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[highcastle]

OMG, thank you for posting this again! I will never, ever, ever, never, ever, never get sick of watching this. *is mesmerized*

[SurelyForth]

highcastle wrote...
Missed this because I was sleeping. Or trying to, anyway. I'm just a little confused by it. The writers have said (someone with more search bar magic than me please find the quote; I'm still too coffee deprived and sleep-addled to be more effective at anything than ogling pretty colors right now) that Anders is not constrained by gender when it comes to attraction. Karl is his first whether he tells you about it or not. It happened. That he doesn't mention it doesn't transport him to a land of being straight.

Even if you don't want to think about Karl, there's the Justice aspect to consider. While their relationship isn't sexual, Anders willingly and knowingly let  a male spirit cohabitate in his own body. That's...beyond intimate.

The reason why I'm bringing this up is because sexual orientation isn't really a matter of interpretation. People are who they are. Anders' isn't even the most defining part of his character, but it is there. And he's one of the better representations of pansexuality in games (which I differentiate from bisexuality in that Anders isn't so much attracted to both genders equally as attracted to people regardless of gender). To say he came across straight to you is just a little on the offensive side because it plays into the stereotypes surrounding different sexualities. He wasn't flaming and lisping or hitting on everything that moves, so he must be straight.

I doubt that's how you meant for it to come across, but these stereotypes and such are out there, and they drive me personally absolutely batty. I'm not trying to attack anyone personally here, but I think there are misconceptions out there that should be clarified.

I think it was meant to come across this way:

If you play Awakening and DA2 as a female Hawke, you have no idea that Anders has ever been with a man. In Awakening, he flirts with women, he says he wants "a pretty girl", he talks about the templars being able to capture him when they started using female templars. Also, you meet a woman who he, ostensibly, was with AND in the end he mentions seeing himself settle down with a plump wife and several nubile mistresses. In DA2, there is really no indication that he was anything more than friends with Karl unless you're a dude Hawke. Also, it's implied that he hooked up with Isabela or the Lay Warden.

Had I not ever been on the internet, or read the guide, there is nothing to suggest to me that Anders is into guys under those circumstances and lots to indicate that he's way into women. All other information, mostly about Karl, amounts to metagaming. I know that it's there and I take it into consideration when I play, but that doesn't mean that everyone does or everyone has to. Gaider has said that Anders hooked up with Karl, but they designed the game for such an interpretation.

Thus, this isn't a straightforward case of sterotyping or homophobia, it's a case of taking the evidence presented by the game on a particular playthrough and ignoring extraneous information. If you do that, as a F!Hawke, Anders would seem to be very much into women. If you don't play Awakening and play as a M!Hawke in DA2, chances are you could rightly perceive him as being gay, with a few possible dalliances with women in his past.

As for Justice...that's not obviously something that would indicate Anders is open to relationships with men, especially if there was no other information to go off of. For one thing, WTF knows with spirits? Why would they be gendered at all? And Anders didn't know how it would work. For someone who has dedicated his life to freedom, I can't imagine he realized the extent to which Justice would have access to his thoughts and emotions. And, again, this perspective is one given outside of the game by a writer explaining his sexuality, not information that most players have access to.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 27 mai 2011 - 01:36 .

[ladyofpayne]

youtu.be/1wbBUaBSeyM
How I can get this dialogue?

Modifié par ladyofpayne, 27 mai 2011 - 01:34 .

[YamiSnuffles]

Well, she's not taking a week to get married but she lives across the country whoo America! and I'm a bridesmaid. So, it'll take a couple of days to drive and I need to be there for a few days around the wedding for the bacholorette party and such. Hopefully I'll find time to get online in all of that.

In the meantime, I will have to flood you all with monstrosities beautiful things to stare at. *thinks hard of new mash ups*

EDIT: Also, you can't tell in that, but the google image of tickets I ended up using in that gif was a pair of David Bowie tickets. That makes me giggle for some reason.

Modifié par YamiSnuffles, 27 mai 2011 - 01:36 .

[Camilladilla]

ladyofpayne wrote...

youtu.be/1wbBUaBSeyM
How I can get this dialogue?

You need to bring a rogue with about 30 cunning with you down to this cave at the Wounded Coast to open a chest, inside you'll find two biscuits dipped in caramel and chocolate that you can give to Anders towards the end of Act II.

Modifié par Camilladilla, 27 mai 2011 - 01:38 .

