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[Rinji the Bearded]

SurelyForth wrote...

However, the game allows for people to roleplay him as gay or straight or anywhere in between with nothing really to break up that illusion. To say that someone viewing him as straight in their playthrough is offensive isn't fair because the game itself allows such an interpretation. If they were bashing the M!Hawke/Anders pairing (or getting huffy about m/m fic or art) and calling it OOC, or wrong,  then yeah. Bombs away. But the OP wasn't, at all.

I get you completely.  I just think imagining him as purely straight or purely gay would be taking away from his character, and I do so love Anders' character (probably in unhealthy levels).  But that's just my opinion.

Edit -- OH CRAP I'm top post, um...



Can't go wrong with this one.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 27 mai 2011 - 03:02 .

[highcastle]

YamiSnuffles wrote...

I don't think that anyone is arguing against Anders' canonical orientation. Just that, player perception, can be different.

When I first came to this thread I had only played as f!Hawke. I never got the dialogue about Karl and I never got the dialogue about loving the whole person. Had I not come to this thread, I still wouldn't know about either. I had no problem adjusting my views on Anders sexuality when I learned more from other players, the writers, etc. but the fact is, my perception did change.

Anders reacted to Karl the same way I would react to the loss of a close friend. So that's all I assumed they were. As for Justice, I never once thought about that as an extension of Anders' sexuality until Ms. Hepler commented on it. Honestly, if I was going to take a spirit into me, it would be a female even thought I am a straight female. For the same reason that- say- I prefer being examined by a female doctor or don't mind being naked in a female locker room.

I guess what I'm saying is, it is possible for people to perceive something different. I just go with what I'm given in game. I knew he liked women since he stated as much. I did not know he liked men. I understand perfectly well why he doesn't make a point of saying it. I'm just saying, that I was left clueless because of that. It does not in any way mean he's suddenly straight, just that I wasn't going to assume otherwise. I know there is evidence to show that Anders is pretty open, but I just don't think about people's sexuality much if at all. I don't look for sexual subtext in fiction or real life. I just don't.

So, to sum up... Anders=pansexual and player can= clueless. I know I was.

I reluctantly agree with most of this. This is basically the state of the world we live in. Heteronormativity. We assume people are straight unless given direct evidence to the contrary. I personally think that's a problem, but it's not an individual problem. It's a societal issue.

In short, I can get behind the Anders=pan and player=clueless logic.

[SurelyForth]

highcastle wrote...
But...I disagree that the game allows that interpretation. The knowledge is there, whether in sub-text, whether meta-knowledge, it's still there. And for someone to plug their fingers in their ears and say, "Well, he didn't explicitly tell me he's bi so he must not me" is offensive when you consider this particular orientation is often told it doesn't exist. (How many times have bi men heard they're really just gay, or bi women been told they're doing it to get the attention? But I don't really want to open the can of worms that is real-life stereotypes except to say their existence means denying Anders' sexuality can come across as offensive. It might not be intended as such, but it's salt in an old wound.)

I'm really not trying to pick a fight over this, though. I'm not trying to attack anyone (just want to make that clear) and I agree with you on a lot of points. Just not this one.

But Gaider has said that the bit about Karl is ommitted from F!Hawke playthroughs so that the player can freely make assumptions when it comes to their playthroughs. And, beyond Karl, there is literally no subtext in a F!Hawke game to indicate that Anders has been with men or is attracted to men. It's like Yami says- if you only play F!Hawke and don't look for more information, you can see him as straight and there is nothing that you have to handwave or ignore.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 27 mai 2011 - 03:11 .

[highcastle]

SurelyForth wrote...

highcastle wrote...
But...I disagree that the game allows that interpretation. The knowledge is there, whether in sub-text, whether meta-knowledge, it's still there. And for someone to plug their fingers in their ears and say, "Well, he didn't explicitly tell me he's bi so he must not me" is offensive when you consider this particular orientation is often told it doesn't exist. (How many times have bi men heard they're really just gay, or bi women been told they're doing it to get the attention? But I don't really want to open the can of worms that is real-life stereotypes except to say their existence means denying Anders' sexuality can come across as offensive. It might not be intended as such, but it's salt in an old wound.)

