57020 réponses à ce sujet

[Amondra]

SurelyForth wrote...

ElleMullineux wrote...
This is more the way I see him generally, although were it not for Isabella's comment about him at the Pearl I would be less inclined to believe he was as promiscuous as he makes out he was. It sort of strikes me as fitting with his snarky persona to make up fabulous sexual exploits where in reality he indulges rarely and then tends to get his heart stomped on. Then you have the wonderful conflict of never being able to admit how much he wants stability because everyone believes the persona he's created.

But he actually doesn't make up any fabulous sexual exploits, really. He just talks about trysts in the Circle and sexual tension with the templar who always caught him (and that was definitely, definitely deflection). He's just sexually open. He flirts, he ogles, he mentions it casually in conversation, the idea of the Legion of the Dead orgy excites him...he doesn't really strike me was being emotionally damaged by relationships themselves, such as they are. Quite the opposite, I imagine that he probably left a lot of Namaya's around (she clearly felt used by him) rather than the other way around.

He would help those who obviously needed help, but beyond that his self-preservation was the most important thing. He comes to be disgusted by that aspect of himself, but at Justice's prodding. All of his epilogues in Awakening (I know, I know, but they're in character for what happens in Awakening, at least) involve him escaping at some point. Besides coming back to the Wardens, who he sees as family (which sorta precludes him trying for one on his own, since he probably knows that leaving the Wardens would make him a target) he ends up with Isabela. No doubt that AU with Pirate Anders and Pirate Isabela skanking it up on the Waking Sea is unbelievably sexy and awesome, I can't imagine that there are a ton of declarations of enduring love happening between them. Or any sorts of nods to monogamy. And yet, if left to his own devices and untouched by Justice or guilt over leaving the Wardens, it's what he would choose to do.

All of this isn't to say that his views are informed by his experiences in the Circle, they are. But I think there are certain aspects of his personality in Awakening that we were supposed to take at face value to highlight the change he undergoes in DA2. While his being obsessed with the Chantry and templars doesn't surprise me at all, since that was a Thing in Awakening, things like letting himself be a handsome hobo, and the celibacy and his quick and fairly unshakeable devotion to Hawke are supposed to prove how much he's been changed by merging with Justice.

I hold to the fact.  With being on the run so much, being in love was fleeting, and he didn't any stock in it.  After what happened with Justice and the fact he is a Warden, he feels any chance of actually finding love out the window.  Then he meets Hawke that despite all this is like "I want to give us a shot"  or more sappy Hawke "I want to be with you!" 

Because they are not running scared and how tore up he is now, Anders despite his better judgement is head over heels before he knows it.  The love Hawke gives him makes him feel human again, gives him something to latch onto.  In his state emotions run and are so intense, I believe he loves Hawke (even if his cause comes first) he would still move mountians to keep him/her safe.

It's that feeling of thinking you are unloveable and someone coming into your life wanting to love you, makes  a big difference.

edit for top:

Modifié par Amondra, 01 juin 2011 - 08:25 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

ElleMullineux wrote...

Ninche wrote...
Then suddenly Justice is there - and Justice is strong, Justice always knows whats right and what needs to be done, Justice is NEVER afraid. Justice is everything Anders secretly wished he was, everything he NEEDS. So they merge.

Worst case of hero worship ever

That said, I love DA2 Anders hard, so I guess it all worked out in the end.

I am so incredibly torn, because DA:A Anders is one of my favorite character archetypes: the lovable, selfish rogue who secretly has a heart of gold, and manages to remain cheerful and enjoy life despite a moderately tragic past and a pretty messed up current situation.

DA2 Anders is my other favorite character archetype: the martyr who cares too much and is willing to sacrifice everything, including his own happiness, to do the right thing, but who cannot see his own greatness, and hates himself for all his flaws.

Why must I give one up to have the other? It's not faiiiiir.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 01 juin 2011 - 09:02 .

[AerdrieDarkmoon]

Amondra wrote...

I hold to the fact.  With being on the run so much, being in love was fleeting, and he didn't any stock in it.  After what happened with Justice and the fact he is a Warden, he feels any chance of actually finding love out the window.  Then he meets Hawke that despite all this is like "I want to give us a shot"  or more sappy Hawke "I want to be with you!" 

Because they are not running scared and how tore up he is now, Anders despite his better judgement is head over heels before he knows it.  The love Hawke gives him makes him feel human again, gives him something to latch onto.  In his state emotions run and are so intense, I believe he loves Hawke (even if his cause comes first) he would still move mountians to keep him/her safe.

It's that feeling of thinking you are unloveable and someone coming into your life wanting to love you, makes  a big difference.

