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[SurelyForth]

highcastle wrote...

I'm not sure how much I agree with the Justice-makes-Anders-okay-with-commitment thing. For one thing, we don't know he wouldn't be alright with commitment at an earlier time. He just lacked the opportunity. His whole "In the Circle, love was just a game" speech stated that it was virtually impossible for the mages to commit to someone without the templars stopping them or hurting them. To me this implied that Anders may have wanted that commitment, but found it denied to him. So I interpreted his relationship with Hawke as very much something he, not Justice, wanted to do. It couples nicely with the the whole "Justice does not approve of my obsession with you."

This isn't to say there might not be traces of Kristoff still in Justice and thus Anders. Wouldn't that be sad? Not only do you have to contend with your own bad memories, but you have two other sets of bad times to bog you down. It's no wonder Anders get depressed at times.

Well, Anders does say in Awakening that he never cared much for commitment. And he calls Alistair/Anora "the old ball and chain" AND when he jokes about settling down with his plump wife, he throws in the nubile mistresses. Some of it is joking, but it indicates to me that it was part of his character and probably a purposeful one. It's yet another way that he's been changed by his merging with Justice and by his commitment to the cause itself.

And I'm not saying that Anders would never be able to commit to someone, even if Justice had never entered the picture. But I don't think he would have latched onto someone the way he latches onto Hawke if it weren't for Justice. I stated already that I think it's because he doesn't think that anyone else will accept him the way Hawke does, but I am open to seeing Justice's influence, too.

And what Justice might have transmitted to Anders via his memories is separate from what he himself feels during DA2. So just because he's felt what Kristoff felt for Aura doesn't mean he himself is seeking it out, it just means that Anders might have also felt it and sees it as something more satisfactory than the relationships he's had before.

TOP? Great. Uh...Wil and Anders by Yami (stuck together by me, since I was working on a new banner):

Modifié par SurelyForth, 01 juin 2011 - 04:54 .

[Mekarah]

highcastle wrote...

Oh man, wouldn't that be rough? Especially as he got stabbed by the templars himself. So how many times has Anders died now? He could be like the guy from The Darkness! ("That was the eighth time I died...")

And it's an interesting idea, it is. I'm not sure it's my particular interpretation, is all. And I'm in no way influenced by the fact that I've written reams of fan-fic about Anders' motivation and didn't take that slant into consideration; nope, not at all.

He's like the cylon of mages!

I also agree it is an interesting idea, but disagree as well. Well, maybe that's too harsh of a term, but I sort of feel like the seeds for wanting something more were already there. He does talk about wanting to settle down with a pretty girl/fat wife/mistresses or whatever in Awakening right? I'm only halfway through it so I might not have gotten to it yet (well, I got the pretty girl one, but that's it). So it may have been that he always sort of wanted it, just could never have it. I get the feeling from Anders that all he wants is a normal life for mages, and I feel like he must include himself in that, right? As a sort of end goal, anyway?

Anyway, just my 2c. I still like the idea, even if I'm not sure I agree with it.

ETA: I see I was ninja-proven wrong about Awakening Anders in the post above me. Lolz. Oh well, I'll leave this here anyway

Modifié par Mekarah, 01 juin 2011 - 04:50 .

[berelinde]

If committed love was something Anders always wanted but never allowed himself, it would certainly explain why he's so bad at it. Those lines!

Poor guy. He has Justice's memory of Kristoff's love, first-person memory of multiple deaths, especially if you kill him in the Fade, and no memory at all (but plenty of guilt) about the blackouts he had prior to meeting Hawke (assuming friendship romance has halted the blackouts).

[CalJones]

My theory is that he is commitment-phobic around Awakening because of what he endured in the Circle. As he says in DA2, templars finding out about a relationship in the Circle gave them ammunition to use against you.

But now he's been apostate for a while and he's a bit older so his perspectives and circumstances are different. That and Justice, of course.

[Sialater]

I find it funny because of the melodrama of his pickup lines. Maybe that's how Kristoff talked to his wife.

