57020 réponses à ce sujet

[dpMeggers]

Ryzaki wrote...

dpMeggers wrote...
But a rivalry-Hawke isn't going to try to convince Elthina to free all mages, which is what I meant, if understated.

Oh defintely not. My rivalry Hawke was a bit surprised when she said she couldn't risk taking either side. Didn't think she was doing too well with that with Meredith having the gall to threaten him. (well threaten Bethany but the point stands). 

I was personally surprised by that. Really, it wouldn't be much of a risk for her to take the templars' side against the mages would it? Being as she's Chantry and they're Chantry...

I have played a pro-compromise Hawke who thought Elthina should have just replaced Meredith with a slightly saner Knight-Commander so that there was an actual chance of people getting together and talking about it like sane adults instead of ranty lunatics. No sides taken, just action.

and for top:


by: lingering-song

Modifié par dpMeggers, 18 mai 2011 - 04:08 .

[Amondra]

Rifneno wrote...

ipgd wrote...

Dr. Doctor wrote...

Anders/Justice views this lack of passionate response to the unrest in Kirkwall as a weakness, but to me it takes much more strength of character to be diplomatic rather than shackling yourself to a single point of view.

Except when the desire to be "diplomatic" mutates into ineffectual inaction.

I'm still disappointed that sarcastic Hawke didn't get an option to tell Elthina "but I cannot take sides!" or "if it is the Maker's will..." as a refusal to take the Faith quest.  =/

That would have been great and Seb's face too

[Ryzaki]

dpMeggers wrote...
I was personally surprised by that. Really, it wouldn't be much of a risk for her to take the templars' side against the mages would it? Being as she's Chantry and they're Chantry...

I have played a pro-compromise Hawke who thought Elthina should have just replaced Meredith with a slightly saner Knight-Commander so that there was an actual chance of people getting together and talking about it like sane adults instead of ranty lunatics. No sides taken, just action.

 

It really wouldn't. I have no idea what she thought she was doing other than delaying the inevitable. If I was her I'd left Kirkwall to the Divine especially after Hawke tells her about the resolutionists and that her life is in danger. If she was so concerned about her sheep she should've pretended the Maker wanted them to leave or some crap.

And yes action is what was needed most in Kirkwall. Not praying to the Maker who abandoned them. 

[darkgriever26]

Ok so now it's about the Chantry?

Hmmm...I honestly don't know what to say. But all I can say is this, too much power corrupts everything.

From the looks of it, the Chantry has it's own flaws as well. I mean I'm fine with the response of Elthina that she doesn't want to get involved. But sometimes you do have to get involved or else you will have to be forced to get involve. And by force meaning something bad will happen first and you have no other options but to choose. That is what made the game so realistic and amazing. I for one do not like to takes sides as much as possible but if I'm forced to take a side then I will support the side that I believe in. In my case I always prefer to side with the mages [although I want to try siding with the templars just to see what happens and to see what Anders would react after asking him to side with you while on the templars side] since in my opinion, the mages have suffered enough and at least give them some freedom now. I know sooner or later having too much freedom will again be abused but that's the way it is. People will sooner or later forget their responsibilities and will again cause conflict due to being unfair to others.

And with that, I find it inevitable to have such conflicts. Well don't mind me but I'm saying that a perfect and peaceful world is really hard to reach.

[dpMeggers]

ElleMullineux wrote...

Ugh, don't get me started on Elthina. I don't see her as the voice of compromise at all. As the voice of the Chantry she simply cannot be, she is the controlling force of the Templars. To keep the illusion intact she cannot be seen to act, but for my mind there is enough going on behind the scenes to make the assumption that she at least approved of Sister Petrices actions (if not indirectly involved, with a statement like 'someone ought to do something about the Qunari' knowingly within earshot of a zealoty Petrice), as Petrice is made a Mother, I presume of their shiny new money making venture  Chantry being built in the Docks.

Well that's sort of what we've been saying. She's not compromising, she's just sort of...sitting. Compromise requires the action of bringing people together so that they can discuss how to work things out. She just tells them to go to their rooms.

And her claiming she can't take sides is a bit silly. She's the Grand Cleric. Officially, she's Meredith's boss. Siding with Meredith over the mages wouldn't cost her anything, she's already Chantry. Even taking Meredith off the job and putting say, Cullen, in her place wouldn't cost her anything either.