I'm really not trying to pick a fight over this, though. I'm not trying to attack anyone (just want to make that clear) and I agree with you on a lot of points. Just not this one.

But Gaider has said that the bit about Karl is ommitted from F!Hawke playthroughs so that the player can freely make assumptions when it comes to their playthroughs. And, beyond Karl, there is literally no subtext in a F!Hawke game to indicate that Anders has been with men or is attracted to men. It's like Yami says- if you only play F!Hawke and don't look for more information, you can see him as straight and there is nothing that you have to handwave or ignore.

I'm going to let this go after this because everyone has their own opinions. But I still see subtext between Anders and Justice, between Anders and Karl (even without the admission), and in Anders' everybody-was-kissing-everybody comments. He seems like an open, fluid person to me. But I also recognize that my definition of sexuality is more fluid than many other's. At this point, I think it's a case of agree to disagree.

[YamiSnuffles]

@ Surely

Anders is finished!


EDIT: Balls, I just noticed a coloring problem. *scampers off to fix it*

Modifié par YamiSnuffles, 27 mai 2011 - 03:28 .

[SurelyForth]

YamiSnuffles wrote...

@ Surely

Anders is finished!

EDIT: Balls, I just noticed a coloring problem. *scampers off to fix it*

Yes!!!

[AnniLau]

Awww, no one Tweeted Howden the gif?



I'm almost tempted to start a Twitter account, but I know I'd never use it for anything else.

[YamiSnuffles]

Ugh, I give up. I keep uploading a new file that fixes that parts that I colored outside of the lines, but deviantArt refuses to change the actual image.

*futile fist shaking ensues*

[andrastepreserveme]

Yami, can I get on some sort of waiting list? Would love to get another pic from you at some point soonish.

Modifié par mandamcmoo, 27 mai 2011 - 03:38 .

[Ninche]

ElleMullineux wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

ElleMullineux wrote...

I'm a big fan of the non-canon off-screen full-disclosure chat. I get the impression that they are far too honest with each other on the friendmanced path (can't comment on rival) to not have had this conversation. (The pure obviousness of his lying - and the fact that Hawke can call him on it later - in the Justice quest seems to say to me that as a rule he doesn't lie to Hawke).
But that's just the way I see a healthy relationship - you talk about all the messed up stuff that you got up to once upon a time.

God. I so agree on the overshare. I don't think Anders could get away with "I'd drown us both in blood..." otherwise.

I know... I would be running a mile if after 6-8 max conversations a guy I fancied came out with that.

Hehehe even if you were a super-powerful confident and murderous assasin Hawkette? I think it'd be right down your alley ;P

Here's a link to the person's gallery (I know I'm waaaaay late but now that I don't have the deadlines looming excuse I got whipped into scrubbing the shower =( )

solfieri.deviantart.com/

That girl is still in Act2 and is loving Anders so far - but boy she's got no idea what's coming. I wonder if she will keep loving him after Jenga? 

And I'll just throw that in there: First glimpse at Awakening Anders and I thought GAAAY He made my gaydar sense tingle. It might have been the outfit and the gold earring and the whole "He goes to extreme measures to look gorgeous all the time" thing - but he did go on about women so I classified him as a promiscuous Bmage and that was that. DA2 Anders didn't give me aaaaany gay vibes at all until the whole m!Hawke Karl conversation.So I can see how someone who doesn't think about stuff like that and generally play with everyone's sexuality in her mind just to see if it would work (like me) can be really surprised by the whole bisexual thing. 