[highcastle]

DAA!Anders also came across as someone who deflects with humor quite a bit. I'm not entirely sure how much we should take everything he says at face-value. On the flip side, I'm not comfortable with just dismissing statements whole-cloth, either. In the end, I'd have to say the truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

I absolutely agree that I think one of the reasons he latches onto Hawke is for acceptance. When Hawke keeps coming back even after knowing what Anders is--and from a relatively early time in their relationship, too--has to make Anders feel a bit more normal and less like a monster. So in ways, yes, I do believe merging with Justice played a big role in Anders' devotion. I'm just not sure how much of a role Kristoff's memories or Justice's own feelings seem to play (especially because Justice at first seems so reluctant about things).

@Mekarah: Lol, Anders as a cylon! Of course, that'd mean there's more of him out there...and my head just went to a very naughty place.

[CulturalGeekGirl]

I don't see Awakenings Anders lying in bed at night wishing for true love. That doesn't mean he wasn't interested in it at all, but Awakening Anders doesn't dwell, doesn't angst, at least not when he's out enjoying himself. I'm sure he dwells and angsts a bit back at the tower, but even then he uses his ironic detachment to give himself the illusion that everything's ok, he'll just escape again, one of these days it'll actually work.

A lot of his personality in Awakenings was based on Anders just not admitting to himself that all the bad stuff that was happening to him was as awful as it actually was. You only hear genuine pain in his voice when he's talking about his life one or two times... the line about solitary confinement and eventually being executed is one of them, one of the few times he admits that his whole "haha, I'm a master of escapism!" lifestyle isn't all pies and nights at the Pearl.

So, deep down, Awakenings Anders might have wanted to fall in love someday, but he would never have let himself dwell on that fact, because it would have been too depressing. It's pretty easy to convince yourself that something you'll never have is actually not that desirable, humans do it all the time.

Justice strips him of his ability to do that. He says as much in DA2: things that always bothered him but he just ignored... he can't ignore them anymore. He's physically and psychologically incapable of building all those little barriers in his head that let him deal with all the bad things in the world, and the bad things that have happened to him.

Awakenings Anders' thought process was probably something like this:

"I'll probably never fall in love. Oh well, love isn't that great, random sex with hot ladies is infinitely better. I mean come on, who wants one woman for the rest of your life when you can have an Antivan lady of the night and her limber twin sister asking you to settle a bet over which one of them is the sexiest?"

Whereas I picture JAnders' thought process as more like this:

"I'll probably never fall in love. Oh well..."
"That is a great injustice."
"It isn't so bad, I didn't really want it anyway."
"But a mage will never have a wife, or a family, Never have a real home. That is an opportunity that every human deserves. And it is denied to you. How can you simply ignore it?"

And once that's out of the bag, he can't just live his convenient little lie that missing out on love for his entire life was no big deal. A lot of Anders' snark in Awakenings is him laughing away situations that are actually completely horrible. His ironic detachment allows him to cope, and to be relatively happy during the few precious moments of freedom he can steal. Justice strips all his filters away, leaving him with no coping mechanisms.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 01 juin 2011 - 05:25 .

[CalJones]

I should think the fact you'll be dead from the taint within 15-30 years would be enough to make you reevaluate your life somewhat.

[Jean]

His conversation in DAII about him and Karl made me think he could of been a serial monogamist. Not with someone for very long and moving on to another quickly.

[Ryzaki]

I feel personally Anders more wanted love itself just to experience it. (Why else be head over heels for rivalry Hawke?) He's not in love with Hawke to me on either path as much as he is in love with the idea of love itself.  

And yes Sia the melodrama is pretty funny.

I just wish Hawke didn't have to ham it up too. *sighs*

Modifié par Ryzaki, 01 juin 2011 - 07:19 .

[LT123]

Ryzaki wrote...

I feel personally Anders more wanted love itself just to experience it. (Why else be head over heels for rivalry Hawke?) He's not in love with Hawke to me on either path as much as he is in love with the idea of love itself.  

And yes Sia the melodrama is pretty funny.