IIRC the codex in Act III sort of implies that everyone thinks she's a bit useless, but she's been there so long, and she's kind of a collective grandmother, so nobody wants to say anything.

Even if you see her in the most benign way possible, she's benignly useless.

I still havn't decided if she's willingly blind and incompetent, or the most subtle manipulator of events in the game.

[esper]

Good morning Anders tread, I have decided to socialize since I have been lurking on this tread since page 1.
Anyway - I don't think that Elthina had it in her to plot. I just think she was a nice person who should never, never had had a political/military position, but I do agree that the chantry as a whole is corrupt.

[Ryzaki]

Agreed on power corrupts.

"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men."

I'm a firm believer in some sort of checks and balances system (one that hopefully *actualy works*). No one group should hold all the power. The Chantry has way too much power than is necessary. Mages should not be housed by a secular organization. Especially not one whose whole religion is based off the *bad* mages did.

[ipgd]

ElleMullineux wrote...

Ugh, don't get me started on Elthina. I don't see her as the voice of compromise at all.

I think she's the perfect symbol of the compromise, actually: old, ineffectual, stuck in her ways. Even her personality embodies everything Anders was against.

[esper]

I think Elthina is the voice of passivity or of just trying to keep status que - which I agree was everything Anders was fighting against.

[Amondra]

ElleMullineux wrote...

Ugh, don't get me started on Elthina. I don't see her as the voice of compromise at all. As the voice of the Chantry she simply cannot be, she is the controlling force of the Templars. To keep the illusion intact she cannot be seen to act, but for my mind there is enough going on behind the scenes to make the assumption that she at least approved of Sister Petrices actions (if not indirectly involved, with a statement like 'someone ought to do something about the Qunari' knowingly within earshot of a zealoty Petrice), as Petrice is made a Mother, I presume of their shiny new money making venture  Chantry being built in the Docks.

It's 6am here so I can't find the exact quotes that I'm looking for, but there are her comments about elves, mages, qunari, anything that isn't a 'normal' chantry going person. Add to that, she's in a position of significant power and seems reluctant to leave it, because well, if she left the Divine would put someone else in her place. The reason Elthina doesn't go to Orlais, or make more decisive action is to my mind a result of her trying to keep a lid on it herself to keep her position in place.

I'm sure there are more Chantry sympathetic people out there, but personally I view the whole thing as a massively corrupt system which has no interest aside from it's own interest. And it's own interests do not extend to mages being free ever. If mages and 'normal' people were to work together they could easily overthrow Divine rule. The military power of trained mages would be enormous. So.... I'm sure I had a point.

Meh, gonna get some breakfast and try to wake up a bit more.

*hugs*  Well you are not alone in the thoughts on the Chantry.  I have always said it reminds me of how the Church of old worked in real life.  Mostly the Catholic, as at one point you weren't Christain unless you were Catholic it seemed, and the church was up to it's eye balls in corruption.  Also could override anything the crown did, if they didn't like it.  Oh and they had Templars too...maybe it is because of these lines I have drawn I have little love for the Chantry as it takes on the mask of a time when religion was not at it's best, and actions like Anders were needed to bring it to it's knees so people would wake up and realize what was going on.  Granted there no mages involed with real life, you get my point I hope(There is one in there somewhere)

As for Elthina I had never looked at her from that light.  I just thought she was that niave and thought if she ignored it, it would go away, or that Meredeth and Orsino would calm down again and it would be over.  Or maybe she just wasn't thinking...  I did always wonder how much of what did she know about.  But we will never know because Anders was nice enough to grant her a vaction to see the Maker live in where ever he lives now...

[LT123]

Amondra wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

ipgd wrote...

Dr. Doctor wrote...

Anders/Justice views this lack of passionate response to the unrest in Kirkwall as a weakness, but to me it takes much more strength of character to be diplomatic rather than shackling yourself to a single point of view.

Except when the desire to be "diplomatic" mutates into ineffectual inaction.

I'm still disappointed that sarcastic Hawke didn't get an option to tell Elthina "but I cannot take sides!" or "if it is the Maker's will..." as a refusal to take the Faith quest.  =/

That would have been great and Seb's face too

That would have been amazing. The look on Seb's face would have been priceless.