Everyone's view is helping me tremendously with writing my prompt.  I'm even tearing up with the idea of the bolded statement above. I can't really add my two cents since I understand everyone's view,and can see how all the conflicts can/should work.  I will say that all of this is making me think.
*huggles to all*


by kyuubifred

[Ninche]

rayemoon wrote...

-ramble snip-

THIS.  SO THIS.  Thanks for chiming in, Ninche, you said exactly what I think, but more elegantly than it would have come out if I'd attempted to write it, I think!  

Ohh so happy my rambles are not totally useless! ^^ I might have more to say once I've thought about it - I've got a whole new theory about only being able to love when you think you deserve it even tho you think you dont think you deserve it (or maybe it's Justice filling Anders' head with such nonesense as "you dont deserve to be loved"?) Oo Anyway! I shall ponder this while I draw some more Andersbutt... It's like meditation


@CulturalGeekGirl: Ohh but the funny rogue is still in there! I'm sure Hawke makes the old Anders manifest and they have lots of kinky sex and laughs in private!  

[highcastle]

Ryzaki wrote...

I feel personally Anders more wanted love itself just to experience it. (Why else be head over heels for rivalry Hawke?) He's not in love with Hawke to me on either path as much as he is in love with the idea of love itself.  

And yes Sia the melodrama is pretty funny.

I just wish Hawke didn't have to ham it up too. *sighs*

Ok, I'm late to the party on this one, but oh well. I've known people who are "in love with love" before. I don't see Anders as one of them. Mostly because he waits three whole years to be with Hawke. I know the "I love you" lines come on fast for us, but we're missing a huge chunk of time during which Anders is coming to grips with his emotions and lying awake aching for Hawke. 

Granted, as always, I'm speaking about the friendship path. He's a completely different person on the rivalry path and I haven't done as much character analysis on that route because it doesn't appeal to me.

(Not trying to pick a fight here, or anything. We seem to have opposite opinions on just about every facet of Anders, though, don't we?)

[Ryzaki]

highcastle wrote...
Ok, I'm late to the party on this one, but oh well. I've known people who are "in love with love" before. I don't see Anders as one of them. Mostly because he waits three whole years to be with Hawke. I know the "I love you" lines come on fast for us, but we're missing a huge chunk of time during which Anders is coming to grips with his emotions and lying awake aching for Hawke. 

Granted, as always, I'm speaking about the friendship path. He's a completely different person on the rivalry path and I haven't done as much character analysis on that route because it doesn't appeal to me.

(Not trying to pick a fight here, or anything. We seem to have opposite opinions on just about every facet of Anders, though, don't we?)

 

Edit: Let me formulate my thoughts more coherently. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 01 juin 2011 - 10:09 .

[highcastle]

Ryzaki wrote...

He doesn't wait before flirting with Hawke (despite it being right after killing his ex.  ) The waiting up at night becomes disturbing if your Hawke doesn't express interest in him until late or if Hawke flirted lightly and is in a romance with someone else. Then is the "why are you with Hawke?" bit and the "you should find someone better." when he and Hawke may not even *stand* each other. It's just...it's romantic when you romance him...but when you don't....it's very very strange. He doesn't say anything if Hawke is single but he can't help pipping up if he sees Hawke with anyone else. Even if Hawke rejects him early on. That said I'm taking all of that with the context that he feels that way regardless. (mostly due to the "what do you see in him? Pick someone better."  comments which make sense in a friendship but he still says them in a rivalry. Which...really makes no sense. In a rivalry he should say Fenris/Merrill and my Hawke deserve each other.) In a rivalry he admits he can't stand Hawke but can't stop thinking about him and loves him...why? It's never answered. He doesn't say why he loves Hawke...he just *does*. And this isn't at the end of the romance either. It's nearly at the beginning. 

I'm speaking about both paths but non romance. 

Yeah we do. Don't worry you're not picking a fight.

Well, the conversation where Anders can (in one specific set of circumstances, mind you) initiate the flirt can occur any time in Act 1. It's not the first conversation after Tranquility, it's the second one. If you trigger it after doing a few other quests, it makes more sense. Plus, he only flirts when Hawke specifically says he agrees Anders did the right thing in merging with Justice. It's this massive shot of approval from a man who came back down to talk to him and look in on him even knowing what he is. So yes, Anders flirts. 

