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[panamakira]

nenosronhir wrote...

Considering when/if you run into your sibling, I think I recall Carver mentioning "I should be fighting the Blight," (I can't remember if this is in Act II or III, though). Which still pegs it years after the Blight in Ferelden(unless I'm misremembering)... *shifty eyes* Thedas is going to hell in a handbasket! Huzzah! XD

As an aside, though, the war between Ferelden and Orlais intrigues me, because Orlais is the seat of the Divine. CURIOUSER AND CURIOUSER.

The one thing I'm certain of in regards to the mages is that I'm glad they get to make the choice, regardless of what it took to get there. Whatever happens, my mage Hawke (at the very least) will not regret being at Anders' side, will not regret being a part of this, even if that means her hands are stained as well. :3

I know. Thedas is just going to explode from everything happening all at once. I hope DA3 is set on Orlais though, that'd be cool......there is definitely something going on there. Otherwise the Grey Wardens you save or Alistair wouldn't have mention it. They're setting us up for it. And I also see my Hawke standing by Anders side but instead trying to keep him from doing anything crazier or going insane. I'm a pacifist. I can understand when to take drastic actions but I want to protect Anders more than he does. Seriously she lost all of her family, he is all that's left for her.

Like I've said, "This romance hurts so good..."

[Souris]

Soo..I've been pondering on something, and I could just be over-analyzing this, but when you have the conversation with the Grand Cleric in the Chantry while Anders does his thing, she very pointedly says to him:

"You have a troubled soul, I hope you find a balm for it."

Or something along those lines. The balm is said very pointedly, and sounds similar to, well, "bomb". Do you guys think she knows, or knew, what he was up to?

[StellaSmooth]

Not sure that this is the right place to post this, but I shall do so anyway. I have a tendency to give each character a song and in my playthrough I was absolutely pro-freedom for mages just like Anders. The song that I picked for him was appropriate to the extreme I think. Hurricane by 30 Seconds to Mars.

Tell me would you kill to save a life?
Tell me would you kill to prove you're right?
Crash, crash, burn...
Let it all burn.
This hurricane's chasing us all underground.

No matter how many deaths that I die, I will never forget.
No matter how many lies that I live, I will never regret.
There is a fire inside that has started a riot about to explode into flames.
Where is your God?
Where is your God?
Where is your God?

The only thing I keep thinking when I hear the song now is Anders forcing a revolution through a bit of terrorism. (probably the understatement of the year, I know.) Anyone else got a good song for Anders? Just wondering, I can't be the only person on the planet that thinks in music. hehe.

Anyhow, 's to all and sorry if this was the wrong place to put something like this.

[nenosronhir]

Hmmm. Definitely hard to say. On the one hand I think it's clever writing alluding to the events (Anders does it, too, when he describes the potion's effects), and on the other, I'm honestly not sure. I want to rationalize that if she did, she'd do something about it, and then I look at how she's (not) handled Meredith, and realise that she might not do anything.

Which in turn makes me wonder if she wasn't just biding her time, waiting for something to get out of control. Perhaps she anticipated being the sacrificial lamb. Argh, she has a conversation with Sebastian and Hawke about how she won't abandon her flock and why would anyone target the Chantry etc etc but I can't remember it exactly. Codex does note that while she's a lovely woman with a big heart, she just doesn't have the cojones to mediate Kirkwall properly.

Anyway, rambling aside, there's not really any way to know for sure.

[Souris]

nenosronhir wrote...

Hmmm. Definitely hard to say. On the one hand I think it's clever writing alluding to the events (Anders does it, too, when he describes the potion's effects), and on the other, I'm honestly not sure. I want to rationalize that if she did, she'd do something about it, and then I look at how she's (not) handled Meredith, and realise that she might not do anything.

Which in turn makes me wonder if she wasn't just biding her time, waiting for something to get out of control. Perhaps she anticipated being the sacrificial lamb. Argh, she has a conversation with Sebastian and Hawke about how she won't abandon her flock and why would anyone target the Chantry etc etc but I can't remember it exactly. Codex does note that while she's a lovely woman with a big heart, she just doesn't have the cojones to mediate Kirkwall properly.