[Rinji the Bearded]

SurelyForth wrote...
As for Justice...that's not obviously something that would indicate Anders is open to relationships with men, especially if there was no other information to go off of. For one thing, WTF knows with spirits? Why would they be gendered at all? And Anders didn't know how it would work. For someone who has dedicated his life to freedom, I can't imagine he realized the extent to which Justice would have access to his thoughts and emotions. And, again, this perspective is one given outside of the game by a writer explaining his sexuality, not information that most players have access to.

Jennifer Helper commented somewhere about this very thing, and she was of the opinion that Anders shares a very intimate relationship with a seemingly male-gendered spirit.  Take that as you will, I just wanted to know if everyone had read that particular quote or not.  I can't quite remember where it was, but it wasn't an out-of-the-blue assumption.

As for my opinion of Anders' sexuality: I always had a feeling that the Circle mages are a bit more liberal than most people, and so suddenly making Anders bisexual, even with evidence to the contrary, did not shock me whatsoever.  And a lack of evidence is not evidence -- just because Anders said he wanted a pretty girl and etc. does not mean he's exclusively straight.  It came off more to me as describing an ideal and "normal" lifestyle, complete with white picket fence and all that.

He still likes women, I don't know why some people are so bothered by it.

[highcastle]

SurelyForth wrote...

I think it was meant to come across this way:

If you play Awakening and DA2 as a female Hawke, you have no idea that Anders has ever been with a man. In Awakening, he flirts with women, he says he wants "a pretty girl", he talks about the templars being able to capture him when they started using female templars. Also, you meet a woman who he, ostensibly, was with AND in the end he mentions seeing himself settle down with a plump wife and several nubile mistresses. In DA2, there is really no indication that he was anything more than friends with Karl unless you're a dude Hawke. Also, it's implied that he hooked up with Isabela or the Lay Warden.

Had I not ever been on the internet, or read the guide, there is nothing to suggest to me that Anders is into guys under those circumstances and lots to indicate that he's way into women. All other information, mostly about Karl, amounts to metagaming. I know that it's there and I take it into consideration when I play, but that doesn't mean that everyone does or everyone has to. Gaider has said that Anders hooked up with Anders, but they designed the game for such an interpretation.

Thus, this isn't a straightforward case of sterotyping or homophobia, it's a case of taking the evidence presented by the game on a particular playthrough and ignoring extraneous information. If you do that, as a F!Hawke, Anders would seem to be very much into women. If you don't play Awakening and play as a M!Hawke in DA2, chances are you could rightly perceive him as being gay, with a few possible dalliances with women in his past.

As for Justice...that's not obviously something that would indicate Anders is open to relationships with men, especially if there was no other information to go off of. For one thing, WTF knows with spirits? Why would they be gendered at all? And Anders didn't know how it would work. For someone who has dedicated his life to freedom, I can't imagine he realized the extent to which Justice would have access to his thoughts and emotions. And, again, this perspective is one given outside of the game by a writer explaining his sexuality, not information that most players have access to.

I can absolutely understand the Awakening interpretation (although, to me personally, he always came across as pretty open even then; just because he only explicitly flirts with f!Wardens doesn't mean he's exclusively heterosexual; though admittedly I also have a more fluid definition of sexuality than the mainstream). However, carrying that experience into DA2 is another example of meta-gaming. Hawke wouldn't have met Anders back then.

The Anders Hawke knows is one who is sharing his body with a male spirit. Justice seems to have a gender. In the Fade and during his Harbinger moments, he speaks in a characteristically male voice. Anders refers to him as male ("He is no longer my friend Justice"). Actually, even if Justice isn't typically male, the fact that Anders percieves him as such and still let him into his body should be enough to convince anyone that Anders doesn't seek out intimacy with only females. There may not be anything sexual about the relationship, but it's very personal. He'll never achieve that level of intimacy with a Hawke of any gender.

And I don't think Anders should be percieved as straight or gay. I think he should be read as pan-sexual, attracted to people regardless of gender. Admittedly, I haven't gotten too far as fem!Hawke yet, so I can't speak with great accuracy about the conversations she has with him or what precisely he says. But that's how he describes himself to m!Hawke. And again, you can't take away his sexual experiences. We know he was intimate with Karl. Because it doesn't come up in-game with fem!Hawke (and believe me, I wish it would) doesn't mean it didn't happen. He's not a case of situational sexuality. I just think he didn't see a reason to discuss it with fem!Hawke at that point (especially since he only brings it up with m!Hawke after one of them flirts with the other or m!Hawke pushes him on it; it's more relevant at that moment).

