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[highcastle]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Even if the body model is accurate, its a growing pet peeve of mine. No-one in this thread could have been attracted to Anders' abs because ingame they do not exist.

Objectively speaking Anders is a face, a voice, an outfit, and a relationship to characters and the world he lives in. If the art is focused on something else, especially if it comes at a cost of a lack of any of these things - or worse, an obvious contradiction of it, then it strikes me as shameless self-indulgence that doesn't respect the character. 

All that being said, it is just a pet peeve. I will not go on a Anders-is-a-terrorist-accept-it-or-accept-this-lecture-instead series of rants about it.

But your rants are awesome! And actually, the body image topic hasn't really come up much in this thread (unless I missed it), but I think it bears some mention.

There was a lot of disapproval about the lack of armor variants for companions in DA2 (I know, because I was pretty vocal about it myself when first announced). However, once I actually played the game, I really liked the decision. Why? Custom body rigs (or at least models that looked fairly different).

I've taken a few general sociology classes for my criminology degree. In these, one things that comes up when modern media is discuss is the way men and women are portrayed in video games, where the laws of physics and biology need not apply. You can see standard fare in the way Isabela is portrayed, or in m!Hawke's muscle-of-doom arm. But DA2 takes steps in the right direction with Aveline's more action-oriented stance (I refuse to call it masculine because it's not; it's just not the flirty, slouchy, hyperfeminized thing Isabela does) or with Anders' build.

Since this is an Anders thread, I'll stick with him. You don't see many non-cut, non-ripped video game males unless they're ultra-stylized. But Anders is, dare I say it, normal. He's not oozing muscles but he's also not a waif. He looks like a guy on a stress diet, maybe a bit underweight but not much. Yay for normalcy. You don't see it too often in any media these days. We tend to favor idealized portrayals of the human physique, so I really like that DA2 (while indulging in some displays), also offered quite a bit of variety in the companion models. 

And seeing Anders portrayed as a normal human being does a lot for my reasons for liking him. I think it also makes what he does more effective. He's not some Neitzchean superman (at least not in appearance; we can debate his thought patterns later, maybe). He looks like the guy next door, and he just blew up a building. Perhaps this suggests that anyone is capable of such actions under the right (or wrong) circumstances.

Edit for top: Look at those arms. Those are not Trogdor arms, thank goodness!

Modifié par highcastle, 25 mai 2011 - 02:09 .

[kromify]

lots of people on this thread have stated that they prefer his skinny model

edit; i am one of them  

Modifié par kromify, 25 mai 2011 - 02:09 .

[elenilote]

highcastle wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Even if the body model is accurate, its a growing pet peeve of mine. No-one in this thread could have been attracted to Anders' abs because ingame they do not exist.

Objectively speaking Anders is a face, a voice, an outfit, and a relationship to characters and the world he lives in. If the art is focused on something else, especially if it comes at a cost of a lack of any of these things - or worse, an obvious contradiction of it, then it strikes me as shameless self-indulgence that doesn't respect the character. 

All that being said, it is just a pet peeve. I will not go on a Anders-is-a-terrorist-accept-it-or-accept-this-lecture-instead series of rants about it.

But your rants are awesome! And actually, the body image topic hasn't really come up much in this thread (unless I missed it), but I think it bears some mention.

There was a lot of disapproval about the lack of armor variants for companions in DA2 (I know, because I was pretty vocal about it myself when first announced). However, once I actually played the game, I really liked the decision. Why? Custom body rigs (or at least models that looked fairly different).

I've taken a few general sociology classes for my criminology degree. In these, one things that comes up when modern media is discuss is the way men and women are portrayed in video games, where the laws of physics and biology need not apply. You can see standard fare in the way Isabela is portrayed, or in m!Hawke's muscle-of-doom arm. But DA2 takes steps in the right direction with Aveline's more action-oriented stance (I refuse to call it masculine because it's not; it's just not the flirty, slouchy, hyperfeminized thing Isabela does) or with Anders' build.

Since this is an Anders thread, I'll stick with him. You don't see many non-cut, non-ripped video game males unless they're ultra-stylized. But Anders is, dare I say it, normal. He's not oozing muscles but he's also not a waif. He looks like a guy on a stress diet, maybe a bit underweight but not much. Yay for normalcy. You don't see it too often in any media these days. We tend to favor idealized portrayals of the human physique, so I really like that DA2 (while indulging in some displays), also offered quite a bit of variety in the companion models. 

And seeing Anders portrayed as a normal human being does a lot for my reasons for liking him. I think it also makes what he does more effective. He's not some Neitzchean superman (at least not in appearance; we can debate his thought patterns later, maybe). He looks like the guy next door, and he just blew up a building. Perhaps this suggests that anyone is capable of such actions under the right (or wrong) circumstances.