If he were in love with the idea of being in love, he'd likely find a more receptive target to latch onto, someone who actually returns his alleged feelings. So the idea that Anders pines even when Hawke's in a romance with someone else doesn't sell it for me. Unlike Fenris or Isabela, he never moves onto someone else. He always loves Hawke. Again, I can speak to the logic of the rival path because I haven't played it, but on the friendship path it's clearly in part because of how Hawke views mages and Hawke's acceptance of Justice. I believe Anders when he says he felt this part of his life was over. That Hawke still seems to like him even knowing what he is, that's hugely encouraging and attractive to Anders.

Anders when not-romanced is a textbook case of unrequited love. And it's specific to Hawke. There are so many other ways he could be satisfied if his feelings weren't genuine, but he really seems to care about Hawke. Just because he cares about his cause more doesn't mean his feelings are fakes.

[Ryzaki]

highcastle wrote...
Well, the conversation where Anders can (in one specific set of circumstances, mind you) initiate the flirt can occur any time in Act 1. It's not the first conversation after Tranquility, it's the second one. If you trigger it after doing a few other quests, it makes more sense. Plus, he only flirts when Hawke specifically says he agrees Anders did the right thing in merging with Justice. It's this massive shot of approval from a man who came back down to talk to him and look in on him even knowing what he is. So yes, Anders flirts. 

If he were in love with the idea of being in love, he'd likely find a more receptive target to latch onto, someone who actually returns his alleged feelings. So the idea that Anders pines even when Hawke's in a romance with someone else doesn't sell it for me. Unlike Fenris or Isabela, he never moves onto someone else. He always loves Hawke. Again, I can speak to the logic of the rival path because I haven't played it, but on the friendship path it's clearly in part because of how Hawke views mages and Hawke's acceptance of Justice. I believe Anders when he says he felt this part of his life was over. That Hawke still seems to like him even knowing what he is, that's hugely encouraging and attractive to Anders.

Anders when not-romanced is a textbook case of unrequited love. And it's specific to Hawke. There are so many other ways he could be satisfied if his feelings weren't genuine, but he really seems to care about Hawke. Just because he cares about his cause more doesn't mean his feelings are fakes.

 

You always post after I edit *sighs*  

And who would be more receptive to his declarations of love than Hawke? (and also willing to be around an abomination as well as being able to defend him/herself from the templars that might try to pressure him). Anders  I doubt he would want to admit his feelings to someone completely vulnerable to Meredith and the templars. (Even Hawke gets a "I fear for you." comment. Someone without Hawke's skills and status? I don't see him willing to risk it truth be told.) Though that is true. 

Maybe that's why I dislike it. It seems more like obsession to me than unrequited love in some scenarios. Him falling in love with Hawke because Hawke's pro-mage freedom is shakey because he should *already* know mages tha are pro-mage freedom. Being accepting of Justice is something I can see as a major deal though. 

...I didn't say his feelings were fake because of his cause.  

Modifié par Ryzaki, 01 juin 2011 - 10:42 .

[highcastle]

Ryzaki wrote...

You always post after I edit *sighs*  

That's me; I'm irksome that way.

And who would be more receptive to his declarations of love than Hawke? (and also willing to be around an abomination as well as being able to defend him/herself from the templars that might try to pressure him). Anders  I doubt he would want to admit his feelings to someone completely vulnerable to Meredith and the templars. (Even Hawke gets a "I fear for you." comment. Someone without Hawke's skills and status? I don't see him willing to risk it truth be told.) Though that is true. 

...I didn't say his feelings were fake because of his cause.  

Well, Bethany for non-mage!Hawkes seems pretty receptive to Anders. Isabela's receptive to just about everyone. There are also prostitutes, and we know Anders isn't above visiting them just from some of the stories he told in Awakening and his banter with Izzy. There are others out there who would satisfy Anders' physical needs and with whom he could convince himself he was in love, if he so desired. But it's Hawke. It's always Hawke, no matter what Hawke does or says. There's just something there.

And I know you didn't say his feelings were fake because of his cause. That was more of a general nod to the notion some have that Anders doesn't really love Hawke because he's more passionate about the mages. It tends to go hand in hand with these arguments, so I was just throwing it out there. A premeptive strike, if you will.

[Amondra]

 Sorry for putting this up in the middle of a really deep conversation, but why is it I can see Snarky Hawke singing this after he just gets done having sex with any of the LI's?  I blame the the rum I am drinking.

[ipgd]

Ryzaki wrote...

And who would be more receptive to his declarations of love than Hawke?

Merrill, looooool.

[Ryzaki]

highcastle wrote...
That's me; I'm irksome that way.

And you did it yet again. 

Well, Bethany for non-mage!Hawkes seems pretty receptive to Anders. Isabela's receptive to just about everyone. There are also prostitutes, and we know Anders isn't above visiting them just from some of the stories he told in Awakening and his banter with Izzy. There are others out there who would satisfy Anders' physical needs and with whom he could convince himself he was in love, if he so desired. But it's Hawke. It's always Hawke, no matter what Hawke does or says. There's just something there.

