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[ipgd]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Short-sighted in the sense he did not think about the comign war and how mages are supposed to win it. And he most likely succeeded in alienating the people, who were crucial in helping the mage underground.

Yes, his goal is to start a war and he succeeded. Wanting to start a war and not knowing or planning how to win it, and alienating all kinds of potential allies, is short sighted.

What he planned was to set himself up as a martyr figure for a movement backed by his manifesto. I'd agree that he hadn't thought about his role in it all if he were allowed to live, given he was certain Hawke would kill him, and in that respect he's probably unsure of how to proceed -- but his attack against the Chantry was calculated one, both symbolically and tactically; by killing Elthina, he was by-proxy authorizing Meredith to invoke the Right, and he knew that she would use his actions as an excuse to do so.

The key point of his plan is polarization. He attacked the Chantry specifically to set normal people against the mages; by ensuring that no one would treat them with any pity or mercy, he is forcing the mages to unite in solidarity. The cowards and chantry loyalists among the mages will not be able to submit peacefully, because the world will be against even them, and their options are reduced to exactly two: die, or participate in the revolution themselves. That is a point he talks about; he believes the Circle exists because they let it.

Smart? I don't know. It's impossible to say until we actually see the fallout of his actions. But I do believe he was largely cognizant of what he was doing.

[KnightofPhoenix]

ipgd wrote...
What he planned was to set himself up as a martyr figure for a movement backed by his manifesto.

Which is not nearly enough to win a war and build something after.
I understand his short term goals. I am questoining his long term thinking, if he even had one. I don't think he has one at all, barring rethoric and an obscure manifesto he wrote 3 years before becoming insane.

Yes I certainly agree that he wants to polarize mages and like any extremist, wants them to adopt the mentality of "either with us or against us". But that's not what I would call a long term plan to win a war. Like Upsettingshorts eloquently explained, I think this stems more from ideology than a calculated strategic move. That he thinks it's better to die than live like this. Which for me, is short sighted.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 08 juin 2011 - 04:37 .

[Sialater]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

ipgd wrote...
What he planned was to set himself up as a martyr figure for a movement backed by his manifesto.

Which is not nearly enough to win a war and build something after.
I understand his short term goals. I am questoining his long term thinking, if he even had one. I don't think he has one at all, barring rethoric and an obscure manifesto he wrote 3 years before becoming insane.

Yes I certainly agree that he wants to polarize mages and like any extremist, wants them to adopt the mentality of "either with us or against us". But that's not what I would call a long term plan to win a war. Like Upsettingshorts eloquently explained, I think this stems more from ideology than a calculated strategic move. That he thinks it's better to die than live like this. Which for me, is short sighted.

This is why he set Hawke up to be the leader afterward.  He was hoping she'd lead the mages, no matter his relationship to her. 

[LobselVith8]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

He did not consider the latter, how to win such a fight, and that is of course one of the issues with his action that ties in to a couple of others with it - as it can be argued that starting a war with no hope of victory, or at best no plan for it, is inherently - on some level - unjust.

Doesn't Anders say at one point that he thinks an apostate Hawke should lead the mage rebellion? Maybe he expects the Champion of Kirkwall to plan out how to win such a fight?

[Ryzaki]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

He did not consider the latter, how to win such a fight, and that is of course one of the issues with his action that ties in to a couple of others with it - as it can be argued that starting a war with no hope of victory, or at best no plan for it, is inherently - on some level - unjust.

Doesn't Anders say at one point that he thinks an apostate Hawke should lead the mage rebellion? Maybe he expects the Champion of Kirkwall to plan out how to win such a fight?

 

Problem with that is it requires an apostate Hawke whose friends with him. Something that won't always be true. 

[Patriciachr34]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...
And what was Anders thinking? Agreeing to let another being share his mind and having equal if not more autonomy over his body in the most impossibly intimate and irreversible process imaginable? Has he no sense of personal borders and privacy? It's not like he and Justice were best friends. I would never.

Anders was very imprudent and irresponsable.

I thought he was wiser than he sounded in Awakening, but turns out I was wrong. And come to think of it (as SF pointed out), the signs were there.