I also stand by my belief that every playthrough is like a separate universe - so the decision Hawke makes and the reletanships he/she develops and the lines and responses he/she gets are all there is. Which would mean that I feel like every Anders depending on Hawke's character and actions is like a different person - all Anders lines and conversations should not be jumbled into one in the quest of establsihing the ONE AND TRUE ANDERS. I'm awfully incoherent today but what I'm trying to get across is that: if a player didn't realise Anders was bisexual in her playthrough because the issue never came up and she thought of him as straight that's fine - that Anders in that universe is straight. And that's okay. It's absolutely fine to read characters any way you want and RP with them any way you want - that's the point right? 

Anders is like a box of chocolates for the player - he's just what you need and comes in lots of different flavours that would satisfy any Hawke's needs!


@YamiSnuffles: *squee* you make your Anders Soooo shiny I love your style - I was saying the other day your paintings look like animation frames - double love from me

Modifié par Ninche, 27 mai 2011 - 03:41 .

[YamiSnuffles]

mandamcmoo wrote...

Yami, can I get on some sort of waiting list? Would love to get another pic from you at some point soonish.

Sure thing.

Maker, some form of tangible list might actually be a good idea at this point. I'm used to keeping track of the single commission I'm working on. Not a half dozen or so.

Also, I love me some Anders, but I wanted to make sure everyone knows they can commission pretty much anything.

[ashyraine]

AnniLau wrote...

Awww, no one Tweeted Howden the gif?



I'm almost tempted to start a Twitter account, but I know I'd never use it for anything else.

SIgh. I guess I can be brave and do it. Though I about died when he tweeted me back last time. Be prepared to rez me  if he responds to this : )

[andrastepreserveme]

ashyraine wrote...

SIgh. I guess I can be brave and do it. Though I about died when he tweeted me back last time. Be prepared to rez me  if he responds to this : )

Is present for moral support.

[YamiSnuffles]

I would tweet it to him since I made it... but I'm too lazy to make a Twitter account. As it is, it's bad enough that he saw my Jazz Handers/Anders Howden picture, haha.

[andrastepreserveme]

YamiSnuffles wrote...

I would tweet it to him since I made it... but I'm too lazy to make a Twitter account. As it is, it's bad enough that he saw my Jazz Handers/Anders Howden picture, haha.

Sorry for that! Though in fairness, he LOVED it.

[ashyraine]

YamiSnuffles wrote...

I would tweet it to him since I made it... but I'm too lazy to make a Twitter account. As it is, it's bad enough that he saw my Jazz Handers/Anders Howden picture, haha.

Aww but he loved it! I bet he'll love this one too. Maybe multiple people should tweet it just in case I know I haven't been getting the txts with my @mentions lately. I didn't know I actually had *two* replies from the man. Probably for the best lol

[YamiSnuffles]

Drawing Fenris is weird. He gives me conflicting feelings. On the one hand I love his floppy hair and beautiful eyes. On the other hand... he's like a giraffe. But, on topic, it's definitely a departure from drawing Anders.

mandamcmoo wrote...

Sorry for that! Though in fairness, he LOVED it.

No it's fine. I'll admit to squeeing a little that he liked it. It's still makes me self conscious though, haha.

[andrastepreserveme]

YamiSnuffles wrote...

No it's fine. I'll admit to squeeing a little that he liked it. It's still makes me self conscious though, haha.

You should have heard me when he replied to the tweet. Honestly I'm a rational woman.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

highcastle wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

highcastle wrote...
But...I disagree that the game allows that interpretation. The knowledge is there, whether in sub-text, whether meta-knowledge, it's still there. And for someone to plug their fingers in their ears and say, "Well, he didn't explicitly tell me he's bi so he must not me" is offensive when you consider this particular orientation is often told it doesn't exist. (How many times have bi men heard they're really just gay, or bi women been told they're doing it to get the attention? But I don't really want to open the can of worms that is real-life stereotypes except to say their existence means denying Anders' sexuality can come across as offensive. It might not be intended as such, but it's salt in an old wound.)