Anyway, I personally think there's enough subtext to Anders that he can be read as pretty obviously pan no matter what. But then he seems to ascribe to the Virginia Woolfe, "Room of One's Own" idea of sexuality, and that's not something most people are familiar with (I read it first in an upper level lit class at uni).

[Ninche]

Morning sweethearts!

I haven't been here in a while and I missed this thread!

Here's some Anders as a "I missed you all" gift (Hopefully it hasnt been posted yet!)


-To jump into the current discussion-

RinjiRenee wrote...

Jennifer Helper commented somewhere about this very thing, and she was of the opinion that Anders shares a very intimate relationship with a seemingly male-gendered spirit.  Take that as you will, I just wanted to know if everyone had read that particular quote or not.  I can't quite remember where it was, but it wasn't an out-of-the-blue assumption.

As for my opinion of Anders' sexuality: I always had a feeling that the Circle mages are a bit more liberal than most people, and so suddenly making Anders bisexual, even with evidence to the contrary, did not shock me whatsoever.  And a lack of evidence is not evidence -- just because Anders said he wanted a pretty girl and etc. does not mean he's exclusively straight.  It came off more to me as describing an ideal and "normal" lifestyle, complete with white picket fence and all that.

He still likes women, I don't know why some people are so bothered by it.

About bold: I've got no problem whatsoever with that statement but to be honest I thought it makes sense for a man to take a male spirit inside rather than a female one - that would be way stranger and cause more gender confusion no? I think so. But I find the whole intimacy with Justice thing lovely as well.

And I always thouht being sexually accepting and open minded was part of the appeal of mages.

Also, I hate using rl references for DA2 character behaviors but, even my most adventurous and bold bisexual male friends would generally not run around talking about banging guys - especially in groups of strangers or new friends or w.e. 

Just sayin

Modifié par Ninche, 27 mai 2011 - 01:56 .

[highcastle]

Ninche wrote...

Morning sweethearts!

I haven't been here in a while and I missed this thread!

Here's some Anders as a "I missed you all" gift (Hopefully it hasnt been posted yet!)

Can I just say, I think it's hilarious to give Anders' that staff. I wish there was some recognition of certain items by companions. I can just picture Varric's advice.

Varric: Um, Blondie. Remember the whole feathered pauldrons thing?
Anders: Yes...
Varric: The staff with a giant skull on it isn't doing you any favors, either. It's like you want the templars to arrest you.

[YamiSnuffles]

Eeeee! A friend of mine just got an orange tabby kittens and was asking for name ideas. I suggested Ser Pounce-a-Lot! Sadly, her boyfriend is the one who plays Dragon Age, so I doubt she'll go for it. Fighting the good fight, though, and all that.

[SurelyForth]

highcastle wrote...
I can absolutely understand the Awakening interpretation (although, to me personally, he always came across as pretty open even then; just because he only explicitly flirts with f!Wardens doesn't mean he's exclusively heterosexual; though admittedly I also have a more fluid definition of sexuality than the mainstream). However, carrying that experience into DA2 is another example of meta-gaming. Hawke wouldn't have met Anders back then.

I agree that, if you think about it, he comes off as open in Awakening. But that's coming from someone who is pretty open herself and has read a lot of lore (so I know about mages and their more "liberated" sexualities). But for someone who takes things at face value (I'll use my boyfriend as an example, since he's a m!Warden/Zevran fanboy but isn't someone who goes looking for subtext) he comes of as way into women and not at all that into men.

And you're right about Awakening being metagame knowledge. But it's still something that you get from the game, and not from an outside source (such as the devs on a foum)

The Anders Hawke knows is one who is sharing his body with a male spirit. Justice seems to have a gender. In the Fade and during his Harbinger moments, he speaks in a characteristically male voice. Anders refers to him as male ("He is no longer my friend Justice"). Actually, even if Justice isn't typically male, the fact that Anders percieves him as such and still let him into his body should be enough to convince anyone that Anders doesn't seek out intimacy with only females. There may not be anything sexual about the relationship, but it's very personal. He'll never achieve that level of intimacy with a Hawke of any gender.