I just wish Hawke didn't have to ham it up too. *sighs*

Although I think Anders wins the melodrama award with lines like "I would drown us both in blood..." some of Hawke's flirt lines are priceless. I just shook my head when Garrett Hawke went for the "I'm sure I could think of a better way for you to thank me" line to Merrill. Really, Hawke? And any of the Seb ones are great, mainly because they're all really blatant come-ons and one of them gets "Oh. I need to go pray. A lot" in response.

But "Want a sandwich?" is the best Hawke flirt line. There's no denying it.

Modifié par LT123, 01 juin 2011 - 07:26 .

[Jean]

But the sandwich line wasn't a flirt line.
It was a sarcastic line.

[LT123]

Batteries wrote...

But the sandwich line wasn't a flirt line.
It was a sarcastic line.

I think I say something incorrect every time I post. Wow. Best sarcastic romantic line then!

[KLGChaos]

Just one question I have... if Anders was a Grey Warden, doesn't that mean he can't be taken in as an apostate? Or did he lose any protection he had because he left? Considering you're basically a Warden for life, even if you don't show up for the parties, you'd think he wouldn't have had to be afraid of being put in the Gallows.

[Ryzaki]

LT123 wrote...
Although I think Anders wins the melodrama award with lines like "I would drown us both in blood..." some of Hawke's flirt lines are priceless. I just shook my head when Garrett Hawke went for the "I'm sure I could think of a better way for you to thank me" line to Merrill. Really, Hawke? And any of the Seb ones are great, mainly because they're all really blatant come-ons and one of them gets "Oh. I need to go pray. A lot" in response.

But "Want a sandwich?" is the best Hawke flirt line. There's no denying it.

 

My fav flirt line has to be Hawke's "We could find out." to Fenris. Just the way Boulton says it. *fans self* 

Want a sandwich loses to the "it can be alot to take in." line though.  

Though best Hawke *actual* flirt line has to be the lines you give Aveline. Mostly because she completely misses the point. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 01 juin 2011 - 07:37 .

[SurelyForth]

ElleMullineux wrote...
This is more the way I see him generally, although were it not for Isabella's comment about him at the Pearl I would be less inclined to believe he was as promiscuous as he makes out he was. It sort of strikes me as fitting with his snarky persona to make up fabulous sexual exploits where in reality he indulges rarely and then tends to get his heart stomped on. Then you have the wonderful conflict of never being able to admit how much he wants stability because everyone believes the persona he's created.

But he actually doesn't make up any fabulous sexual exploits, really. He just talks about trysts in the Circle and sexual tension with the templar who always caught him (and that was definitely, definitely deflection). He's just sexually open. He flirts, he ogles, he mentions it casually in conversation, the idea of the Legion of the Dead orgy excites him...he doesn't really strike me was being emotionally damaged by relationships themselves, such as they are. Quite the opposite, I imagine that he probably left a lot of Namaya's around (she clearly felt used by him) rather than the other way around.

He would help those who obviously needed help, but beyond that his self-preservation was the most important thing. He comes to be disgusted by that aspect of himself, but at Justice's prodding. All of his epilogues in Awakening (I know, I know, but they're in character for what happens in Awakening, at least) involve him escaping at some point. Besides coming back to the Wardens, who he sees as family (which sorta precludes him trying for one on his own, since he probably knows that leaving the Wardens would make him a target) he ends up with Isabela. No doubt that AU with Pirate Anders and Pirate Isabela skanking it up on the Waking Sea is unbelievably sexy and awesome, I can't imagine that there are a ton of declarations of enduring love happening between them. Or any sorts of nods to monogamy. And yet, if left to his own devices and untouched by Justice or guilt over leaving the Wardens, it's what he would choose to do.

All of this isn't to say that his views are informed by his experiences in the Circle, they are. But I think there are certain aspects of his personality in Awakening that we were supposed to take at face value to highlight the change he undergoes in DA2. While his being obsessed with the Chantry and templars doesn't surprise me at all, since that was a Thing in Awakening, things like letting himself be a handsome hobo, and the celibacy and his quick and fairly unshakeable devotion to Hawke are supposed to prove how much he's been changed by merging with Justice.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 01 juin 2011 - 07:58 .

