complete. I just don't think it's appropriate to give mages total freedom, with no control mechanisms in place, with none who can provide a safe-gap measure to mage powers.

Power corrupts, as you see when you give templars too much power over mages. Similarly, mages with complete autonomy to use the power they're born with already have a real good tendency to misuse it. And then you end up with a world or a system that allows them to -- oh, I dunno -- hold a young man down and burn lyrium into his skin, with nary a word to denounce them or stop them for it.

In my own canon, the change is different. It's not a total denunciation of the circle, because the circle provides a valuable purpose, one of guidance, safety, and teaching. Nor is it a complete abolition of the templars, because the templars are no more the boogey-men of the story than all the mages are. If I'm to buy into the idea that not all mages are weak or failed and doomed to become blood mages intent on their own gratifications -- well, then, not all templars are abusive bastards out to maim and rape and torment, either. There's good and bad in all of us.

The change I hope for, rather, is a compromise. A peace between both groups, because both groups really do need each other. Mages can and do fall prey to demons. And templars do need healing and spellcraft support. So what we should be working towards is a working relationship, a balance, a coexistance and support of each other. Tearing each other apart isn't the answer, it never was. But that is exactly what Anders made happen. And that's unforgiveable, imo.

War creates wounds and cements bad feelings. People don't forget, not really. They hold grudges, sometimes for generations. Because of what Anders has done, the change may very well be a wedge between two groups that should be working together but are now fighting each other, that leads to weakness and ineffectuality and endangerment of all, an imbalance that may persist forever, most especially the longer and more drawn out the conflict really is.

I like to think Kirkwall is better off than the rest of Thedas, as Orsino-turning-blind-eyes-to-serial-killing-necromancers is dead and Meredith-gone-raving-lunatic is dead. With Cullen as Knight Commander and my Hawke as Viscount then maybe something can be done for Kirkwall in the immediate aftermath that can prove helpful over the long run. Maybe.

[Amondra]

Ryzaki wrote...

When did Anders talk to Elthina? Him saying he was *going* to talk to her isn't the same as following it up. Especially not since finding out Elthina rejected the idea took some of the wind out of his sails. 

I remember asking him about that in the rivalry mance and his only comment was "It wouldn't work." well that or a sharp "No." he didn't say "I tried." or "it *didn't* work."  I'm pretty sure if he had tried and failed he would've thrown that in my Hawke's face.

He would have had his "I told you so" moment?

[Ryzaki]

Amondra wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

When did Anders talk to Elthina? Him saying he was *going* to talk to her isn't the same as following it up. Especially not since finding out Elthina rejected the idea took some of the wind out of his sails. 

I remember asking him about that in the rivalry mance and his only comment was "It wouldn't work." well that or a sharp "No." he didn't say "I tried." or "it *didn't* work."  I'm pretty sure if he had tried and failed he would've thrown that in my Hawke's face.

He would have had his "I told you so" moment?

That's exactly what he would've did.  Probably complete with dancing and singing. 

[Amondra]

Ryzaki wrote...

Amondra wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

When did Anders talk to Elthina? Him saying he was *going* to talk to her isn't the same as following it up. Especially not since finding out Elthina rejected the idea took some of the wind out of his sails. 

I remember asking him about that in the rivalry mance and his only comment was "It wouldn't work." well that or a sharp "No." he didn't say "I tried." or "it *didn't* work."  I'm pretty sure if he had tried and failed he would've thrown that in my Hawke's face.

He would have had his "I told you so" moment?

That's exactly what he would've did.  Probably complete with dancing and singing. 

I think they would have in the rivalmance, but it would have killed the angst/drama.  Though if his dancing and singing is anything like his lute skills...it might have added to it.

[LT123]

But doesn't Hawke talk to Elthina about mages during the Justice quest? I can't remember what her response is.

[SurelyForth]

Ryzaki wrote...

Amondra wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

When did Anders talk to Elthina? Him saying he was *going* to talk to her isn't the same as following it up. Especially not since finding out Elthina rejected the idea took some of the wind out of his sails. 

I remember asking him about that in the rivalry mance and his only comment was "It wouldn't work." well that or a sharp "No." he didn't say "I tried." or "it *didn't* work."  I'm pretty sure if he had tried and failed he would've thrown that in my Hawke's face.

He would have had his "I told you so" moment?

That's exactly what he would've did.  Probably complete with dancing and singing. 

I don't think so, actually. Her not listening/acting is what ultimately pushes him to do what he does. I find it hard to believe that he's so callous as to the potential impact of his action that he'd be able to derive any pleasure from failing on that front. It's also something he wants to do and wants to work. Or it is on the Friendship path.

[berelinde]

Amondra wrote...
 If you ask anyone in America...

If you ask most people in America how they got the freedoms they enjoy, they will probably tell you that they were given by G--. Call it blissful forgetfulness, if you want to be charitable, but most people who were born in the US have no idea what sacrifices others made and what horrors were endured and sometimes even overcome to get here. Grandchildren of Japanese-Americans can tell you about the relocation camps created during WWII because politicians feared that European-descended Americans would hold Asians in the US responsible for world events. African Americans can tell you about the prejudice they have suffered for 300 years become some scientist with calipers decided that facial angles were indicative of intelligence (quack pseudo-science!). Before his death, John Hart, a signer of the Declaration of Independence, lived under a rock-pile in the backroads of western New Jersey for 3 years, jumping at shadows because he "knew" the British were coming for him. (I've seen the rock he hid under.) There are three points to be made here. Freedom always has a cost. History will not remember it, but will instead blame the irrelevent. People can be patriotic and still be crazy. It's a mad old world, isn't it?

[Ryzaki]

Amondra wrote...
I think they would have in the rivalmance, but it would have killed the angst/drama.  Though if his dancing and singing is anything like his lute skills...it might have added to it.

 

 

Poor Hawke. I wonder how many times he had to endure Anders trying to play that thing? 

Though yes Anders dancing around Hawke while singing I told you so probably would've killed all the angst/drama.No matter how bad it was.  

It still would've so been worth it. 

SurelyForth wrote...

I don't think so, actually. Her not listening/acting is what ultimately pushes him to do what he does. I find it hard to believe that he's so callous as to the potential impact of his action that he'd be able to derive any pleasure from failing on that front. It's also something he wants to do and wants to work. Or it is on the Friendship path.

Probably not. But he certainly wouldn't resist a "I tried but she didn't listen." at my Hawke who keeps telling him to talk to Elthina.Especially not when his weak response is a simple "It wouldn't work." with nothing to give his reasoning any decent standing to my Hawke. It shouldn't have mattered if he didn't think it would work. He still should've *tried*. 

So chances are he didn't actually talk to Elthina. There would be no reason not to point that out to my Hawke who keeps telling him to do just that. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 18 mai 2011 - 02:29 .

[dpMeggers]

LT123 wrote...

But doesn't Hawke talk to Elthina about mages during the Justice quest? I can't remember what her response is.

"I feel for the mages I do, I would not want to be locked in the Gallows..." and then something about not being able to change it. I don't remember it word for word.