You do have to respect an artist's right to portray the characters as they see them though. As mentioned, Lou did this before DA2 came out, and so what if the physique in this is not 'default' Anders' - it is still a bloody good render. And because she says it is Anders, we compare it to the in-game design immediately, if she had titled the piece 'Random male model no 9' - noone would complain. 

[upsettingshorts]

elenilote wrote...

You do have to respect an artist's right to portray the characters as they see them though. 

Criticism is a right of the audience, in turn.  A lack of criticism is implicitly comprehensive approval.

I did not comment on the technical quality of the render, for example. 

[YamiSnuffles]

Yay for slim Anders.

Tangentially related @highcastle, but is that a costume mod or just the way the picture looks? He seems more blue and brown than his usual teal and grey. Not that I object because he looks good, I'm just wondering.

*goes back to working on Elle's commission*

Modifié par YamiSnuffles, 25 mai 2011 - 02:15 .

[highcastle]

YamiSnuffles wrote...

Yay for slim Anders.

Tangentially related @highcastle, but is that a costume mod or just the way the picture looks? He seems more blue and brown than his usual teal and grey. Not that I object because he looks good, I'm just wondering.

*goes back to working on Elle's commission*

Yes, it's a subtle recolor of his first outfit found here. I can't do facemorphs, but I don't mind recolors of some of the outfits just because it adds a bit of variety (and as I said above, I was one of those people who lamented the loss of some customization of the characters). I'm not a fan of many of the Anders' outfits recolors, but this particular one I like, probably because it's just minor tonal differences rather than drastic reworkings of the whole thing.

[berelinde]

highcastle wrote...
Ah, but are you really saving him on the rivalry path? Or even making a very good attempt? I know we've gotten into this debate before on this thread, I just can't help myself. I'm like the kid who keeps touching the stove because it makes such a pretty red glow. (Weird metaphors are clearly the result of lack of coffee).

The rival path (and admittedly, I cannot play it myself as I agree too much with Anders' cause and it breaks my immersion to have Anders yell at me for hating mages when I've been fighting for them the whole game) generally relies on constantly breaking Anders down, telling him everything he's doing and has done is wrong. For someone as unstable as Anders, this just seems like a recipe for disaster. 

Hawke doesn't have to be blind during the friendmance, either. During the Justice quest, there's a chance for Hawke to call Anders out on the lack of a potion and demand answers or plea for Anders to trust him. He can get just as much of a heads up to Anders' intentions (without specifics) as during the rivalmance. It is heartbreaking, but in a good way (at least to me). I'm a sucker for angst and tragedy and relationships that fall apart because of how much the two involved care for each other but still wrestle with their issues.

Also, I just think friendmanced Anders is more mentally stable by the end of things. Rivalmanced Anders clearly wants to die. And even sparing him, he makes it clear he won't live very long afterwards. For someone who claims to love him, Hawke can be pretty callous if he attains this result.

I've said elsewhere that the friendmance versus rivalrymance comes down to at some level how much Hawke loves Anders individually versus how much he cares for the general populace. The friendmane allows greater stability for Anders at the cost of a war with the templars. This Anders will go down fighting if spared. He's never going to give up his cause. Rivalmanced Anders, in contrast, is basically shattered. He won't be leading any revolutions after the end of the game, but he also won't be alive much longer (in all likelihood).

I guess at the end of the day, I prefer selfish!friendmancing!Hawke. Like I said, it helps that I agree with Anders' goals. More than anything, I believe it's this issue which causes us to throw support behind the friendmance or the rivalmance. If you agree with him, you're more likely to be his friend and justify to yourself how this is the better path. If you don't, you'll do the same with the rival option.

I am going to link this so that every time I have to explain to my fiance why I am "coddling" Anders when he needs a kick in the butt, I have a more eloquent way to explain it than "Because I hate kicking a guy when he's down."

[SurelyForth]

highcastle wrote...
Since this is an Anders thread, I'll stick with him. You don't see many non-cut, non-ripped video game males unless they're ultra-stylized. But Anders is, dare I say it, normal. He's not oozing muscles but he's also not a waif. He looks like a guy on a stress diet, maybe a bit underweight but not much. Yay for normalcy. You don't see it too often in any media these days. We tend to favor idealized portrayals of the human physique, so I really like that DA2 (while indulging in some displays), also offered quite a bit of variety in the companion models. 

And seeing Anders portrayed as a normal human being does a lot for my reasons for liking him. I think it also makes what he does more effective. He's not some Neitzchean superman (at least not in appearance; we can debate his thought patterns later, maybe). He looks like the guy next door, and he just blew up a building. Perhaps this suggests that anyone is capable of such actions under the right (or wrong) circumstances.