You know, for once I find myself agreeing with you KOP.  I believe Anders thinks primarily with his heart on his sleeve.  I found this true even in Awakenings.  The man is not stupid.  In my opinion he is highly intelligent.  His intellect and bad boy demeanor was what made him attractive in Awakenings.  However, he let his emotions get in the way of being a truly effective revolutionary.  Blowing up the chantry was more of a suicide attempt rather than a revolutionary catalyst.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sialater wrote...
This is why he set Hawke up to be the leader afterward.  He was hoping she'd lead the mages, no matter his relationship to her. 

Which makes him even more foolish (and not only because Hawke can be pro-Templar), but I won't get into why I think Hawke is incompetent and useless.

[Sialater]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sialater wrote...
This is why he set Hawke up to be the leader afterward.  He was hoping she'd lead the mages, no matter his relationship to her. 

Which makes him even more foolish (and not only because Hawke can be pro-Templar), but I won't get into why I think Hawke is incompetent and useless.

Hawke is incompetent and useless due to the idiot ball she's forced to carry for 7 years. 

But, yes, Anders is book smart... just not tactically smart.

[KnightofPhoenix]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

He did not consider the latter, how to win such a fight, and that is of course one of the issues with his action that ties in to a couple of others with it - as it can be argued that starting a war with no hope of victory, or at best no plan for it, is inherently - on some level - unjust.

Doesn't Anders say at one point that he thinks an apostate Hawke should lead the mage rebellion? Maybe he expects the Champion of Kirkwall to plan out how to win such a fight?

Then he shouldn't have kept Hawke in the dark.

And he blows up the Chantry regardless of who Hawke sides with

[upsettingshorts]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

He did not consider the latter, how to win such a fight, and that is of course one of the issues with his action that ties in to a couple of others with it - as it can be argued that starting a war with no hope of victory, or at best no plan for it, is inherently - on some level - unjust.

Doesn't Anders say at one point that he thinks an apostate Hawke should lead the mage rebellion? Maybe he expects the Champion of Kirkwall to plan out how to win such a fight?

Which would be pretty damn presumptive on his part considering he didn't at any point let Hawke in on the details of what he was doing in the first place regardless of Hawke's class or Friend/Rival status.

It'd be a lot different if, given the right circumstances (like Mage Hawke, Friend) he described the plan and gave Hawke the opportunity to give some kind of input or make preparations or at the very least mentally prepare for the inevitable mage rebellion.  But he doesn't.

So I'm gonna stick with the "no plan for victory" interpretation of Anders' actions. 

Sialater wrote...

But, yes, Anders is book smart... just not tactically smart.

Just a minor nitpick.  His tactic of blowing up the Chantry to goad Meredith into invoking the Right was sound.

What Anders isn't prepared for is the strategic fallout from that decision across Thedas, the big picture.  His only position on the big picture is, "Can't live with how it is now, better to fight even if we die." 

Tactically Anders is fine, strategically Anders is ???.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 08 juin 2011 - 04:48 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

ipgd wrote...
What he planned was to set himself up as a martyr figure for a movement backed by his manifesto.

Which is not nearly enough to win a war and build something after.
I understand his short term goals. I am questoining his long term thinking, if he even had one. I don't think he has one at all, barring rethoric and an obscure manifesto he wrote 3 years before becoming insane.

Yes I certainly agree that he wants to polarize mages and like any extremist, wants them to adopt the mentality of "either with us or against us". But that's not what I would call a long term plan to win a war. Like Upsettingshorts eloquently explained, I think this stems more from ideology than a calculated strategic move. That he thinks it's better to die than live like this. Which for me, is short sighted.

But that assumes the question is that simple... there is a difference between "living like this" and "letting things keep getting worse." One of the thing that pushes Anders to this is watching things get worse, and I'd say that right now there is very little light in the world for Mages. Orlais is poking at Ferelden, the one country where the ruler supports free circles. The Quinari are readying for War with Tevinter. If things go as they seem to be poised to go, Mages in ten years, in fifty years might find themselves squeezed between the Chantry and the Qun. And let me tell you... in a war between the Chantry and the Qun, mages will be the biggest casualties and greatest weapons. They will be used and controlled and killed without mercy.

