57020 réponses à ce sujet

[CalJones]

From sandara.

I must say I didn't really dislike Seb until I did my templar playthrough and heard his last conversation at the Gallows. My immediate thought was, what a wanker.

Funny you posting that screengrab - Anders was in the same place (for his Dog talk) when Izzy showed up at chez Hawke in my current game. Made me laugh a bit.

Modifié par CalJones, 22 mai 2011 - 01:01 .

[kromify]

mmm from-behind cuddles

okay that sounded bad..

[highcastle]

Speaking of Seb, I never really disliked him until I got his banter with Fenris where he confesses to wanting to turn in Anders to the Circle. With Hawke and Anders right there. Living together. And both being mages. *facepalm* I really wanted a conversation with him right then, especially since even mage-hating Fenris was going, "Whoa, down boy, that's just too far."

What bugs me most is that this occurs in Act 3, three years after he's been following Hawke and Anders around. I'd be a bit more understanding if he had his doubts in Act 2 when he first joins the party, and then Hawke sets him straight off-screen. But to have him go 3 years harboring these thoughts and never bring them to Hawke...first of all, it's one more example of his ineffectiveness and unwillingness to actually do anything. Second, he should know Hawke well enough by now to know turning in the guy who's been living with him for three years just for being a mage when Hawke himself is a mage is maybe not a great idea. I just don't get it. I really don't know his thought process and it bugs the crap out of me.

[Xilizhra]

I think in Sebastian's case, Anders' obsession and growing lack of humanity are worrying him. Fenris, on the other hand, never liked Anders in the first place and doesn't much care what his personality has become; he presumably doesn't see Anders as a potential loose cannon while Hawke is commanding him.

Also, Fenris seems to still retain some slave mentality and probably sees Hawke as his mistress/master in some way.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 22 mai 2011 - 01:24 .

[highcastle]

Xilizhra wrote...

I think in Sebastian's case, Anders' obsession and growing lack of humanity are worrying him. Fenris, on the other hand, never liked Anders in the first place and doesn't much care what his personality has become; he presumably doesn't see Anders as a potential loose cannon while Hawke is commanding him.

Also, Fenris seems to still retain some slave mentality and probably sees Hawke as his mistress/master in some way.

Ok, I can get behind something like this. It was reading to me initially as though Fenris respects Hawke too much to go behind his back, so what does that say about Sebastian? Of course, Seb having this conversation within earshot of Hawke is just stupid on his part. If he does want to go behind Hawke's back, he's doing a pretty poor job of it.

Also, I don't really hate Seb. He just confuses me at times. Like now.

[Xilizhra]

Sebastian's faith is a higher priority to him than Hawke. Fenris has no higher priority other than fighting off people hunting him.

[highcastle]

ElleMullineux wrote...

Ugh, Seb. I love the character, but I totally hate him. It's a bit like he knows too much, and he's the only one that seems to nudge at Hawke's hero aura/ authorrity. I know Aveline says something about Hawke doing something worthwhile but it's more bantery. Seb is deadly seriously.

And wanting to turn Anders over, first time I heard that line my jaw dropped. Wanted a punch Seb option at that point.

Ah, Seb. I RPed my canon Hawke as having a bit of a hero complex when it comes to his loved ones. He already rushes blindly to protect them with no thought to his own safety, and Seb wants to turn those same instincts loose on the entire city. It might be good for Kirkwall, but I could see it destroying Hawke.

But that's just my personal head-canon.

[Heidenreich]

highcastle wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I think in Sebastian's case, Anders' obsession and growing lack of humanity are worrying him. Fenris, on the other hand, never liked Anders in the first place and doesn't much care what his personality has become; he presumably doesn't see Anders as a potential loose cannon while Hawke is commanding him.

Also, Fenris seems to still retain some slave mentality and probably sees Hawke as his mistress/master in some way.

Ok, I can get behind something like this. It was reading to me initially as though Fenris respects Hawke too much to go behind his back, so what does that say about Sebastian? Of course, Seb having this conversation within earshot of Hawke is just stupid on his part. If he does want to go behind Hawke's back, he's doing a pretty poor job of it.

