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[ipgd]

Ryzaki wrote...

So chances are he didn't actually talk to Elthina. There would be no reason not to point that out to my Hawke who keeps telling him to do just that. 

We don't know whether he did or didn't and it's pretty pointless to decide whether he did or didnt with no actual evidence.

[Ryzaki]

ipgd wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

So chances are he didn't actually talk to Elthina. There would be no reason not to point that out to my Hawke who keeps telling him to do just that. 

We don't know whether he did or didn't and it's pretty pointless to decide whether he did or didnt with no actual evidence.

...So him and Hawke having a debate about him talking with Elthina and him conviently never bringing it up is irrevelant? Even when his only response is "It wouldn't work." instead of telling Hawke he tried? Does Anders really strike you as the person who *wouldn't* mention that? 

Regardless I put chances are. And I'm gonna bow out now. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 18 mai 2011 - 02:34 .

[dpMeggers]

Ryzaki wrote...


Probably not. But he certainly wouldn't resist a "I tried but she didn't listen." at my Hawke who keeps telling him to talk to Elthina.Especially not when his weak response is a simple "It wouldn't work." with nothing to give his reasoning any decent standing to my Hawke. It shouldn't have mattered if he didn't think it would work. He still should've *tried*. 

So chances are he didn't actually talk to Elthina. There would be no reason not to point that out to my Hawke who keeps telling him to do just that. 

Hawke can talk to Elthina though.

After Alrik all she cares about is Alrik being dead, she doesn't address the tranquility issue. If you ask for more support for mages she says she won't change anything.

[Amondra]

berelinde wrote...

Amondra wrote...
 If you ask anyone in America...

If you ask most people in America how they got the freedoms they enjoy, they will probably tell you that they were given by G--. Call it blissful forgetfulness, if you want to be charitable, but most people who were born in the US have no idea what sacrifices others made and what horrors were endured and sometimes even overcome to get here. Grandchildren of Japanese-Americans can tell you about the relocation camps created during WWII because politicians feared that European-descended Americans would hold Asians in the US responsible for world events. African Americans can tell you about the prejudice they have suffered for 300 years become some scientist with calipers decided that facial angles were indicative of intelligence (quack pseudo-science!). Before his death, John Hart, a signer of the Declaration of Independence, lived under a rock-pile in the backroads of western New Jersey for 3 years, jumping at shadows because he "knew" the British were coming for him. (I've seen the rock he hid under.) There are three points to be made here. Freedom always has a cost. History will not remember it, but will instead blame the irrelevent. People can be patriotic and still be crazy. It's a mad old world, isn't it?

Ahh true.  I paid close attention in history Also being only a first gen American, I guess it was up to mean to see things from America's stand point in history.  also not like oma is going to know how America got their freedom.  Though she knew a lot on how Germany became a country and Prussia as well.  I was merely using it because America wanted to be independent/free from England.  Whicih I related to Anders freeing the mages, also like the ending of slavery.

Maybe it was a bad example?

[Ryzaki]

dpMeggers wrote...
Hawke can talk to Elthina though.

After Alrik all she cares about is Alrik being dead, she doesn't address the tranquility issue. If you ask for more support for mages she says she won't change anything.

I'll just answer this before leaving since you posted right after me. 

Oh sure he can. I just don't tend to because it kind of feels off to me that you have a recently murdered templar's letter on your person and no one bothers investigating. 

True she does do that. That to me doesn't mean Anders still shouldn't have tried some more. Even if he was ultimately met with a stone wall. Unlike Anders Hawke doesn't know the mages that have been abused by the system himself. Hawke also doesn't bother bringing up the abuses the templars are committing. Now if Anders had laid all that at her feet and she said "not helping." then I would give him kudos for trying. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 18 mai 2011 - 02:39 .

[ipgd]

Ryzaki wrote...

ipgd wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

So chances are he didn't actually talk to Elthina. There would be no reason not to point that out to my Hawke who keeps telling him to do just that. 

We don't know whether he did or didn't and it's pretty pointless to decide whether he did or didnt with no actual evidence.

...So him and Hawke having a debate about him talking with Elthina and him conviently never bringing it up is irrevelant? Even when his only response is "It wouldn't work." instead of telling Hawke he tried? Does Anders really strike you as the person who *wouldn't* mention that? 

He does say something about talking to Elthina after you get Alrik's papers, and if you take them to her (and take Anders with you), she handwaves you. He also directly tells you to talk to her and try to convince her during Justice and she handwaves you.