See, this is specifically I  get caught up on the argument: If someone told me they had a dude spirit in their head, I would not assume that it was an extension of their sexuality. You can be emotionally intimate with someone that you have no sexual attraction to. Again, if you want to see it as a sign that Anders seeks intimacy with men, you can. But I don't think it's an obvious conclusion and it's definitely not one I came to on my own.

And I don't think Anders should be percieved as straight or gay. I think he should be read as pan-sexual, attracted to people regardless of gender. Admittedly, I haven't gotten too far as fem!Hawke yet, so I can't speak with great accuracy about the conversations she has with him or what precisely he says. But that's how he describes himself to m!Hawke. And again, you can't take away his sexual experiences. We know he was intimate with Karl. Because it doesn't come up in-game with fem!Hawke (and believe me, I wish it would) doesn't mean it didn't happen. He's not a case of situational sexuality. I just think he didn't see a reason to discuss it with fem!Hawke at that point (especially since he only brings it up with m!Hawke after one of them flirts with the other or m!Hawke pushes him on it; it's more relevant at that moment).

Anders says nothing about Karl or being with men to F!Hawke. Ever. Besides the Act 1 conversation, I'm pretty positive all the rest are the same regardless of gender (oh, except for the line at the Gallows about "our children"). Outside of his banter with Isabela about the Pearl, his line about the Fereldan Circle and his telling her that "maybe a year ago, we could have had something", there's nothing he says to F!Hawke that touches upon who he's been with in the past or how he views his own sexuality (I guess "love was just a game" is kinda, but that just indicates sex without emotional attachment).

ETA: Again, this is just all to point out how someone could (easily) see Anders as straight, or just never assume that he's anything but straight based on proof presented by the game. There are issues of straight privilege, yeah, but I'd hesitate to call someone's interpretation of a video game character out, especially since Gaider has admitted that all interpretations are, ultimately, correct. On purpose, and to be as inclusive as possible.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 27 mai 2011 - 02:20 .

[Rinji the Bearded]

SurelyForth wrote...

Anders says nothing about Karl or being with men to F!Hawke. Ever. Besides the Act 1 conversation, I'm pretty positive all the rest are the same regardless of gender (oh, except for the line at the Gallows about "our children"). Outside of his banter with Isabela about the Pearl, his line about the Fereldan Circle and his telling her that "maybe a year ago, we could have had something", there's nothing he says to F!Hawke that touches upon who he's been with in the past or how he views his own sexuality (I guess "love was just a game" is kinda, but that just indicates sex without emotional attachment).

Did he really need to bring up Karl to a f!Hawke?  It seems like in bringing it up to M!Hawke, he was just trying to relate with him.  He was obviously already attracted to him, why not test the waters?

Again I'm remembering a dev comment that was posted elsewhere, this time it was Gaider who said something about this very thing.  I don't think his pansexuality merely goes away because you happen to play a female Hawke.  It's just something he need not mention.

I mean, put yourself in his shoes for a second.  If you were a bisexual mage hitting on a woman, would you want to bring up "oh yeah, i sleep with men" right away?  Might be a little off-putting.

[highcastle]

SurelyForth wrote...

highcastle wrote...
I can absolutely understand the Awakening interpretation (although, to me personally, he always came across as pretty open even then; just because he only explicitly flirts with f!Wardens doesn't mean he's exclusively heterosexual; though admittedly I also have a more fluid definition of sexuality than the mainstream). However, carrying that experience into DA2 is another example of meta-gaming. Hawke wouldn't have met Anders back then.

I agree that, if you think about it, he comes off as open in Awakening. But that's coming from someone who is pretty open herself and has read a lot of lore (so I know about mages and their more "liberated" sexualities). But for someone who takes things at face value (I'll use my boyfriend as an example, since he's a m!Warden/Zevran fanboy but isn't someone who goes looking for subtext) he comes of as way into women and not at all that into men.

And you're right about Awakening being metagame knowledge. But it's still something that you get from the game, and not from an outside source (such as the devs on a foum)

The Anders Hawke knows is one who is sharing his body with a male spirit. Justice seems to have a gender. In the Fade and during his Harbinger moments, he speaks in a characteristically male voice. Anders refers to him as male ("He is no longer my friend Justice"). Actually, even if Justice isn't typically male, the fact that Anders percieves him as such and still let him into his body should be enough to convince anyone that Anders doesn't seek out intimacy with only females. There may not be anything sexual about the relationship, but it's very personal. He'll never achieve that level of intimacy with a Hawke of any gender.