Hawke: But I cannot take sides!
Aveline: [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/angry.png[/smilie] Hawke!
Seb: [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/pinched.png[/smilie]
Varric: *snickers* I'm writing this down.

Edit: Broken smileys, what?

Modifié par LT123, 18 mai 2011 - 06:00 .

[esper]

ElleMullinex - perhaps you are right, I just... I just don't need more reason to hate Elthina, my Hawke is radical enough as it is. (Now I think about it Elthina spend time in Orlais with all it's bards and working behind the scenes...)
And my Hawke too would have loved to tell Elthina: "But I cannot take sides!" Doing that quest... It would have been priceless....

[darkgriever26]

All of you guys have a point.

Elthina as a person is not so bad. I respect her idea to not be involve but again even if she took a side, that would still cause conflict. Everyone wants others to accept their own side but as biased as it may seem...everyone will give extra effort to prove they are the ones who are right. Even if it causes conflict and chaos.

So all in all, it is a pressure for someone who does not take a side at all. Either people see them as a passive person or, if that person took a side, will be viewed as someone who is giving a blind eye.

Such an ironic world.

[esper]

I am not blind to the fact that if Elthina took a side it would have to be against the mages... How could she anything else. Last time a chantry tried to lessen its hold on the mages the black divine was created. (Again Tevinter may not be the best example). To be quite honest I was kind of relived when Anders blew the chantry up, because after best served cold I felt that my poor Hawke was going in cirles and nothing would ever change.
That said I am actually surprised that Cassandra went from 'Hawke was an apostate that came to Kirkwall to work against the chantry' (Can't remember the exact line) to 'I need to find Hawke so she can calm the mages down' - My Hawke spend the whole act III trying to start the war revolution.

[Amondra]

 Completely off topic but on track with the thread because Anders loves cats! 

[darkgriever26]

Amondra wrote...

 Completely off topic but on track with the thread because Anders loves cats! 

What a cute cat! <3

Anyway I would also have to agree. I for one will not wonder if Elthina will take the side of the templars based on what happened in Tevinter. Nuff said I'll just look at that cute cat for now I dunno why but I'm still sleepy. And what's more I just drunk one bottle of liquor. [It's not wine but somewhat like a vodka mix haha! Had a drinking session with my friend right now]

[Amondra]

ElleMullineux wrote...

@ Amondra, sorry just spotted your comment about Elthina's holiday and had a giggle fit on the train!

It breaks my poor heart when Anders wants to go and talk to Elthina because I'm there thinking it's not going to make a bit of difference.

If he did, but I like to think he did...or at least wrote serious letter, which would make more sense.  Talking to her doesn't mean actually talking to her.  But yeah.  I really think that poor man tried everything he could think of.  Granted people say he could have thought of more, and yeah if he had more time, and wasn't on an emotion swing, saw what a mage gone bad can really do(kill his bestfriend or lovers mother with magic most foul)  He is seeing an entire city that seems to be full of evil Templars and not just pushy one like in Fereldan.  He is seeing weak mages destroying his argument left and right.  I mean I am surprised he was in a corner rocking back and forth and it was Hawke who sent Elthina on vaction at the end of the game, or just sent the entire city.  By all that is good in life, that game put us in the ****ing center of crazy ville.

[Amondra]

darkgriever26 wrote...

Amondra wrote...

 Completely off topic but on track with the thread because Anders loves cats! 

What a cute cat! <3

Anyway I would also have to agree. I for one will not wonder if Elthina will take the side of the templars based on what happened in Tevinter. Nuff said I'll just look at that cute cat for now I dunno why but I'm still sleepy. And what's more I just drunk one bottle of liquor. [It's not wine but somewhat like a vodka mix haha! Had a drinking session with my friend right now]

That's Miss. Mao, she is mama cat.  Well at least she thinks she is my mother lol

[darkgriever26]

Amondra wrote...

That's Miss. Mao, she is mama cat.  Well at least she thinks she is my mother lol

Ohhh... Haha! She's so cute! :lol:<3

[mellifera]

by millibayley

A younger Karl and Anders, in better times ;-;

Modifié par yukidama, 18 mai 2011 - 09:09 .