If he needs to have some sort of obligate I TOLD YOU SO Elthina hissy-fit conversation for whatever reason, it could have happened off screen. We do not know enough to conclude definitively.

absence of evidence is not necessarily evidence of absence etc.

[Ryzaki]

Telling someone "I tried it didn't work." =/= hissyfit.

Ah whatever. Agree to disagree and all that jazz.  

Modifié par Ryzaki, 18 mai 2011 - 02:45 .

[ipgd]

you should know well enough by now that i am being glib ryzaki

[Ryzaki]

ipgd wrote...

you should know well enough by now that i am being glib ryzaki

Maybe. 

My issue with it is it's not something Hawke brings up *once* its a running theme in their relationhip. "Talk to the Grand Cleric, try to find a compromise." If someone was nagging you about something for years and years on end would you not tell them you tried it and failed or would you let them continue on and on only saying "it wouldn't work." ? And then end the conversation with I'll think about it. (in not so many words.) 

It's not really information that one *would* leave out. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 18 mai 2011 - 02:52 .

[erilben]

Anders says "Perhaps she'll be more inclined to listen to you" when he asks you to go talk/distract Elthina. That implies he's tried to talk to her.

[SurelyForth]

On a totally unrelated and probably well-known note...

Oh, Anders. If you side with the mages, then tell him to just leave already, you can still complete the romance the normal way at the Gallows. It's like all he has to do is be slightly self-effacing and she's completely forgotten why she booted him in the first place.

Anders' Hawke: Completely Whipped

Modifié par SurelyForth, 18 mai 2011 - 03:05 .

[Rifneno]

I'm sure the guy who spends his free time endangering himself by healing poor people for free wouldn't bother to try to talk to someone before bombing a building.  I mean have you talked to those Doctors Without Borders guys?  They're bloodthirsty monsters!  They're like half wolverine and half honey badger.  Healers who want to endanger themselves for no personal gain are the most rabid berserker monsters nature ever created.

....

*rolls eyes*

[Evilnor]

Don't forget Anders is an apostate. Being in the Chantry alone as a guy with no clear social standing besides "criminal" (just for being a mage and NOT in the Circle) is like begging to be carted off to the Gallows before he can even present his case. In this interpretation, he's censored before he can open his mouth. Hawke is basically the only one who can talk to Elthina on his behalf, and in the game that can only happen twice, to my knowledge.

[Ryzaki]

erilben wrote...

Anders says "Perhaps she'll be more inclined to listen to you" when he asks you to go talk/distract Elthina. That implies he's tried to talk to her.

He does? 

*loads up a DA2 game* 

:/ 
He doesn't tell me that. He just asks me to talk to her before my Hawke starts going "wait...what?" 

@Evilnor: I'd buy that in Act 2. In Act 3? You can drag him infront of Meredith and Cullen and they do nothing because Hawke's the champion. (Heck even in act 2 you can drag him infront of Cullen and Elthina and no alarm is sounded). 

Maybe the dialogue changes on friendship/rivalry. Because I'm not getting any inclined to listen to you branch. Just him asking me to talk to her. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 18 mai 2011 - 03:13 .

[ipgd]

SurelyForth wrote...

On a totally unrelated and probably well-known note...

Oh, Anders. If you side with the mages, then tell him to just leave already, you can still complete the romance the normal way at the Gallows. It's like all he has to do is be slightly self-effacing and she's completely forgotten why she booted him in the first place.

Anders' Hawke: Completely Whipped

My Hawke took all of about 5 seconds to forget about the Chantry, your Hawke isn't doormat dedicated enough

[dpMeggers]

Ryzaki wrote...

erilben wrote...

Anders says "Perhaps she'll be more inclined to listen to you" when he asks you to go talk/distract Elthina. That implies he's tried to talk to her.

He does? 

*loads up a DA2 game* 

:/ 
He doesn't tell me that. He just asks me to talk to her before my Hawke starts going "wait...what?" 

@Evilnor: I'd buy that in Act 2. In Act 3? You can drag him infront of Meredith and Cullen and they do nothing because Hawke's the champion. (Heck even in act 2 you can drag him infront of Cullen and Elthina and no alarm is sounded). 

Maybe the dialogue changes on friendship/rivalry. Because I'm not getting any inclined to listen to you branch. Just him asking me to talk to her. 