See, this is specifically I  get caught up on the argument: If someone told me they had a dude spirit in their head, I would not assume that it was an extension of their sexuality. You can be emotionally intimate with someone that you have no sexual attraction to. Again, if you want to see it as a sign that Anders seeks intimacy with men, you can. But I don't think it's an obvious conclusion and it's definitely not one I came to on my own.

And I don't think Anders should be percieved as straight or gay. I think he should be read as pan-sexual, attracted to people regardless of gender. Admittedly, I haven't gotten too far as fem!Hawke yet, so I can't speak with great accuracy about the conversations she has with him or what precisely he says. But that's how he describes himself to m!Hawke. And again, you can't take away his sexual experiences. We know he was intimate with Karl. Because it doesn't come up in-game with fem!Hawke (and believe me, I wish it would) doesn't mean it didn't happen. He's not a case of situational sexuality. I just think he didn't see a reason to discuss it with fem!Hawke at that point (especially since he only brings it up with m!Hawke after one of them flirts with the other or m!Hawke pushes him on it; it's more relevant at that moment).

Anders says nothing about Karl or being with men to F!Hawke. Ever. Besides the Act 1 conversation, I'm pretty positive all the rest are the same regardless of gender (oh, except for the line at the Gallows about "our children"). Outside of his banter with Isabela about the Pearl, his line about the Fereldan Circle and his telling her that "maybe a year ago, we could have had something", there's nothing he says to F!Hawke that touches upon who he's been with in the past or how he views his own sexuality (I guess "love was just a game" is kinda, but that just indicates sex without emotional attachment).

I know Anders says nothing about Karl to fem!Hawke. I wasn't sure if he still had the "I'm attracted to a whole person" dialogue, though. If not, it's a shame. I think it's one of the more mature and nuanced expressions of attraction and orientation in this or any medium, really. We still see so many camp or stereotyped portrayals of anyone with an alternative sexuality in film and television, and to see a video game actually handle it well was very heartening. I really, really wish fem!Hawke got the full dialogue now, because it's too good a conversation to be absent from those playthroughs.

There are some minor differences in Anders' talks with m!Hawke and fem!Hawke throughout the Acts. I've watched a couple youtube videos and recognized a few lines with minor variations, which actually impressed me because it made it seem like Anders approached his relationship with each gender a bit differently. m!Hawke, for instance, doesn't get the same level of "I'm going to break your heart" warnings as fem!Hawke.

As for the Justice thing, you're right. It's a matter of interpretation. I think for many people, sex and intimacy are closely linked, but that's not obviously always the case. To me, however, it was an indicator the moment we heard about it that Anders might be the same-sex romance option (before we got confirmation on the everyone's-bi thing). Granted, there's not a good real world correlation for the act of sharing your body with another man (okay, there is, but I was trying to keep this innuendo and gutter-mind free; clearly I failed).

In short, I suppose I wish the devs made it more obvious that Anders' history is tangled up with both genders. Then we wouldn't have to debate this. But I still reject the idea of "reading" Anders as straight. He's not. Just because he doesn't talk about it with you doesn't mean it doesn't happen. And maybe that's a bit meta, but it's still the truth. And I'm sure he and Hawke had more than just those few conversations in the years they were together. His history probably came up at some point, even if we don't see it on-screen.

[SurelyForth]

RinjiRenee wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

Anders says nothing about Karl or being with men to F!Hawke. Ever. Besides the Act 1 conversation, I'm pretty positive all the rest are the same regardless of gender (oh, except for the line at the Gallows about "our children"). Outside of his banter with Isabela about the Pearl, his line about the Fereldan Circle and his telling her that "maybe a year ago, we could have had something", there's nothing he says to F!Hawke that touches upon who he's been with in the past or how he views his own sexuality (I guess "love was just a game" is kinda, but that just indicates sex without emotional attachment).

Did he really need to bring up Karl to a f!Hawke?  It seems like in bringing it up to M!Hawke, he was just trying to relate with him.  He was obviously already attracted to him, why not test the waters?

Again I'm remembering a dev comment that was posted elsewhere, this time it was Gaider who said something about this very thing.  I don't think his pansexuality merely goes away because you happen to play a female Hawke.  It's just something he need not mention.