Also, I don't really hate Seb. He just confuses me at times. Like now.

Even if you "Romance" Seb, he wont put his feelings for Hawke above his faith. In this, its his biggest character flaw. It inables him to very seriously consider turning Anders in behind Hawke's back, and even to ask someone ELSE who doesn't like Anders to help him.

Except that Fenris would never betray Hawke. Fenris runs on loyalty mode (unless you absolutely dont bother with him at all, that is. for the most part, even when he ACTUALLY choses to betray Hawke he can be convinced back to Hawke's camp.). that is to say, betraying the one person who's not once in seven years betrayed his trust is absolutely not something Fenris would do. He's just not a bad guy.

Sure, if he's not 100% Hawke's BFF/BRF he'll have a hard time seeing the logic behind helping the mages kill all the templars and cause untold havoc in the world.. (because he knows first hand what stupid weak mages can do), but that's not Betrayl so much as "Dude, I can't help you do this. I've helped you do everything else with minimal complaint up till now.. but this? Its to much."

Where upon you can brow beat him and he's like "... **** it." and comes back to help Hawke. Which is probably part of having been a slave. At the end of the day, Hawke's the boss. That doesn't mean Hawke's his master, it just means Fenris is used to taking orders in some form or another, and up until now Hawke's not being terribly unreasonable. In fact, the argument you give to brow-beat him is STILL not unreasonable .Crazy, but not unreasonable ;p

Mind you, all this doesn't make Sebastian a bad guy either. He's not. He's just a priest, who believes very firmly in being a priest. Even when he talks about leaving the Chantry and taking back his kingdom, he's still a priest. He'll have one obligitory heir, maybe two (The heir and the spare as he says), and then return to being a priest. The idea that someone would go against the chantry's ideals apalls him. He BELIEVES FIRMLY that the chantry is right.

So Anders in the last two acts (see, when Seb meets him) is starting to become more and more anti-chantry. Anders firmly believes that if the chantry would just INTERVINE, they could tip the balance of power. Especially considering that the Templars WORK for the chantry. Seb sees this as an attack on himself and everything he loves, and only puts up with Anders for the sake of Hawke.

But, Seb hasn't known Hawke nearly so long as all the rest, nor did he know Anders before depression mode really sunk in for Anders. So while all of the rest of the crew knows that Anders can be a really awesome dude, (even Fenris) Seb doesn't get to really see that side.

The being irritating, plus a mage, plus an abomination, plus anti-chantry piles up, and the only logical conclusion for seb would be to just turn him in for everyone's saftey. In fact it probably WOULD HAVE been the best solution.. but no one else would betray Hawke to do it.. and -most- of the rest of them still like Anders. They just don't like Depressing Doom and Gloom anders ;p







and this totally got away from me. I need more coffee.






Also? I totally hate Seb. Haet haet burning pashun haet. He'd have been a great character, but you know.... the artists and animators LITTERALY gave him a troll face in his final scene.. and it pisses me off. <_<

Modifié par Heidenreich, 22 mai 2011 - 02:01 .

[highcastle]

The more I read your post, Heidenreich, the more similarities I see between Seb and Anders. Both are uncompromising in their ideals, both put their causes above anyone else. I think my problem here is that I agree with Anders' cause and not Seb's, which is a problem on my end and not a character flaw of Seb's

[CalJones]

I haven't heard that banter - I tend not to use Seb very much.
It always makes me laugh when, after the Chantry goes boom, he comes out with something like "what if it had been me in the Chantry?!!!"

Um, yes. You're an impulsive tag-along who insists on ramming your belief down our throats, whereas Anders is the love of my life. I don't think I'd cry too much, buddy.

[Heidenreich]

highcastle wrote...