If Ferelden falls before Mages gain freedom, it will be harder to hold it. With Ferelden you have a centrally-located leader who is willing to take a stand for Mage Freedom. Starting something before Ferelden falls is vitally important.

[ipgd]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I find it far fetched that Anders would think murdering mages for an act he alone committed would make sense, regardless of his state of mind. He's been pro-mage for seven years now, I don't see him coming around to the line of thought that the mages should be killed when they're innocent of his actions.

That's just it -- he didn't. He's unstable, and not thinking about it with lucidity. You can already see his regret in his Gallows speech, and he very clearly intends to kill himself after it's said and done.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Which is not nearly enough to win a war and build something after.
I understand his short term goals. I am questoining his long term thinking, if he even had one. I don't think he has one at all, barring rethoric and an obscure manifesto he wrote 3 years before becoming insane.

Yes I certainly agree that he wants to polarize mages and like any extremist, wants them to adopt the mentality of "either with us or against us". But that's not what I would call a long term plan to win a war. Like Upsettingshorts eloquently explained, I think this stems more from ideology than a calculated strategic move. That he thinks it's better to die than live like this. Which for me, is short sighted.

His plan is "****** everyone off enough until what happened in Kirkwall happens everywhere". Granted, he's not a general, and he's probably not thought out the core logistics of each individual conflict that might arise, but on a long scale, I think he has a pretty good idea of what will come out of his actions (i.e. a chain reaction of rebellion and violence mirroring Kirkwall throughout the Circles). Again, it may be a horrible mistake, but he believes the mages will be able to win when they're cornered.

Modifié par ipgd, 08 juin 2011 - 04:46 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
The Quinari are readying for War with Tevinter.

It is precisely because the Qunari are poised to invade, that making Thedas fall into civil war is a particularily bad idea. He is risking overthrowing a tyranny, only to get a worse one (when it comes to mages).

If Ferelden falls before Mages gain freedom, it will be harder to hold it. With Ferelden you have a centrally-located leader who is willing to take a stand for Mage Freedom. Starting something before Ferelden falls is vitally important.

If he has Ferelden on his mind, then he should have established connections with the Crown and go there and help them, instead of act out of his own whim. If anything, he might have accelerated an Exalted March on Feredlen.

I see nothing even remotely hinting at Anders taking Ferelden into consideration. According to what he said to Leliana, and what he did with the Chantry, it's pretty clear he doesn't care about having allies. If he did, he wouldn't have alienated everyone who isnt' a mage. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 08 juin 2011 - 04:56 .

[Sialater]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...



And he blows up the Chantry regardless of who Hawke sides with

I thought it was Justice who blows up the Chantry on the rivalry path, and not Anders. I may be wrong.

No, you're correct.  Justice assumes direct control.

[LobselVith8]

Ryzaki wrote...

Problem with that is it requires an apostate Hawke whose friends with him. Something that won't always be true. 

I wasn't thinking it was universally true, only that it was an explanation for why Anders may not have planned ahead if he expected his apostate confidant and friend to lead his people to emancipate themselves from the Chantry and the Order of Templars. This is the storyline where Anders met Justice even if Anders was never recruited and Justice was killed at the Dragonbone Wastes, and where a pro-templar Hawke can show the mages that the templars can be defied... apparently by siding with said templars and enforcing the Right of Annulment against the Circle of Kirkwall.

ipgd wrote...

That's just it -- he didn't. He's unstable, and not thinking about it with lucidity. You can already see his regret in his Gallows speech, and he very clearly intends to kill himself after it's said and done.

In my opinion, I don't think it's in-character for Anders to side with the templars, much less for the reason that are stated by a pro-templar Hawke to Anders, which don't really make such sense since there's no revolution going on when it was only Anders who destroyed the Chantry.