Anyway, rambling aside, there's not really any way to know for sure.

It's been driving me a little bonkers, I don't know if it was intentional or not, but as soon as she said it I kind of had an "Oh ****, what did I do." moment.

[nenosronhir]

StellaSmooth wrote...

Not sure that this is the right place to post this, but I shall do so anyway. I have a tendency to give each character a song and in my playthrough I was absolutely pro-freedom for mages just like Anders. The song that I picked for him was appropriate to the extreme I think. Hurricane by 30 Seconds to Mars.

Tell me would you kill to save a life?
Tell me would you kill to prove you're right?
Crash, crash, burn...
Let it all burn.
This hurricane's chasing us all underground.

No matter how many deaths that I die, I will never forget.
No matter how many lies that I live, I will never regret.
There is a fire inside that has started a riot about to explode into flames.
Where is your God?
Where is your God?
Where is your God?

The only thing I keep thinking when I hear the song now is Anders forcing a revolution through a bit of terrorism. (probably the understatement of the year, I know.) Anyone else got a good song for Anders? Just wondering, I can't be the only person on the planet that thinks in music. hehe.

Anyhow, 's to all and sorry if this was the wrong place to put something like this.

YES. Yes yes yes, absolutely, that song is completely, totally, and absolutely Anders.

Another is Out of the Blue - Julian Casablancas

Somewhere along the way my hopefulness turned to sadness
Somewhere along the way my sadness turned to bitterness
Somewhere along the way my bitterness turned to anger
Somewhere along the way my anger turned to vengeance

And the ones that I make pay
Are never the ones who deserve it
And the ones who deserve it they'll never understand it
Yes, I know I am going to hell in a purple basket
At least I will be in another world, while you're pissing on my casket

How could you be Oh
So perfect for me? Oh
Why can't you ignore Oh
The things I did before? Oh

Somewhere along the way exacting vengeance gave excitement
Somewhere along the way that excitement turned to pleasure
Somewhere along the way that pleasure turned to madness
Sooner or later that kind of madness turns into pain

And the ones that I made pay were never ones who deserved it
Those who helped me along the way, I smacked them as I thanked them
Yes, I know I am going to hell in a leather jacket
At least I will be in another world, while you're pissing on my casket

All that I can do now is sing a song of faded glory
And all you got to do is sit there up great and make them horny
Together we will sing songs and tell exaggerated stories
About the way we feel today, and tonight and in the morning

How could you be Oh
So perfect for me? Oh
Why can't you ignore Oh
The things I did before? Oh

And take all your fears
And pretend there all true
And take all your plans
And pretend they fell through
And that's what it's like Oh
That's what it's like for people in this world

What you did before Oh
Knock down your dreams Oh
Our roles are reversed Oh
... are due Oh
No, No, No

That's all I am going to say now
Before, they're going to learn the way tonight

Threeparts has a playlist on Grooveshark, also!

Souris wrote...

It's been driving me a little bonkers, I don't know if it was intentional or not, but as soon as she said it I kind of had an "Oh ****, what did I do." moment.

See, I caught the "boom" comment, and completely missed this, but it STILL managed to slap me in the face like woah. XD But even if she did know, it didn't really change anything? Unless she voiced her suspicions to Leliana and it changes something down the line. >A<

Edit: holy formatting, batman! D:

Modifié par nenosronhir, 12 mars 2011 - 02:50 .

[StellaSmooth]

Oooh, checked out that playlist. FABULOUS. I'm actually suprised that Hurricane wasn't on it. XD Thanks for directing me though.

In reference to the "boom" comment...that's what I thought I heard too. I started to replay the part again just to make sure I wasn't hearing things, but now that I know I'm not the only person who thought they heard her say that I feel a bit better. Even though I thought that she was a sweet lady (and even though I knew what Anders was up to since I spoilered myself) I was annoyed that she seemed absolutely neutral in the whole thing. I felt a tiny bit of remorse at blowing her up, but at the same time Anders seemed to take it much harder than I did in the end.