The more I read your post, Heidenreich, the more similarities I see between Seb and Anders. Both are uncompromising in their ideals, both put their causes above anyone else. I think my problem here is that I agree with Anders' cause and not Seb's, which is a problem on my end and not a character flaw of Seb's

Pretty much. ;p Seb's a tag along for the sake of taggnig along. Anders is generally and genuinly grateful to hawke and offers his assistance for the deeep roads thing, and by the end of the first three year block, he's become a friend. I almost don't get the impression that Seb ever really tries to be anyone -elses- friend. Bela's irritated by him, Varric's Irritated by him, Anders' irritated by him, even Aveline doesn't really even like Seb.

They might not AGREE with anders, but they at least respect and somewhat LIKE him ;p Even Fenris, though he'd never admit it. That is, so long as you didn't romance both of them >.> Then, they just hate each other.

[DragonRacer]

Heidenreich wrote...

highcastle wrote...

The more I read your post, Heidenreich, the more similarities I see between Seb and Anders. Both are uncompromising in their ideals, both put their causes above anyone else. I think my problem here is that I agree with Anders' cause and not Seb's, which is a problem on my end and not a character flaw of Seb's

Pretty much. ;p Seb's a tag along for the sake of taggnig along. Anders is generally and genuinly grateful to hawke and offers his assistance for the deeep roads thing, and by the end of the first three year block, he's become a friend. I almost don't get the impression that Seb ever really tries to be anyone -elses- friend. Bela's irritated by him, Varric's Irritated by him, Anders' irritated by him, even Aveline doesn't really even like Seb.

They might not AGREE with anders, but they at least respect and somewhat LIKE him ;p Even Fenris, though he'd never admit it. That is, so long as you didn't romance both of them >.> Then, they just hate each other.

The bolded part is the most important, to me. If VARRIC - Mr. Cool, Laid-Back, Brofists For Everybody -- is irritated by him, THAT IS SAYING SOMETHING RIGHT THERE.

[darkgriever26]

Heidenreich wrote...

highcastle wrote...

The more I read your post, Heidenreich, the more similarities I see between Seb and Anders. Both are uncompromising in their ideals, both put their causes above anyone else. I think my problem here is that I agree with Anders' cause and not Seb's, which is a problem on my end and not a character flaw of Seb's

Pretty much. ;p Seb's a tag along for the sake of taggnig along. Anders is generally and genuinly grateful to hawke and offers his assistance for the deeep roads thing, and by the end of the first three year block, he's become a friend. I almost don't get the impression that Seb ever really tries to be anyone -elses- friend. Bela's irritated by him, Varric's Irritated by him, Anders' irritated by him, even Aveline doesn't really even like Seb.

They might not AGREE with anders, but they at least respect and somewhat LIKE him ;p Even Fenris, though he'd never admit it. That is, so long as you didn't romance both of them >.> Then, they just hate each other.

Yeah I do agree with both of you. Between Anders' cause and Seb's I'll stick to Anders thank you very much. I think Seb's mind is pretty much very impulsive and confusing. Plus, Seb didn't have that much time to really get to know Anders unlike the others and when I also heard about that banter [not in my playthrough but on youtube] I'm rather glad that Fenris, who dislikes/hates Anders, still disagrees with that idea. Besides there are some things that Anders and Fenris agrees [well they agree when it comes to Merrill though :lol:].

So there, I don't really hate Seb but it's just that I'm somewhat annoyed with him being too...I dunno one-sided or narrow-minded when it comes to the Chantry? I can't really explain <_<

Modifié par darkgriever26, 22 mai 2011 - 03:12 .

[DragonRacer]

AndreaDraco wrote...

Amondra wrote...

Very nice picture. The crow - which reminds me of Zevran, thus linking my two favorite Dragon Age NPCs - is very well done!

This may be waaaay out of left field, but my mind goes to odd places, forgive me. But after Merrill's random banter comment about Anders reminding her of a crow in the middle of anting (she says this if you completed the Justice quest in Act III and Anders dons his Black Outfit of Great Foreshadowing)... that, added with this picture, made me think of a Crow being a good symbol for Anders and the Mage Revolution.