This is especially interesting when you consider the fact that he is, probably, incredibly powerful. He's so gimped by the fact that he has to be at the same level as a 18 year-old apostate, but when you take into consideration his abilities when you meet him in Awakening (and he's impressively diverse), his experience with the Wardens AND having a Fade Spirit inside of him that can make him impervious to such minor injuries as a SWORD THROUGH HIS CHEST, he should be able to raze Kirkwall on his own. The fact that DA2 downplays this so much underlines this whole "everyman" approach. He doesn't even get a cutscene of ownage, like he would if he were a Mass Effect companion. He just saves a kid's life.

Re: Louvette image: The body doesn't interest me at all (I'm way into lanky/skinny guys), but she got his smirk right. For DAA Anders, that's the most important part.

[highcastle]

SurelyForth wrote...

This is especially interesting when you consider the fact that he is, probably, incredibly powerful. He's so gimped by the fact that he has to be at the same level as a 18 year-old apostate, but when you take into consideration his abilities when you meet him in Awakening (and he's impressively diverse), his experience with the Wardens AND having a Fade Spirit inside of him that can make him impervious to such minor injuries as a SWORD THROUGH HIS CHEST, he should be able to raze Kirkwall on his own. The fact that DA2 downplays this so much underlines this whole "everyman" approach. He doesn't even get a cutscene of ownage, like he would if he were a Mass Effect companion. He just saves a kid's life.

Re: Louvette image: The body doesn't interest me at all (I'm way into lanky/skinny guys), but she got his smirk right. For DAA Anders, that's the most important part.

I also think it's interesting that his introduction is saving a life, when what most people remember are the lives he took. It's an interesting dichotomy and I have to believe it's deliberate. And I agree there's a sense of the "everyman" about Anders, which makes his ultimate decisions that much more unsettling during a first playthrough.

And about the image, I wasn't trying to attack it directly. I was just pointing out that I think DA2 Anders' look was designed for a reason and is rather refreshing in that light.

[Sialater]

highcastle wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

This is especially interesting when you consider the fact that he is, probably, incredibly powerful. He's so gimped by the fact that he has to be at the same level as a 18 year-old apostate, but when you take into consideration his abilities when you meet him in Awakening (and he's impressively diverse), his experience with the Wardens AND having a Fade Spirit inside of him that can make him impervious to such minor injuries as a SWORD THROUGH HIS CHEST, he should be able to raze Kirkwall on his own. The fact that DA2 downplays this so much underlines this whole "everyman" approach. He doesn't even get a cutscene of ownage, like he would if he were a Mass Effect companion. He just saves a kid's life.

Re: Louvette image: The body doesn't interest me at all (I'm way into lanky/skinny guys), but she got his smirk right. For DAA Anders, that's the most important part.

I also think it's interesting that his introduction is saving a life, when what most people remember are the lives he took. It's an interesting dichotomy and I have to believe it's deliberate. And I agree there's a sense of the "everyman" about Anders, which makes his ultimate decisions that much more unsettling during a first playthrough.

And about the image, I wasn't trying to attack it directly. I was just pointing out that I think DA2 Anders' look was designed for a reason and is rather refreshing in that light.

I agree it's refreshing, but she wasn't doing DA2 Anders.

And yes, I think the fact that he's been in the trenches, where even the Chantry fears to tread, speaks louder of his ultimate character than his act of terrorism. 

[AerdrieDarkmoon]

cleosilver wrote...

The Box as updated btw for those following it.

dragonage-kink.livejournal.com/4016.html

*delurks*
The cake is a lie ... there is nothing after 38

[SurelyForth]

AerdrieDarkmoon wrote...

cleosilver wrote...

The Box as updated btw for those following it.

dragonage-kink.livejournal.com/4016.html

*delurks*
The cake is a lie ... there is nothing after 38

Try logging into lj. It has a horrible tendency to hide new entries if you're not logged in.

[AerdrieDarkmoon]

Thanks Don't know why LJ keeps logging me out. *shakesfist at it* Surelyforth you are magic!!!

*huggles*

SurelyForth wrote...

AerdrieDarkmoon wrote...

cleosilver wrote...

The Box as updated btw for those following it.

dragonage-kink.livejournal.com/4016.html

*delurks*
The cake is a lie ... there is nothing after 38

Try logging into lj. It has a horrible tendency to hide new entries if you're not logged in.

[YamiSnuffles]

ElleMullineux wrote...
*Whips Yami* Draw for me!!!!

I- I'm coloring as fast as I can. *sobs*

Oh! Also, I was thinking of Justicing Anders out a tiny bit. Like, not full on glowy mode, but a few blue cracks. Yay or nay?

[highcastle]

Sialater wrote...