I'm really not trying to pick a fight over this, though. I'm not trying to attack anyone (just want to make that clear) and I agree with you on a lot of points. Just not this one.

But Gaider has said that the bit about Karl is ommitted from F!Hawke playthroughs so that the player can freely make assumptions when it comes to their playthroughs. And, beyond Karl, there is literally no subtext in a F!Hawke game to indicate that Anders has been with men or is attracted to men. It's like Yami says- if you only play F!Hawke and don't look for more information, you can see him as straight and there is nothing that you have to handwave or ignore.

I'm going to let this go after this because everyone has their own opinions. But I still see subtext between Anders and Justice, between Anders and Karl (even without the admission), and in Anders' everybody-was-kissing-everybody comments. He seems like an open, fluid person to me. But I also recognize that my definition of sexuality is more fluid than many other's. At this point, I think it's a case of agree to disagree.

Also, I know plenty of straight guys who have a lot of subtext between them and male friends. So much subtext that the yaoi fangirls squeal when they wrestle on the floor. I've heard a straight guy spend ten minutes on ventrillo explaining the... things he was going to do to another straight guy when they finally met, in blush-inducingly erotic detail. Sexuality is incredibly varied, and sometimes someone can play with different possible orientations when they're young, before deciding where their interests tend to lie.

Definitions of sexuality are all over the place. I wouldn't necessarily consider a guy who has had romantic involvement with one or two guys in his life bisexual, just like I don't consider Dan Savage to be bi just because he slept with his high school girlfriend. Dan identifies as gay, so that's how I see him.

I think there's a difference between "identifies as straight" and "exclusively straight." Like, do you consider Ramona Flowers from Scott Pilgrim to be bi? Does having a romantic relationships with one or two girls over the course of a lifetime mostly filled with dudes make a girl bi, if she feels like she identifies primarily as straight? We don't know how Anders portrays his past relationships to F!Hawke offscreen, if she does ask.

(Edit: Bah, Ninche said what I wanted to so much better, above).

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 27 mai 2011 - 04:23 .

[highcastle]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
Also, I know plenty of straight guys who have a lot of subtext between them and male friends. So much subtext that the yaoi fangirls squeal when they wrestle on the floor. I've heard a straight guy spend ten minutes on ventrillo explaining the... things he was going to do to another straight guy when they finally met, in blush-inducingly erotic detail. Sexuality is incredibly varied, and sometimes someone can play with different possible orientations when they're young, before deciding where their interests tend to lie.

Definitions of sexuality are all over the place. I wouldn't necessarily consider a guy who has had romantic involvement with one or two guys in his life bisexual, just like I don't consider Dan Savage to be bi just because he slept with his high school girlfriend. Dan identifies as gay, so I consider him gay.

I think there's a difference between "identifies as straight" and "exclusively straight." Like, do you consider Ramona Flowers from Scott Pilgrim to be bi? Does having a romantic relationships with one or two girls over the course of a lifetime mostly filled with dudes make a girl bi, if she feels like she identifies primarily as straight? We don't know how Anders portrays his past relationships to F!Hawke offscreen, if she does ask.

(Edit: Bah, Ninche said what I wanted to so much better, above).

Like I said, I'm pretty much trying to stay out of it now. I've said my piece, put my beliefs out there and my own personal experiences. My view of sexuality and gender can pretty much be summed up by Virginia Woolfe's "A Room of One's Own," which is totally worth reading regardless of this discussion. So...yeah.

And to make everyone feel better, here's Yami's lovely rendition of Noah and Anders.

[YamiSnuffles]

I probably shouldn't giggle like a school girl over my own art, but in that case I do.  I'm full of myself self aware enough to say it's adorable. It's so warm and fuzzy. Like a kitten in springtime.

[AnniLau]

Yay!

[ashyraine]

A_HOWDZ Adam Howden
@
@AshyRaine hahahaha ;D


So uhh I think he liked that one too