[KnightofPhoenix]

ipgd wrote...
His plan is "****** everyone off enough until what happened in Kirkwall happens everywhere". Granted, he's not a general, and he's probably not thought out the core logistics of each individual conflict that might arise, but on a long scale, I think he has a pretty good idea of what will come out of his actions (i.e. a chain reaction of rebellion and violence mirroring Kirkwall throughout the Circles). Again, it may be a horrible mistake, but he believes the mages will be able to win when they're cornered.

That for me is not a plan. It's simply an act based on the wild assumption that mages who are not trained to fight a war, are capable of winning only because they are cornered, with pratically no allies, while still preserving their sanity. If Orsino is any indication, I fully expect a large number of mages to lose it.

[upsettingshorts]

semiofftopic:

Well, in a non-video game world as a "Mage General" I'd first be worried about a few things:

* Logistics (Food, water, lyrium, kittens)
* Organization (As mages are outnumbered they need to be in cohesive units, preferably small ones that are able to move swiftly, more importantly their actions have to be coordinated for the desired political effect - stay "on message")
* Chain of command (ties into the above)
* A plan for victory, probably to force the Chantry and/or Templars to the negotiating table. Eradication of the church as a war goal would cost many more lives, on both sides, and probably alienate the population mages need to hide in from contributing peripheral or active support.

Anders jengas the Chantry before considering any of that, which puts the mages at an immediate - but not necessarily permanent - disadvantage. I mean, I imagine the Circles would - well, those who survived - maintain organization individually but they'd be like little allied city-states without any established lines of supply or communication and lack coordination. The Templars by contrast do not lack for any of these things, and while they are bound to be shocked and put on the back foot by what Anders did, they're in a better position to react to the new status quo because they're a real organization with a chain of command.

I honestly would expect a lot of guerilla tactics and pillaging from the mages. It would be unrealistically optimistic to imagine that regular people would - even if sympathetic to the cause - risk their homes and livelihoods to supply the mages with say, food. They'd have to take it, either from the Templars (very risky) or from civilian homes and farms.

Reason I bothered to describe all that is I figure Anders would mention something like something in the above had he considered, well, how to win. He does not.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 08 juin 2011 - 04:57 .

[Ryzaki]

LobselVith8 wrote...
I wasn't thinking it was universally true, only that it was an explanation for why Anders may not have planned ahead if he expected his apostate confidant and friend to lead his people to emancipate themselves from the Chantry and the Order of Templars. This is the storyline where Anders met Justice even if Anders was never recruited and Justice was killed at the Dragonbone Wastes, and where a pro-templar Hawke can show the mages that the templars can be defied... apparently by siding with said templars and enforcing the Right of Annulment against the Circle of Kirkwall.

 

Yeah that never fails to amuse me. 

[Sialater]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Sialater wrote...

But, yes, Anders is book smart... just not tactically smart.

Just a minor nitpick.  His tactic of blowing up the Chantry to goad Meredith into invoking the Right was sound.

What Anders isn't prepared for is the strategic fallout from that decision across Thedas, the big picture.  His only position on the big picture is, "Can't live with how it is now, better to fight even if we die." 

Tactically Anders is fine, strategically Anders is ???.

You're right.  I should use the correct word. 

Strategically, he's an idiot.  But then that's part of his charm.

[Heidenreich]

ipgd wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I find it far fetched that Anders would think murdering mages for an act he alone committed would make sense, regardless of his state of mind. He's been pro-mage for seven years now, I don't see him coming around to the line of thought that the mages should be killed when they're innocent of his actions.

That's just it -- he didn't. He's unstable, and not thinking about it with lucidity. You can already see his regret in his Gallows speech, and he very clearly intends to kill himself after it's said and done.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Which is not nearly enough to win a war and build something after.
I understand his short term goals. I am questoining his long term thinking, if he even had one. I don't think he has one at all, barring rethoric and an obscure manifesto he wrote 3 years before becoming insane.

Yes I certainly agree that he wants to polarize mages and like any extremist, wants them to adopt the mentality of "either with us or against us". But that's not what I would call a long term plan to win a war. Like Upsettingshorts eloquently explained, I think this stems more from ideology than a calculated strategic move. That he thinks it's better to die than live like this. Which for me, is short sighted.