I am big on animal symbolism and remembered that crows and ravens have varying myths and lore around them -- more than just the fairly recent (last few hundred years) idea that they are portents of death and war, even though THAT symbolism fits here as well, obviously. But North American Native American lore, a more positive symbol of crows/ravens, makes this tie with Anders even more fascinating (I have bolded the particularly fitting bits)...

From: www.symbolic-meanings.com/2007/11/15/symbolic-meaning-of-the-raven-in-native-american-indian-lore/


The symbolic meaning of the Raven in Native American Indian lore describes the raven as a creature of metamorphosis, and symbolizes change/transformation.

In some tribes, the Raven is considered a trickster because of its transforming/changing attributes.

Often honored among medicine & holy men of tribes for its shape-shifting qualities, the Raven was called upon in ritual so that visions could be clarified. Native holy men understood that what the physical eye sees, is not necessarily the truth, and he would call upon the Raven for clarity in these matters.

Foremost, the Raven is the Native American bearer of magic, and a harbinger of messages from the cosmos. Messages that are beyond space and time are nestled in the midnight wings of the Raven and come to only those within the tribe who are worthy of the knowledge.

The Raven is also called upon in Native ritual for healing purposes. Specifically, the Raven is thought to provide long-distance healing.

The Raven is also a keeper of secrets, and can assist us in determining answers to our own "hidden" thoughts. Areas in our lives that we are unwilling to face, or secrets we keep that harm us – the Raven can help us expose the truth behind these (often distorted) secrets and wing us back to health and harmony.

Also quoted on that website is this (for those unfamiliar, Dr. Carl Jung was the mind behind the Myers-Briggs personality test ):


Dr. Carl Jung deemed raven symbolism to represent the shadow self, or the dark side of the psyche. I very much like this. Why? Because by acknowledging this dark side, we can effectively communicate with both halves of ourselves. This offers liberating balance, and facilitates tremendous wisdom (something the raven would be very pleased with).

Maybe the writers didn't intend to draw such a parallel, particularly with just an off-hand party banter comment, but I find it fascinating, nonetheless...

Modifié par DragonRacer, 22 mai 2011 - 03:14 .

[darkgriever26]

What the....double post Sorry I'll just delete this one and you guys go read the other

Modifié par darkgriever26, 22 mai 2011 - 03:21 .

[darkgriever26]

DragonRacer wrote...

AndreaDraco wrote...

Amondra wrote...

Very nice picture. The crow - which reminds me of Zevran, thus linking my two favorite Dragon Age NPCs - is very well done!

This may be waaaay out of left field, but my mind goes to odd places, forgive me. But after Merrill's random banter comment about Anders reminding her of a crow in the middle of anting (she says this if you completed the Justice quest in Act III and Anders dons his Black Outfit of Great Foreshadowing)... that, added with this picture, made me think of a Crow being a good symbol for Anders and the Mage Revolution.

I am big on animal symbolism and remembered that crows and ravens have varying myths and lore around them -- more than just the fairly recent (last few hundred years) idea that they are portents of death and war, even though THAT symbolism fits here as well, obviously. But North American Native American lore, a more positive symbol of crows/ravens, makes this tie with Anders even more fascinating (I have bolded the particularly fitting bits)...

From: www.symbolic-meanings.com/2007/11/15/symbolic-meaning-of-the-raven-in-native-american-indian-lore/


The symbolic meaning of the Raven in Native American Indian lore describes the raven as a creature of metamorphosis, and symbolizes change/transformation.

In some tribes, the Raven is considered a trickster because of its transforming/changing attributes.

Often honored among medicine & holy men of tribes for its shape-shifting qualities, the Raven was called upon in ritual so that visions could be clarified. Native holy men understood that what the physical eye sees, is not necessarily the truth, and he would call upon the Raven for clarity in these matters.

Foremost, the Raven is the Native American bearer of magic, and a harbinger of messages from the cosmos. Messages that are beyond space and time are nestled in the midnight wings of the Raven and come to only those within the tribe who are worthy of the knowledge.