I mean, put yourself in his shoes for a second.  If you were a bisexual mage hitting on a woman, would you want to bring up "oh yeah, i sleep with men" right away?  Might be a little off-putting.

No, he doesn't. I never said that he did, and I know why he wouldn't.

But if he doesn't, Hawke has no idea that he's been with another man before. She would also have no idea that he's pansexual, by the information given in game. He is presented to the player playing as a female Hawke as a man who is interested in her, a woman, and who has been involved with at least one woman in the past.  Any other information would have to be gleaned from playthroughs as a male Hawke or seeking out dev comments on the subject.

That is seriously all I am saying.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 27 mai 2011 - 02:29 .

[Rinji the Bearded]

SurelyForth wrote...

But if he doesn't, Hawke has no idea that he's been with another man before. She would also have no idea that he's pansexual, by the information given in game. He is presented to the player playing as a female Hawke as a man who is interested in her, a woman, and who has been involved with at least one woman in the past.  Any other information would have to be gleaned from playthroughs as a male Hawke or seeking out dev comments on the subject.

That is seriously all I am saying.

In that same coin, the male Hawke can almost safely assume that he's only ever been with men.  I don't remember any kind of dialogue that would suggest he had been with women, can anyone else?

I do get what you're saying, but I don't think what our Hawkes think really takes away the fact that Anders likes both genders.

[highcastle]

RinjiRenee wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

But if he doesn't, Hawke has no idea that he's been with another man before. She would also have no idea that he's pansexual, by the information given in game. He is presented to the player playing as a female Hawke as a man who is interested in her, a woman, and who has been involved with at least one woman in the past.  Any other information would have to be gleaned from playthroughs as a male Hawke or seeking out dev comments on the subject.

That is seriously all I am saying.

In that same coin, the male Hawke can almost safely assume that he's only ever been with men.  I don't remember any kind of dialogue that would suggest he had been with women, can anyone else?

I do get what you're saying, but I don't think what our Hawkes think really takes away the fact that Anders likes both genders.

Well, there's the banter with Izzy about a mutual encounter in the Pearl.

But I agree with you. I don't think Anders needs to spell it out in boldface for Hawke to pick up on the subtext. And I still think it's probable he and Hawke had the full-disclosure talk later on. It just occurs off-screen. Should it have been in the game? Yes. I wish it were, I really do.

But Rinji is right in saying the Karl talk comes up when Anders or Hawke have already flirted with each other at that point, or if Hawke pushes the issue. So it can be read as Anders trying to see if there's any hope of reciprocation at some point. With fem!Hawke, it's not an issue. In fact, if he hopes for reciprocation, he's probably better off keeping it to himself (as he does) because heteronormativity seems to be, well, the norm.

[ashyraine]

As someone who was raised in an evangelical Christian home (not sure what I am other than Anderstian these days lol) the closest RL example I can think of would be their belief of Christ living inside them in spirit form. And the intimate relationship that entails with the spirit there to comfort and love.
Don't want to start a religious flamewar here but that's what the whole Anders/Justice and Wynne/Faith brought to mind for me. Moreso Wynne/Faith admittedly.
Also my Hawkes of both gender are very glad that Anders is Hawkesexual

[SurelyForth]

RinjiRenee wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

But if he doesn't, Hawke has no idea that he's been with another man before. She would also have no idea that he's pansexual, by the information given in game. He is presented to the player playing as a female Hawke as a man who is interested in her, a woman, and who has been involved with at least one woman in the past.  Any other information would have to be gleaned from playthroughs as a male Hawke or seeking out dev comments on the subject.

That is seriously all I am saying.

In that same coin, the male Hawke can almost safely assume that he's only ever been with men.  I don't remember any kind of dialogue that would suggest he had been with women, can anyone else?

I do get what you're saying, but I don't think what our Hawkes think really takes away the fact that Anders likes both genders.

He has a banter with Isabela about the Lay Warden where it's implied that he's been with a woman. 

I never said that what our Hawke thinks takes away from the fact that Anders likes both genders,  and I agree that he does. It's my canon, with my F!Hawke, that he was with Karl. I metagame it because it fits with my pre-existing opinion of him as a character, it adds a lot of nuance to what happens in Tranquility, and it's something my Hawke would appreciate, being similarly fluid in her own sexuality.