[nenosronhir]

I don't think 30 Seconds to Mars is on Grooveshark, hence not on the playlist. ;-;

Elthina is a lovely woman - but she does not seem to possess the qualities needed in someone in a position of power. That she appears to use the Maker as an excuse for her inaction irked me (unless she had ulterior motives and was siding with the Templars without saying she was siding with the Templars), and reading the Codex as Kirkwall spirals out of control just turned that into resentment.

I'll admit it's a nice switch from Origins, though, to see weaker people in places of power (but then, Ferelden has not really had a chance to develop a sense of complacency). I think the only instance where we witness a weak leader in Origins is if we pop Harrowmont on the throne, or, in a sense, Alistair without hardening him.

Not to say I don't feel bad about her death, but I resent her for letting it go so far.

[VampOrchid]

Has anyone tried a rival romance with anders yet? Is there different dialogue/scenes?

Also has anyone tried romancing him and another person at the same time yet? I want to know if there ends up being conflict or something along those lines. I might do this on my next playthrough

[StellaSmooth]

nenosronhir wrote...

I don't think 30 Seconds to Mars is on Grooveshark, hence not on the playlist. ;-;

Elthina is a lovely woman - but she does not seem to possess the qualities needed in someone in a position of power. That she appears to use the Maker as an excuse for her inaction irked me (unless she had ulterior motives and was siding with the Templars without saying she was siding with the Templars), and reading the Codex as Kirkwall spirals out of control just turned that into resentment.

I'll admit it's a nice switch from Origins, though, to see weaker people in places of power (but then, Ferelden has not really had a chance to develop a sense of complacency). I think the only instance where we witness a weak leader in Origins is if we pop Harrowmont on the throne, or, in a sense, Alistair without hardening him.

Not to say I don't feel bad about her death, but I resent her for letting it go so far.

I'm still not sure if I consider her a weak leader or just unwilling to participate in something she felt was far beyond her control. She seems to know that the Knight-Commander is taking things too far and she also (if we heard 'bomb' correctly) seems to know what the mage population is willing to do to gain some sort of freedom. By allowing herself to become the "sacrificial lamb" so to speak, is she helping Anders achieve that or is she aiding the templar's belief that the best solution is to wipe the circle.

It's confusing to me that she WOULD remain impartial to either side  at ANY point considering the ties of the chantry and the templars unless that is the only way she felt any breaking point would occur. Oh tricky bioware...making me overthink this.

[Raiil]

maselphie wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

I'd argue that while Lust and Pride are internal, Vengeance is a reaction a wrong (imagined or realised).

Nah, nah, nah. If Vengence is either realized or imagined, it's internal. Lust is way more external than Vengence, because it pratically requires there to be another person to lust after. They're all the same level of external/internal. But that's the thing. If a tree falls in the forest, does it make a sound? By ourselves, is there ANY sin? Is sin only wrong-doing unto others? We're getting neck-deep in philosophy here! xD Lust can lead to as bad a place as vengence or pride or greed. Sloth is just as bad as vengence (like someone said, all it takes for evil to prevail is for the good guys to do nothing). Still, the developers do acknowledge that there is a tier system to the demons, with Rage being the weakest and Pride being the strongest.

But what were talking about? Justice being corrupted? Well, that's basically what the developers said flat out. But, personally, I wouldn't have needed them to. Knowing of Justice and Anders in Awakenings lets me know who changed more.

edit: found what his official page says:

Anders agreed to become Justice's human host… only to find that his anger at the Circle warped Justice into the demonic spirit of Vengeance.

Oh, I know Anders's anger corrupted Justice. It just wasn't intentional. It wasn't as if Anders sat in this room, rubbing his hands together with glee and thinking, 'Finally, I will show that pesky spirit what it's like to be a REAL demon! Fear my nefarious cackle of laughter!'. It was, at the heart of it, an accident.


(Although the image of that makes me laugh so hard.)