The Raven is also called upon in Native ritual for healing purposes. Specifically, the Raven is thought to provide long-distance healing.

The Raven is also a keeper of secrets, and can assist us in determining answers to our own "hidden" thoughts. Areas in our lives that we are unwilling to face, or secrets we keep that harm us – the Raven can help us expose the truth behind these (often distorted) secrets and wing us back to health and harmony.

[/i]Also quoted on that website is this (for those unfamiliar, Dr. Carl Jung was the mind behind the Myers-Briggs personality test ):


Dr. Carl Jung deemed raven symbolism to represent the shadow self, or the dark side of the psyche. I very much like this. Why? Because by acknowledging this dark side, we can effectively communicate with both halves of ourselves. This offers liberating balance, and facilitates tremendous wisdom (something the raven would be very pleased with). Maybe the writers didn't intend to draw such a parallel, particularly with just an off-hand party banter comment, but I find it fascinating, nonetheless...

Maybe the writers didn't intend to draw such a parallel, particularly
with just an off-hand party banter comment, but I find it fascinating,
nonetheless...

Pretty good insight [And you've just mentioned one of my favorite Psych theorist haha! :lol:]

Ahh yes...such symbolisms made me greatly interested with this game! Bioware really did a great job with this 
Edit: They may not be intended but it is very fascinating to note. Good job as well for noticing it. [I didn't manage to hear that in my playthroughs but if I did, I might have researched it as well.]

Modifié par darkgriever26, 22 mai 2011 - 03:21 .

[DragonRacer]

darkgriever26 wrote...

Pretty good insight [And you've just mentioned one of my favorite Psych theorist haha! ]

Ahh yes...such symbolisms made me greatly interested with this game! Bioware really did a great job with this 
Edit: They may not be intended but it is very fascinating to note. Good job as well for noticing it. [I didn't manage to hear that in my playthroughs but if I did, I might have researched it as well.]

Thanks! Some would probably just say I overthink this stuff, but then again, we ALL are on a forum making in-depth conversations about a video game character, so I'm in good company, right?

The banter isn't long, but this is it:


Merrill: Have I ever mentioned I like your coat?
Anders: You do?
Merrill: It's very lively! Like a crow in the middle of anting!
Anders: That's.... that's great. Thanks, Merrill.

Granted, as much as the crow comment set my mind to thinking, I did have to go look up what in the world "anting" is. LOL

Modifié par DragonRacer, 22 mai 2011 - 03:33 .

[Ninche]

Ohh nice research DragonRacer! Haha I could totally believe the DA writers going THAT deep with their characters and symbolisms and supposedly random banters. DA feels a bit like Lost at times (without the terrible unsatisfying rushed ending - even though we could argue DA2 has one too but for different reasons!) - nothing you see or hear is random, and there's little and subtle (and often big and not subtle at all) clues and hints of things to come or things that have been or just other characters. I just hope the DA writers don't copy the Lost tactic and add random stuff just to tease us but actually follow through with their suggestions and symbols and devlop the story in a way that would leave us gasping with new understanding at every chapter.

Hehe you've go me thinking about all kinds of possible rl mythology and psychology parallels now!

[berelinde]

I like the symbolism of the raven for Anders and his revolution. Makes perfect sense to me.

And somehow, the really good discussions always happen 2-4 hours before I read this thread and it always feels like thread necromancy to bring it up again.

I agree with the posters who compared Anders to Sebastian. They do have a great deal in common. Blind devotion to a cause that interferes with their ability to form relationships with others, etc. But there is a point when that comparison breaks down. There is nothing Anders does not sacrifice for his cause. In many peoples' games, the biggest thing he gives up is his life. Scratch that. In everyone's game, he loses his life over it, or at least the life he wanted. Even if the PC spares him, his life will never be the same again. Sebastian risks nothing. It is other people who must give up the things that matter to them to make his dreams happen for him. Anders does what he does for the benefit of others, even strangers. Sebastian says that he will slaughter thousands of innocents because one person (who is either dead or has long-since fled the city) killed someone he cared about. Anders goes to great lengths to prevent the PC from being blamed for his crimes, even if it happens anyway. Who knows what Sebastian would do in similar circumstances.