[Ninche]

ARGH I can't resist jumping into this!

The way I see it is like AAnders had all the potential but was also quite selfish. He was scared of commitment to anything or anyone mainly because it meant it could be used against him or could anchor him to the same place when he needs that reassurance of freedom (no partners just lovers) so he can run anytime he likes to. AAnders' life also lacks purpose. His struggles to get free which inevitably lead to him being re-captured suggest that he's running around with no aim. He runs away but somehow never leaves the country? Goes to an inn somewhere for a few nights of fun and is back on his way to the tower the next day. I think AAnders is scared in general - he is even too scared to remain free, to fight until he wins, scared to actually KILL a templar ( I believe that he didn't kill the templars in awakening, personally, but rather stepped behind them and the dspawn did the work) scared to oppose the chantry ("they can't break completely free from the chantry, that's madness"). Then suddenly Justice is there - and Justice is strong, Justice always knows whats right and what needs to be done, Justice is NEVER afraid. Justice is everything Anders secretly wished he was, everything he NEEDS. So they merge.

And then JAnders doesn't run aimplessly anymore. He leaves for Kirkwall to help a dear friend and fight the injustice of the circle, he builds his clinic and stays there permanently working night and day to help as many as he can - he's got more purpose now that he can handle. He doesn't even think about relationships at this point, he's scared of what he's become with Justice and feels he should be above these simple desires, he should not want to be loved. And who would love him now anyway?

I'm really sorry for the long ramble, I was thinking and writing at the same time - hence the incoherence. I think I've come to the conclusion that AAnders wanted to fall in love and wanted a partner as much as any other man. But as people mentioned above he thought he could never have it, perhaps he thought he didn't deserve it? Haha this is fascinating actually, I need to ponder this some more!

Again, sorry for the walls of text. And now to go slightly off topic, I see everything as friendmance or rivalmance now! I just saw the new X-men and there's these two guys liking the same girl and I just kept thinking "oh this guy is so rivalmancing her but she is so going for the friendmance guy, I would!"

[CulturalGeekGirl]

rayemoon wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...
But I think there are certain aspects of his personality in Awakening that we were supposed to take at face value to highlight the change he undergoes in DA2.

Surely, I've heard this A LOT on this forum.  So much I'm starting to wonder- did someone from Bioware suggest this at one point, or is it just a really popular fanon view?

Well, Anders remarks upon this change in himself a few times in DA:2, specifically referencing awakenings things. I can't find the exact quotes offhand, but especially telling is a banter he has with Isabella, in which he says he used to be like her, and sort of wishes he could be "that selfish" again. The original Awakenings banter is here: The relevant banter with Izzy starts at 1:08 here.

It isn't specifically about relationships, but I find the concept can be generalized outward - he was selfish, apathetic, and unserious before (not in a bad way, but in an Isabella way). Justice changed all that. I think it might have been possible to "get through to" Awakening Anders, in the same way you can push Izzy to admit she actually wants someone, but it would take a lot of doing, and many years of building a relationship.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 01 juin 2011 - 08:29 .

[SurelyForth]

rayemoon wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...
But I think there are certain aspects of his personality in Awakening that we were supposed to take at face value to highlight the change he undergoes in DA2.

Surely, I've heard this A LOT on this forum.  So much I'm starting to wonder- did someone from Bioware suggest this at one point, or is it just a really popular fanon view?

They haven't given us much about Anders besides what's in the games and the short story.

However, if they created him, from the beginning, to serve the function he does in the world of Dragon Age, I think it stands to reason that they made deliberate choices with his characterization in Awakening to influence a) player opinion of him in DA2 (since he's a pretty tough sell without an established fanbase and his status as the best healer in the game) and  make what happens to him in Dragon Age 2 all the more impactful.

But that's just why I think that. I think that Justice is supposed to be seen as the catalyst for a lot of his personality changes between DAA and DA2, in addition to bringing out the crux of his Awakening character (which is "Rawr! The Chantry") and pushing it to the forefront.