I was just going to say it might be a friendship/rivalry difference. I think the context of that quote is Hawke asks "What should I talk to Elthina about." and Anders replies "Food, the weather, what does it matter? No, speak to her of mages...*blather about mages*. Maybe she will be more inclined to listen to you."

Obviously on the rivarly path, Hawke won't be trying to convince Elthina that mages aren't all that bad, so Anders would never say that.

[Ryzaki]

dpMeggers wrote...
I was just going to say it might be a friendship/rivalry difference. I think the context of that quote is Hawke asks "What should I talk to Elthina about." and Anders replies "Food, the weather, what does it matter? No, speak to her of mages...*blather about mages*. Maybe she will be more inclined to listen to you."

Obviously on the rivarly path, Hawke won't be trying to convince Elthina that mages aren't all that bad, so Anders would never say that.

Maybe. I probably missed something though. 

Hawke doesn't think mages are bad on the rivalry path. Just dangerous. They dislike the abuses going on in the circle because an already dangerous person being scared and rattled is even worse. Well my Hawkes anyway. So if Anders *wasn't* able to convince her (and told them so) they would've tried to appeal to her (using actual evidence of abuses like the names of those mages wrongly harrowed.) if that had been ignored they would've probably killed Elthina themselves. <_<

Modifié par Ryzaki, 18 mai 2011 - 03:36 .

[Camilladilla]

ipgd wrote...

My Hawke took all of about 5 seconds to forget about the Chantry, your Hawke isn't doormat dedicated enough

Doormat Hawkes unite!

[dpMeggers]

Ryzaki wrote...

dpMeggers wrote...
I was just going to say it might be a friendship/rivalry difference. I think the context of that quote is Hawke asks "What should I talk to Elthina about." and Anders replies "Food, the weather, what does it matter? No, speak to her of mages...*blather about mages*. Maybe she will be more inclined to listen to you."

Obviously on the rivarly path, Hawke won't be trying to convince Elthina that mages aren't all that bad, so Anders would never say that.

Maybe. I probably missed something though. 

Hawke doesn't think mages are bad on the rivalry path. Just dangerous. They dislike the abuses going on in the circle because an already dangerous person being scared and rattled is even worse. Well my Hawkes anyway. 

But a rivalry-Hawke isn't going to try to convince Elthina to free all mages, which is what I meant, if understated.

[Ryzaki]

dpMeggers wrote...
But a rivalry-Hawke isn't going to try to convince Elthina to free all mages, which is what I meant, if understated.

Oh defintely not. My rivalry Hawke was a bit surprised when she said she couldn't risk taking either side. Didn't think she was doing too well with that with Meredith having the gall to threaten him. (well threaten Bethany but the point stands). 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 18 mai 2011 - 03:43 .

[Amondra]

Camilladilla wrote...

ipgd wrote...

My Hawke took all of about 5 seconds to forget about the Chantry, your Hawke isn't doormat dedicated enough

Doormat Hawkes unite!

My Hawke is doormat Hawke too

[Dr. Doctor]

To me Elthina's character is weaker if you don't have the Sebastian DLC. Without Seb you miss out on some excellent lines such as "death is never justice."

What she represents in the story is compromise and reason. Whereas Merideth and Orsino are polarized on their respective sides of the Mage/Templar debate Elthina holds the belief that both sides must be willing to make concessions to one another in order to keep the peace.

Anders/Justice views this lack of passionate response to the unrest in Kirkwall as a weakness, but to me it takes much more strength of character to be diplomatic rather than shackling yourself to a single point of view.

[ipgd]

Dr. Doctor wrote...

Anders/Justice views this lack of passionate response to the unrest in Kirkwall as a weakness, but to me it takes much more strength of character to be diplomatic rather than shackling yourself to a single point of view.

Except when the desire to be "diplomatic" mutates into ineffectual inaction.

[mellifera]

Camilladilla wrote...

ipgd wrote...

My Hawke took all of about 5 seconds to forget about the Chantry, your Hawke isn't doormat dedicated enough

Doormat Hawkes unite!

Holla

[Rifneno]

ipgd wrote...

Dr. Doctor wrote...

Anders/Justice views this lack of passionate response to the unrest in Kirkwall as a weakness, but to me it takes much more strength of character to be diplomatic rather than shackling yourself to a single point of view.

Except when the desire to be "diplomatic" mutates into ineffectual inaction.

I'm still disappointed that sarcastic Hawke didn't get an option to tell Elthina "but I cannot take sides!" or "if it is the Maker's will..." as a refusal to take the Faith quest.  =/