It seems to me like their similarities make their differences stand out in sharper profile.

[Amondra]

Good morning everyone

I like the theory on Anders and the raven! I never even thought of that, Anders just became even hotter to me, if that is possible. The depth to him is just so...so...I can't think of a word...

also makes me think of this saying my oma says:
Angst verleiht Flügel.

What she means is: Fear will make you do things you would deem impossible in a different situation.

Maybe it is hearing that saying my whole life, is why I love Anders so much.

[CalJones]

I've had the crow conversation when he's been wearing his regular coat, though it's certainly more appropriate to the black outfit, I'll give you that.

Nice to see you here, Berelinde. A lot of what you say, regarding sacrifice, reminds me of Loghain. He gets a lot of hate from players (largely down to Alistair, I think) but again, he is just doing what he thinks is necessary and is prepared to sacrifice not just his life but his reputation.

Of course, the fact that Anders is romanceable and likes kittens means he gets away with it more often than poor old Loggy.

[chq]

berelinde wrote...

I like the symbolism of the raven for Anders and his revolution. Makes perfect sense to me.

And somehow, the really good discussions always happen 2-4 hours before I read this thread and it always feels like thread necromancy to bring it up again.

I agree with the posters who compared Anders to Sebastian. They do have a great deal in common. Blind devotion to a cause that interferes with their ability to form relationships with others, etc. But there is a point when that comparison breaks down. There is nothing Anders does not sacrifice for his cause. In many peoples' games, the biggest thing he gives up is his life. Scratch that. In everyone's game, he loses his life over it, or at least the life he wanted. Even if the PC spares him, his life will never be the same again. Sebastian risks nothing. It is other people who must give up the things that matter to them to make his dreams happen for him. Anders does what he does for the benefit of others, even strangers. Sebastian says that he will slaughter thousands of innocents because one person (who is either dead or has long-since fled the city) killed someone he cared about. Anders goes to great lengths to prevent the PC from being blamed for his crimes, even if it happens anyway. Who knows what Sebastian would do in similar circumstances.

It seems to me like their similarities make their differences stand out in sharper profile.

De-lurking to say this isn't necessarily fair to Sebastian.  He has given up a lot for his faith, i.e. vows of chastity and poverty and whatnot; if he's less radical about giving of himself, that's probably because he actually cares about hsi own mental health, unlike Anders.  

As for the IMMA INVADE UR CITY AND KILL UR DUDES thing, I'm not sure that once he's calmed down and thought about it he'll actually do it.  When he says that he's understandably really really upset.  His home, the place he's lived for at least the past seven years, has just been totally blown sky high.  It's the only place where he's really felt any sense of peace or belonging his whole life.  Besides Elthina, all of the Brothers and Sisters who he'd lived with for years and hung out with whenever he wasn't following Hawke around and who were probably his good friends were in there.  I mean, of course he's flipping out, anyone would be flipping out.  And then Hawke goes NOPE NOT GONNA KILL ANDERS and he's like whaaaaa......?!  I mean, even Anders agrees that Anders deserves to die at this point; since the game doesn't give you a "make him stand trial" choice or some other comparable option, this is the only justice possible for his actions.  So if that justice is denied... yeah, Sebastian is pissed and freaking out.  I think he has a right to be.  Whether he lets this really traumatic event make him go all Punisher or whether he remembers Elthina's lessons on forgiveness and doesn't ultimately start a war over the whole thing remains to be seen, but the moment was really heated and I think there's a possibility of him not following through on the threat.  

[Xilizhra]

Given Sebastian's extreme impulsiveness, I doubt that this threat will ever be seriously carried out. And if it is, I'll cheer him on; there's no Circle in Kirkwall and the templars are still controlling the place.