Back to Vengeance being a reaction, Lust and Pride are sins that can be harboured without anyone really knowing; acting on them in a violent manner is another sin in and of itself. But Vengeance (IMHO, of course) is fairly pure and as I said, something that's easier to condone, at least by a lot of people's standards. Someone who goes after their father's murderer is often looked at better than someone who is inverterantly lazy or sleeps with people indiscriminantly. From what I can tell, anyways, and as all things, YMMV.

[SurelyForth]

nenosronhir wrote...

Not to say I don't feel bad about her death, but I resent her for letting it go so far.

That's how I feel. And by the time Hawke got done talking with her during Anders' quest, she resented her, too. She claims to be trying to balance the situation, but her idea of balance is letting things escalate on both sides. She wouldn't even need to outright say "I support the mages!" Simply removing Meredith from the position of Knight-Commander would have saved so many lives, templar and mage. Cullen seemed to be well-respected amongst the templars and he was far more reasonable. I think the mages would have been at least temporarily appeased by the move, knowing that their situation was being acknowledged, and at the very least it would have stopped escalating so rapidly.

But, you know, the Maker. I wonder if Anders' bomb was the sign she had been waiting for, something to prove to her at last that the situation had moved well beyond something that could be balanced. 

Modifié par SurelyForth, 12 mars 2011 - 04:27 .

[Lady Jess]

nenosronhir wrote...

panamakira wrote...
I can understand that Meredith is crazy but I just cannot justify his actions . I sided with the mages. I let him live and by her side because I think the love him and Lady Hawke have is genuine but he chose to be like Meredith through his actions. They are both completely mad driven by the principle of their cause, that they whole-heartedly believe is bigger than people's lives. If you're sacrificing people and are building your just principle upon the blood of innocents, then the mages will not be any better than the Templars and the whole thing will repeat itself over and over again.

There should be a better way to free mages or make a compromise between the Chantry and the Circle and even take a substantial amount of power from the Chantry. They shouldn't be allowed to have that much power ever again but if mages take down this path of pay blood with blood, the whole thing will never end.

Either way he accomplished what he wanted. There will be a war. Whether it will benefit the mages or not remains to be seen. As I look back though, there seems to be bigger things happening between Orlais and Ferelden and maybe even other nations. There will be war everywhere. I hope there's a blight coming then that will be the cherry on top.

We don't even know what Flemeth wants or what Morrigan fears. Also the hints that mages are being born more than before rises a lot of question about Thedas. I don't think we have enough context to decide what is right or wrong or what would benefit the mages the most.

Considering when/if you run into your sibling, I think I recall Carver mentioning "I should be fighting the Blight," (I can't remember if this is in Act II or III, though). Which still pegs it years after the Blight in Ferelden(unless I'm misremembering)... *shifty eyes* Thedas is going to hell in a handbasket! Huzzah! XD

As an aside, though, the war between Ferelden and Orlais intrigues me, because Orlais is the seat of the Divine. CURIOUSER AND CURIOUSER.

The one thing I'm certain of in regards to the mages is that I'm glad they get to make the choice, regardless of what it took to get there. Whatever happens, my mage Hawke (at the very least) will not regret being at Anders' side, will not regret being a part of this, even if that means her hands are stained as well. :3

And in Origins if you do NOT complete the dark ritual, Morrigan ends up in Orlais at the side of Empress Celene...

Frankly, I am quite happy to know since my queen cousland VANISHED at least someone is looking for her!! Thank you Leliana I will never set you on fire in camp again<3

[MelRedux]

SurelyForth wrote...
Cullen seemed to be well-respected amongst the templars and he was far more reasonable.

That's something I never thought I'd hear.

He seriously surprised the hell out of me.  The whole time I was thinking "isn't he supposed to be bat-guano crazy??"

Modifié par Mel_Redux, 12 mars 2011 - 04:35 .

[Lady Jess]

SurelyForth wrote...

nenosronhir wrote...

Not to say I don't feel bad about her death, but I resent her for letting it go so far.