His plan is "****** everyone off enough until what happened in Kirkwall happens everywhere". Granted, he's not a general, and he's probably not thought out the core logistics of each individual conflict that might arise, but on a long scale, I think he has a pretty good idea of what will come out of his actions (i.e. a chain reaction of rebellion and violence mirroring Kirkwall throughout the Circles). Again, it may be a horrible mistake, but he believes the mages will be able to win when they're cornered.

Holy **** I love it when you boys debate. *fans self* We need you guys to hang around and do it more often. :wub::wub::wub::wub::wub::wub::wub:


All in all, Anders WANTS to die, WANTS the mages to have no other choice. There's no option for surrender. No Option to stop Anders, and No option but to fight. It's his whole reasoning. He's seen first hand that the bull**** the chantry feeds mages is universally accepted by them. And they shouldn't be accepting it. At least this is how he feels. It doesn't matter that mages are dangerous. All it matters is that they're treated as sub-human (or elf, lul) abominiations, even if they've lived their whole life peacefully.

His issue is as much with the mages themselves as it is with the chantry and the templars, and the longer he lives in Kirkwall outside their brow-beaten and physically beaten influence, the more clearly he can see that there's no other solution but FORCED. Mages who are FORCED to fight, will fight.They'll unite, and they'll overthrow the chantry and the templars.

[ipgd]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

I thought it was Justice who blows up the Chantry on the rivalry path, and not Anders. I may be wrong.

He does. The idea is pretty obviously Justice's, though he may agree with it on the friendship path.

LobselVith8 wrote...

In my opinion, I don't think it's in-character for Anders to side with the templars, much less for the reason that are stated by a pro-templar Hawke to Anders, which don't really make such sense since there's no revolution going on when it was only Anders who destroyed the Chantry.

It's an out of character action, but his circumstances are such that it's not unbelievable that he would do so. Again, he's... nuts. Sometimes, when you are having a mental breakdown, you do things you wouldn't normally do.

I'd agree with you if he were actually making a calm and calculated decision to support the Right, but he's not. His judgment is muddled by a) the guilt over having blown up a church, the guilt of having corrupted Justice to the point where he would blow up a church, and c) the fact it probably takes all of his willpower to prevent Justice from Assuming Direct Control, given he just made the decision to openly fight against him and throw away everything the both of them worked towards. Also, he just blew up a church.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

semiofftopic:

Well, in a non-video game world as a "Mage General" I'd first be worried about a few things:

* Logistics (Food, water, lyrium, kittens)
* Organization (As mages are outnumbered they need to be in cohesive units, preferably small ones that are able to move swiftly, more importantly their actions have to be coordinated for the desired political effect - stay "on message")
* Chain of command (ties into the above)
* A plan for victory, probably to force the Chantry and/or Templars to the negotiating table. Eradication of the church as a war goal would cost many more lives, on both sides, and probably alienate the population mages need to hide in from contributing peripheral or active support.

And perhaps more importantly:
* Keeping mages from succumbing to demonic possessions durign the chaos of war

Mages are most susceptible when they are under heavy stress, fear, anger and hatred. In what I think will be a more chaotic than usual kind of war, mages will be highly susceptible.

[Heidenreich]

Ryzaki wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
I wasn't thinking it was universally true, only that it was an explanation for why Anders may not have planned ahead if he expected his apostate confidant and friend to lead his people to emancipate themselves from the Chantry and the Order of Templars. This is the storyline where Anders met Justice even if Anders was never recruited and Justice was killed at the Dragonbone Wastes, and where a pro-templar Hawke can show the mages that the templars can be defied... apparently by siding with said templars and enforcing the Right of Annulment against the Circle of Kirkwall.

 

Yeah that never fails to amuse me. 

Actually they're shown the templars can be defied by Anders' actions of blowing up the chantry, reguardless of what side Hawke sides with. If Hawke sides with the templars then he (or she) ALSO tells Meredith to go to hell, even if they allow her to kill beathany/the surrendering mages.

So, yea.. "**** you meredith" can be construed as going against the templars ;p