However, the game allows for people to roleplay him as gay or straight or anywhere in between with nothing really to break up that illusion. To say that someone viewing him as straight in their playthrough is offensive isn't fair because the game itself allows such an interpretation. If they were bashing the M!Hawke/Anders pairing (or getting huffy about m/m fic or art) and calling it OOC, or wrong,  then yeah. Bombs away. But the OP wasn't, at all.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 27 mai 2011 - 02:47 .

[highcastle]

SurelyForth wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

But if he doesn't, Hawke has no idea that he's been with another man before. She would also have no idea that he's pansexual, by the information given in game. He is presented to the player playing as a female Hawke as a man who is interested in her, a woman, and who has been involved with at least one woman in the past.  Any other information would have to be gleaned from playthroughs as a male Hawke or seeking out dev comments on the subject.

That is seriously all I am saying.

In that same coin, the male Hawke can almost safely assume that he's only ever been with men.  I don't remember any kind of dialogue that would suggest he had been with women, can anyone else?

I do get what you're saying, but I don't think what our Hawkes think really takes away the fact that Anders likes both genders.

He has a banter with Isabela about the Lay Warden where it's implied that he's been with a woman. 

I never said that what our Hawke thinks takes away from the fact that Anders likes both genders,  and I agree that he does. It's my canon, with my F!Hawke, that he was with Karl. I metagame it because it fits with my pre-existing opinion of him as a character, it adds a lot of nuance to what happens in Tranquility, and it's something my Hawke would appreciate, being similarly fluid in her own sexuality.

However, the game allows for people to roleplay him as gay or straight or anywhere in between with nothing really to break up that illusion. To say that someone viewing him as straight in their playthrough is offensive isn't fair because the game itself allows such an interpretation. If they were bashing the M!Hawke/Anders pairing (or getting huffy about m/m fic or art) and calling it OOC, or wrong,  then yeah. Bombs away. But the OP wasn't, at all.

But...I disagree that the game allows that interpretation. The knowledge is there, whether in sub-text, whether meta-knowledge, it's still there. And for someone to plug their fingers in their ears and say, "Well, he didn't explicitly tell me he's bi so he must not me" is offensive when you consider this particular orientation is often told it doesn't exist. (How many times have bi men heard they're really just gay, or bi women been told they're doing it to get the attention? But I don't really want to open the can of worms that is real-life stereotypes except to say their existence means denying Anders' sexuality can come across as offensive. It might not be intended as such, but it's salt in an old wound.)

I'm really not trying to pick a fight over this, though. I'm not trying to attack anyone (just want to make that clear) and I agree with you on a lot of points. Just not this one.

[YamiSnuffles]

I don't think that anyone is arguing against Anders' canonical orientation. Just that, player perception, can be different.

When I first came to this thread I had only played as f!Hawke. I never got the dialogue about Karl and I never got the dialogue about loving the whole person. Had I not come to this thread, I still wouldn't know about either. I had no problem adjusting my views on Anders sexuality when I learned more from other players, the writers, etc. but the fact is, my perception did change.

Anders reacted to Karl the same way I would react to the loss of a close friend. So that's all I assumed they were. As for Justice, I never once thought about that as an extension of Anders' sexuality until Ms. Hepler commented on it. Honestly, if I was going to take a spirit into me, it would be a female even thought I am a straight female. For the same reason that- say- I prefer being examined by a female doctor or don't mind being naked in a female locker room.

I guess what I'm saying is, it is possible for people to perceive something different. I just go with what I'm given in game. I knew he liked women since he stated as much. I did not know he liked men. I understand perfectly well why he doesn't make a point of saying it. I'm just saying, that I was left clueless because of that. It does not in any way mean he's suddenly straight, just that I wasn't going to assume otherwise. I know there is evidence to show that Anders is pretty open, but I just don't think about people's sexuality much if at all. I don't look for sexual subtext in fiction or real life. I just don't.

So, to sum up... Anders=pansexual and player can= clueless. I know I was.

[SurelyForth]

ElleMullineux wrote...

I'm a big fan of the non-canon off-screen full-disclosure chat. I get the impression that they are far too honest with each other on the friendmanced path (can't comment on rival) to not have had this conversation. (The pure obviousness of his lying - and the fact that Hawke can call him on it later - in the Justice quest seems to say to me that as a rule he doesn't lie to Hawke).
But that's just the way I see a healthy relationship - you talk about all the messed up stuff that you got up to once upon a time.

God. I so agree on the overshare. I don't think Anders could get away with "I'd drown us both in blood..." otherwise.