And I know you didn't say his feelings were fake because of his cause. That was more of a general nod to the notion some have that Anders doesn't really love Hawke because he's more passionate about the mages. It tends to go hand in hand with these arguments, so I was just throwing it out there. A premeptive strike, if you will.

 

Bethany disappears after act 1 and I don't see her as receptive to Anders. The first thing I heard her say about him was "as just as his cause is...it scares me." I don't see her as the type to go along with him especially when it would draw attention to her by the templars. Isabela isn't interested in love. I'm not saying Anders was interested in sex. 

Though now that I reflect on it more it was wrong to say he was in love with love itself. I just don't feel like he was in love with my Hawke than just the idea of Hawke. That's probably the feeling I get from brevity of the narrative though. 

Obsession is what I feel is there. Obsession and idealization. Hawke could've been a complete jerkwad yet Anders stayed up at night for 3 years aching for him. But this is probably due to a lack of information. I fill the blanks in but Anders and Hawke aren't really in heavy contact in them. For friendship I see it as Anders seeing this ideal and falling in love with it. Hawke to him is the perfect mage. (my friendshipmances were with mages) or non-mage (no fear of mages, no desire to see them locked up in circles) he's not scared of Anders and indeed accepts him just as he is. This ideal is shattered when Hawke won't help him sneak in the chantry (making the screeching halt the romance comes to make sense) or when Hawke sides with the templars ("I loved you once but I won't let you do this.") For rivalry it becomes obsession with Hawke saving him and who better to save you then someone who loves you.

That said both paths can have actual love in them. Just throwing an alternate interpreation out there. I like stirring the pot. 

Ah. Well I have no issues with one putting other things above love. I do it myself. I wouldn't use that as a sign someone didn't love someone. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 01 juin 2011 - 11:09 .

[Giggles_Manically]

Amondra wrote...

 Sorry for putting this up in the middle of a really deep conversation, but why is it I can see Snarky Hawke singing this after he just gets done having sex with any of the LI's?  I blame the the rum I am drinking.

<_<

How did I know you would post that?
I just knew it.

Ah hell  I still love that song.

Modifié par Giggles_Manically, 01 juin 2011 - 11:11 .

[Ryzaki]

ipgd wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

And who would be more receptive to his declarations of love than Hawke?

Merrill, looooool.

 

You joke but I would've liked to see how this would've worked. 

[highcastle]

[quote]Ryzaki wrote...

[quote]highcastle wrote...
That's me; I'm irksome that way.[/quote]

And you did it yet again. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/lol.png[/smilie]
[/quote]

And I"m doing it now, too, I'm sure.

[quote]
Well,
Bethany for non-mage!Hawkes seems pretty receptive to Anders. Isabela's
receptive to just about everyone. There are also prostitutes, and we
know Anders isn't above visiting them just from some of the stories he
told in Awakening and his banter with Izzy. There are others out there
who would satisfy Anders' physical needs and with whom he could convince
himself he was in love, if he so desired. But it's Hawke. It's always
Hawke, no matter what Hawke does or says. There's just something there.

And
I know you didn't say his feelings were fake because of his cause. That
was more of a general nod to the notion some have that Anders doesn't
really love Hawke because he's more passionate about the mages. It tends
to go hand in hand with these arguments, so I was just throwing it out
there. A premeptive strike, if you will.

[/quote] 

Bethany
disappears after act 1 and I don't see her as receptive to Anders. The
first thing I heard her say about him was "as just as his cause is...it
scares me." I don't see her as the type to go along with him especially
when it would draw attention to her by the templars. Isabela isn't
interested in love. I'm not saying Anders was interested in sex. 

Though
now that I reflect on it more it was wrong to say he was in love with
love itself. I just don't feel like he was in love with my Hawke than
just the idea of Hawke. That's probably the feeling I get from brevity
of the narrative though. 

Obsession is what I feel is there.
Obsession and idealization. Hawke could've been a complete jerkwad yet
Anders stayed up at night for 3 years aching for him. But this is
probably due to a lack of information. I fill the blanks in but Anders
and Hawke aren't really in heavy contact in them. For friendship I see
it as Anders seeing this ideal and falling in love with it. Hawke to him
is the perfect mage. (my friendshipmances were with mages) or non-mage
(no fear of mages, no desire to see them locked up in circles) he's not
scared of Anders and indeed accepts him just as he is. This ideal is
shattered when Hawke won't help him sneak in the chantry (making the
screeching halt the romance comes to make sense) or when Hawke sides
with the templars ("I loved you once but I won't let you do this.") 