That's how I feel. And by the time Hawke got done talking with her during Anders' quest, she resented her, too. She claims to be trying to balance the situation, but her idea of balance is letting things escalate on both sides. She wouldn't even need to outright say "I support the mages!" Simply removing Meredith from the position of Knight-Commander would have saved so many lives, templar and mage. Cullen seemed to be well-respected amongst the templars and he was far more reasonable. I think the mages would have been at least temporarily appeased by the move, knowing that their situation was being acknowledged, and at the very least it would have stopped escalating so rapidly.

But, you know, the Maker. I wonder if Anders' bomb was the sign she had been waiting for, something to prove to her at last that the situation had moved well beyond something that could be balanced. 

I think she knew it was coming, just not what IT would be.  And Cullen was great this game. Seriously great. I loved him. And I'm GLAD they didn't use Greg Ellis for Anders because...well first, wierd. Second, Alot  of people really loved Anders but HATED Cullen, and I think when Anders  gets all passionate and preachy, it would sound too much like that tower scene before Uldred.

[Lady Jess]

Mel_Redux wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...
Cullen seemed to be well-respected amongst the templars and he was far more reasonable.

That's something I never though I'd hear.

He seriously surprised the hell out of me.  The whole time I was thinking "isn't he supposed to be bat-guano crazy??"

Bat Guano...rofl Oh great, coffee in the keyboard, thanks MEL!

[MelRedux]

Lady Jess wrote...

Mel_Redux wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...
Cullen seemed to be well-respected amongst the templars and he was far more reasonable.

That's something I never though I'd hear.

He seriously surprised the hell out of me.  The whole time I was thinking "isn't he supposed to be bat-guano crazy??"

Bat Guano...rofl Oh great, coffee in the keyboard, thanks MEL!

Happy to help!

[Raiil]

Lady Jess wrote...

nenosronhir wrote...

panamakira wrote...
I can understand that Meredith is crazy but I just cannot justify his actions . I sided with the mages. I let him live and by her side because I think the love him and Lady Hawke have is genuine but he chose to be like Meredith through his actions. They are both completely mad driven by the principle of their cause, that they whole-heartedly believe is bigger than people's lives. If you're sacrificing people and are building your just principle upon the blood of innocents, then the mages will not be any better than the Templars and the whole thing will repeat itself over and over again.

There should be a better way to free mages or make a compromise between the Chantry and the Circle and even take a substantial amount of power from the Chantry. They shouldn't be allowed to have that much power ever again but if mages take down this path of pay blood with blood, the whole thing will never end.

Either way he accomplished what he wanted. There will be a war. Whether it will benefit the mages or not remains to be seen. As I look back though, there seems to be bigger things happening between Orlais and Ferelden and maybe even other nations. There will be war everywhere. I hope there's a blight coming then that will be the cherry on top.

We don't even know what Flemeth wants or what Morrigan fears. Also the hints that mages are being born more than before rises a lot of question about Thedas. I don't think we have enough context to decide what is right or wrong or what would benefit the mages the most.

Considering when/if you run into your sibling, I think I recall Carver mentioning "I should be fighting the Blight," (I can't remember if this is in Act II or III, though). Which still pegs it years after the Blight in Ferelden(unless I'm misremembering)... *shifty eyes* Thedas is going to hell in a handbasket! Huzzah! XD

As an aside, though, the war between Ferelden and Orlais intrigues me, because Orlais is the seat of the Divine. CURIOUSER AND CURIOUSER.

The one thing I'm certain of in regards to the mages is that I'm glad they get to make the choice, regardless of what it took to get there. Whatever happens, my mage Hawke (at the very least) will not regret being at Anders' side, will not regret being a part of this, even if that means her hands are stained as well. :3

And in Origins if you do NOT complete the dark ritual, Morrigan ends up in Orlais at the side of Empress Celene...

Frankly, I am quite happy to know since my queen cousland VANISHED at least someone is looking for her!! Thank you Leliana I will never set you on fire in camp again<3

Also Bodhan and Sandal were invited to Orlais, and come on, I really believe that's a sign too. What with the Divine getting old and stuff.

Here's to hoping Hawke and Anders (if he survives) go there.