I agree it's refreshing, but she wasn't doing DA2 Anders.

And yes, I think the fact that he's been in the trenches, where even the Chantry fears to tread, speaks louder of his ultimate character than his act of terrorism. 

I wasn't trying to talk about the picture too much. It was just the impetus which led me to think about the body models in DA2 and the reasons why each character might've been given such an iconic look. I know she drew it before DA2 came out so it shouldn't be lumped in with the why-is-Anders-ripped hate, and that's not what I was going for at all. Probably I should have brought this up later, but c'est la vie. My day's not complete without one out-of-context, vaguely inappropriate musing.

And yes, part of what attracts me to Anders as a character is his status as a healer. And the fact that he runs a free clinic in the poorest of the slums. I also think this is part of the reason why people react so negatively to him. Most doctors swear some version of the hippocratic oath. While clearly this doesn't apply to a medieval setting (and a fantasy one at that), there is an unvoiced expectation than healers are supposed to, well, heal. Not kill. So the fact that Anders does something so dramatic is jarring because it's unexpected coming from the usual "pacifist-healer" type character. (Not that Anders was ever a pacifist, but that does seem to be a general portrayal of healer types.)

It's just one more way DA2 subverts typical expectations when it comes to character types. 

Modifié par highcastle, 25 mai 2011 - 03:16 .

[kromify]

highcastle wrote...

Sialater wrote...

I agree it's refreshing, but she wasn't doing DA2 Anders.

And yes, I think the fact that he's been in the trenches, where even the Chantry fears to tread, speaks louder of his ultimate character than his act of terrorism. 

I wasn't trying to talk about the picture too much. It was just the impetus which led me to think about the body models in DA2 and the reasons why each character might've been given such an iconic look. I know she drew it before DA2 came out so it shouldn't be lumped in with the why-is-Anders-ripped hate, and that's not what I was going for at all. Probably I should have brought this up later, but c'est la vie. My day's not complete without one out-of-context, vaguely inappropriate musing.

And yes, part of what attracts me to Anders as a character is his status as a healer. And the fact that he runs a free clinic in the poorest of the slums. I also think this is part of the reason why people react so negatively to him. Most doctors swear some version of the hippocratic oath. While clearly this doesn't apply to a medieval setting (and a fantasy one at that), there is an unvoiced expectation than healers are supposed to, well, heal. Not kill. So the fact that Anders does something so dramatic is jarring because it's unexpected coming from the usual "pacifist-healer" type character. (Not that Anders was ever a pacifist, but that does seem to be a general portrayal of healer types.)

It's just one more way DA2 subverts typical expectations when it comes to character types. 

so... anders = mordin?  :happy:

[YamiSnuffles]

kromify wrote...
so... anders = mordin?  :happy:

There's an image I don't need in my head. "Implications... disturbing."

[kromify]

YamiSnuffles wrote...

kromify wrote...
so... anders = mordin?  :happy:

There's an image I don't need in my head. "Implications... disturbing."

that's why i'm here  

[SurelyForth]

kromify wrote...
so... anders = mordin?  :happy:

I was just thinking that! Threeparts mentioned Mordin, and I was like *ding*! The big difference is, of course, emotional involvement. Mordin, being salarian and being a scientist, is far less emotionally charged as a character. He has his moments, but they are fleeting and he moves on. Anders is, to be stupid, living in a glass cage of emotion. He's driven by what he feels as much as what he sees. It makes him more dangerous and far more broken.

I think. I'm sorta not feeling so hot, so none of this makes any sense. Probably.

[highcastle]

kromify wrote...

so... anders = mordin?  :happy:

*ahem*

I am the very model of a freedom-loving magister,
Though some might say my plots became a bit overtly sinister.
I am quite good at exploding things which symbolize oppession
Though others claim my passions stems from the curse of my possession.

[kromify]

analogies are never perfect. it's fine as far as it goes

[YamiSnuffles]

SurelyForth wrote...

Anders is, to be stupid, living in a glass cage of emotion.

I love you for this. I'm thinking a mass thread vow renewal is in order. <3

[Sialater]

SurelyForth wrote...

kromify wrote...
so... anders = mordin?  :happy:

I was just thinking that! Threeparts mentioned Mordin, and I was like *ding*! The big difference is, of course, emotional involvement. Mordin, being salarian and being a scientist, is far less emotionally charged as a character. He has his moments, but they are fleeting and he moves on. Anders is, to be stupid, living in a glass cage of emotion. He's driven by what he feels as much as what he sees. It makes him more dangerous and far more broken.

I think. I'm sorta not feeling so hot, so none of this makes any sense. Probably.

Anders is Mordin, just with far more passion.  And far more breakable things in his mind.  (Fenris:  Mages in glass houses shouldn't throw fireballs.)