Ah.
Well I have no issues with one putting other things above love. I do it
myself. I wouldn't use that as a sign someone didn't love
someone. [/quote]

Well, I agree with you about the
obsession/idealization part. It's a chief part of how I view the
friendmance: with Anders putting Hawke on a pedestal and counting on him
to keep up the good fight after his death. Unlike you, my Hawke did
sneak into the Chantry for Anders, on the off-chance that trusting
Anders would encourage him to trust Hawke in turn. Obviously it didn't
help. And of course I side with the mages (I think everyone and their
mother knows this about me by now). So in a way, some of Anders'
idealization was right. Hawke really is the champion the mages need (at
least my Hawkes). Of course, the way it plays out shatters Hawke.

Bah,
I'm wandering off my original point. And I'm too tired and jet-lagged
to stay focused. So instead I'm going to catch some Zs and try to
pretend I know what time zone I'm in. G'night, all!

ETA: I have no idea what happened with the formatting and I'm too tired to fix it. Sorry!

Modifié par highcastle, 01 juin 2011 - 11:11 .

[ipgd]

Ryzaki wrote...

ipgd wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

And who would be more receptive to his declarations of love than Hawke?

Merrill, looooool.

 

You joke but I would've liked to see how this would've worked. 

If he weren't an ass to her all of the time, I could see it happening. She seemed to like him well enough, despite him being a collosal cock.

Modifié par ipgd, 01 juin 2011 - 11:16 .

[Amondra]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Amondra wrote...

 Sorry for putting this up in the middle of a really deep conversation, but why is it I can see Snarky Hawke singing this after he just gets done having sex with any of the LI's?  I blame the the rum I am drinking.

<_<

How did I know you would post that?
I just knew it.

Ah hell  I still love that song.

Because Snark Hawke would! And oh the giggles of picturing Fenris singing after doing it, because he can't remember if he as or not so lol

[Ryzaki]

ipgd wrote...
If he weren't an ass to her all of the time, I could see it happening. She seemed to like him well enough despite him being a collosal cock.

 

Merrill doesn't mind people knocking her. I mean her rivalrymance is pretty much Anders nagging taken to 11.  Except RivalHawke doesn't call her a monster. 

[Ryzaki]

highcastle wrote...
And I"m doing it now, too, I'm sure.

 

Well, I agree with you about the obsession/idealization part. It's a chief part of how I view the friendmance: with Anders putting Hawke on a pedestal and counting on him to keep up the good fight after his death. Unlike you, my Hawke did sneak into the Chantry for Anders, on the off-chance that trusting Anders would encourage him to trust Hawke in turn. Obviously it didn't help. And of course I side with the mages (I think everyone and their mother knows this about me by now). So in a way, some of Anders' idealization was right. Hawke really is the champion the mages need (at least my Hawkes). Of course, the way it plays out shatters Hawke.

Bah,I'm wandering off my original point. And I'm too tired and jet-lagged to stay focused. So instead I'm going to catch some Zs and try to pretend I know what time zone I'm in. G'night, all!

ETA: I have no idea what happened with the formatting and I'm too tired to fix it. Sorry!

 

Oh I was just throwing an alternate interpretation out there. For discussion is all. 

Night. And jetlag. Ugh. Hopefully you won't be like me and take a week to get adjusted.  

NP. 

[Giggles_Manically]

Amondra wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Amondra wrote...

 Sorry for putting this up in the middle of a really deep conversation, but why is it I can see Snarky Hawke singing this after he just gets done having sex with any of the LI's?  I blame the the rum I am drinking.

<_<

How did I know you would post that?
I just knew it.

Ah hell  I still love that song.

Because Snark Hawke would! And oh the giggles of picturing Fenris singing after doing it, because he can't remember if he as or not so lol

Goddam.

Now I imagine Fenris, Anders, and Varric singing this.
Ah if I had any artistic talents I would SO draw a comic of that. 

[Amondra]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Amondra wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Amondra wrote...

 Sorry for putting this up in the middle of a really deep conversation, but why is it I can see Snarky Hawke singing this after he just gets done having sex with any of the LI's?  I blame the the rum I am drinking.

<_<

How did I know you would post that?
I just knew it.

Ah hell  I still love that song.

Because Snark Hawke would! And oh the giggles of picturing Fenris singing after doing it, because he can't remember if he as or not so lol

Goddam.

Now I imagine Fenris, Anders, and Varric singing this.
Ah if I had any artistic talents I would SO draw a comic of that. 

ROFL, trust me the more I drink the worse the ideas become.