[StellaSmooth]

Mel_Redux wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...
Cullen seemed to be well-respected amongst the templars and he was far more reasonable.

That's something I never though I'd hear.

He seriously surprised the hell out of me.  The whole time I was thinking "isn't he supposed to be bat-guano crazy??"

I agree 110% !!  Playing a mage in Origins you definitely see that. He's all sweet and little boy with a crush on that which is forbidden to him THEN absolutely anti-mage by the time you get to him when the tower is in a ruckus. I can't say that I blame the poor guy and his reaction especially when he believed that the blood mages were using his previous desire for you against him. Plus, watching all of your comrades die horrible deaths at the hands of abominations could ruin anyone's day.

However, he's had plently of time to put that behind him. Dispite his earlier ranting which helped him move through the ranks in Kirkwall he's had the time to mellow. Even he can't be blind to the fact that Meredith is taking things to far. I guess he just grew up into a sensible, good looking chap that stole Anders' voice. XD

[Lady Jess]

Ok my best screenshot ever...



And you just know she's back there thinking "hot!"

[Lady Jess]

lamppostinwinter wrote...

Did everyone forget the fact that Cullen basically says that mages are unnatural creatures? He goes on and on about how mages "aren't like you and me". He may be more tolerant that Meredith, but at least she has the excuse of an ancient lyrium thing poisoning her mind. Cullen just out right thinks that mages have no humanity. He's still pretty insane.

Well mages AREN'T like normal people. And who has seen more of what can happen than Cullen? I'm surprised he's at all tolerant after what happened to him and his fellow templars at Kinloch Hold. HE has more reason to think that way than Meredith. PTSD > Lyrium laser sword.? And at least his mind can be changed during the game as well.

[snarkycleric]

Lady Jess wrote...

Well mages AREN'T like normal people. And who has seen more of what can happen than Cullen? I'm surprised he's at all tolerant after what happened to him and his fellow templars at Kinloch Hold. HE has more reason to think that way than Meredith.

I'm amazed he actually listened to reason too, given what happened to him in DA:O; he's mellowed out from what I expected him to be. I mean, the epilogue had him either ruling with an iron fist or going mad and killing three mage apprentices (was it three? I can't remember the exact number.) And, well. Cullen may think that mages have no humanity, but a) he was imprisoned and tortured by mages-turned-abominations; despite all this you can actually tell him that you think mages and the Chantry need to have some kind of balance, and he will concede the point to some degree. It's still very much a "they need to see why we do this" in favour of the Chantry, but he actually concedes that maybe there's room for understanding, which is nothing short of amazing considering the hell he went through in DA:O.

Valentia X wrote...


Oh, I know Anders's anger corrupted Justice. It just wasn't intentional. It wasn't as if Anders sat in this room, rubbing his hands together with glee and thinking, 'Finally, I will show that pesky spirit what it's like to be a REAL demon! Fear my nefarious cackle of laughter!'. It was, at the heart of it, an accident.

*SNORFLE* I laughed at that image.

[StellaSmooth]

Lady Jess wrote...

lamppostinwinter wrote...

Did everyone forget the fact that Cullen basically says that mages are unnatural creatures? He goes on and on about how mages "aren't like you and me". He may be more tolerant that Meredith, but at least she has the excuse of an ancient lyrium thing poisoning her mind. Cullen just out right thinks that mages have no humanity. He's still pretty insane.

Well mages AREN'T like normal people. And who has seen more of what can happen than Cullen? I'm surprised he's at all tolerant after what happened to him and his fellow templars at Kinloch Hold. HE has more reason to think that way than Meredith. PTSD > Lyrium laser sword.? And at least his mind can be changed during the game as well.

LOL @ Lyrium laser sword!!! He definitely has more of a reason to be against the mages than anyone else. I completely agree with that. Even though I was SUPER pro-mage in my playthrough he was still a voice of reason, not to mention that he totally sided with me when the Lyrium laser sword really got down to business AND he was the first to back off once it was all over.

[MelRedux]

Am I the only one that thought Knight Commander Meredith looked like an old She-ra? Crazy super powered sword and all!