57020 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

Heidenreich wrote...

Actually they're shown the templars can be defied by Anders' actions of blowing up the chantry, reguardless of what side Hawke sides with. If Hawke sides with the templars then he (or she) ALSO tells Meredith to go to hell, even if they allow her to kill beathany/the surrendering mages.

So, yea.. "**** you meredith" can be construed as going against the templars ;p

 

So...the templars can be defied. By every single mage in the city being executed for a crime an apostate committed?  

Meredith =/= the templars 

Even many of the templars thought she was a problem. 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Heidenreich wrote...
Holy **** I love it when you boys debate. *fans self* We need you guys to hang around and do it more often. :wub::wub::wub::wub::wub::wub::wub:

Eh, I used to do it in the Alistair thread, before I was politely told to gtfo

His issue is as much with the mages themselves as it is with the chantry and the templars, and the longer he lives in Kirkwall outside their brow-beaten and physically beaten influence, the more clearly he can see that there's no other solution but FORCED. Mages who are FORCED to fight, will fight.They'll unite, and they'll overthrow the chantry and the templars.

As inspiring as that sounds, it sounds more like empty rethoric to me rather than a real tangible plan for victory. And more importantly, a plan for post-victory.

Mages forced to fight are more likely to do what he did. Succumb to spirits / demons and then lose it.

[ipgd]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Heidenreich wrote...
Holy **** I love it when you boys debate. *fans self* We need you guys to hang around and do it more often. :wub::wub::wub::wub::wub::wub::wub:

Eh, I used to do it in the Alistair thread, before I was politely told to gtfo

Thankfully, the Anderps thread is open to things other than picspam and mindless fangirl squee.

[Sialater]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Heidenreich wrote...
Holy **** I love it when you boys debate. *fans self* We need you guys to hang around and do it more often. :wub::wub::wub::wub::wub::wub::wub:

Eh, I used to do it in the Alistair thread, before I was politely told to gtfo

His issue is as much with the mages themselves as it is with the chantry and the templars, and the longer he lives in Kirkwall outside their brow-beaten and physically beaten influence, the more clearly he can see that there's no other solution but FORCED. Mages who are FORCED to fight, will fight.They'll unite, and they'll overthrow the chantry and the templars.

As inspiring as that sounds, it sounds more like empty rethoric to me rather than a real tangible plan for victory. And more importantly, a plan for post-victory.

Mages forced to fight are more likely to do what he did. Succumb to spirits / demons and then lose it.

As long as we get to take breaks in the heavy debates with random silliness, I don't think any of us run from such things.

Wasn't it Cullen who pointed out, that when cornered, a mage has a few more options than a normal person?

[Ryzaki]

Sialater wrote...
As long as we get to take breaks in the heavy debates with random silliness, I don't think any of us run from such things.

Wasn't it Cullen who pointed out, that when cornered, a mage has a few more options than a normal person?

 

The whole "they have options we don't." bit? I don't think that was Cullen. I forgot who it was though. :/

[CulturalGeekGirl]

[quote]KnightofPhoenix wrote...

[quote]CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
The Quinari are readying for War with Tevinter.[/quote]

It is precisely because the Qunari are poised to invade, that making Thedas fall into civil war is a particularily bad idea. He is risking overthrowing a tyranny, only to get a worse one (when it comes to mages).
[/quote][/quote]

I disagree. The threat of war with the Quinari makes simply slaughtering every mage in Thedas not an option. I think that even the Chantry knows this... that's why they didn't want to just Annul the Kirkwall mages straight out, or make them all tranquil, or evacuate them all somewhere safer - because Kirkwall is under a greater threat from the Quinari than anywhere else.

[quote]KnightofPhoenix wrote...

[quote]CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
If Ferelden falls before Mages gain freedom, it will be harder to hold it. With Ferelden you have a centrally-located leader who is willing to take a stand for Mage Freedom. Starting something before Ferelden falls is vitally important.
[/quote]

If he has Ferelden on his mind, then he should have established connections with the Crown and go there and help them, instead of act out of his own whim. If anything, he might have accelerated an Exalted March on Feredlen.

I see nothing even remotely hinting at Anders taking Ferelden into consideration. According to what he said to Leliana, and what he did with the Chatnry, it's pretty clear he doesn't care about having allies. If he did, he wouldn't have alienated everyone who isnt' a mage. 
[/quote][/quote]

The Templars have already been pretty steadily working at alienating every minority who isn't a normal, chantry-going peasant... overruling the King of Ferelden, arguing with (and in some cases, actively clashing with) the Wardens, persecuting the City Elves, hunting down the Dalish. Their relationship with the Dwarves varies based on some of your decisions, so that's up in the air. But both Ferelden and Rivain have very strong reasons to oppose the Chantry and Orlais right now.

I will agree that Anders isn't planning for his own allies... because he doesn't want to be seen as the head of this movement. He's setting himself up to be somewhere between Joan of Arc and Judas.

Ok, I need to clarify the Judas thing. There's a clever bit of modern thinking about Judas that I rather like. The premise is that Judas did what he did not because he was a bad man, but because he was the only apostle willing to make the ultimate sacrifice - become history's greatest monster in order to set the wheels of Jesus's divinity and ascent into motion. The thinking goes that Jesus knew he had to seem to be betrayed, so he asked Judas to do it, and Judas agreed, even though he knew it would doom him to be remembered only as a force for evil. (I'm not here to argue the merits of this view, I'm just explaining that this was the metaphor I was going for.)

Basically, I think that Anders wanted to be a symbol, but he also acknowledged that he might eventually be a symbol that mages needed to give themselves some distance from. If he had been talking to the King of Ferelden and gathering allies, it would be impossible for the mage movement to disavow him if they needed to later. By not being directly involved with the organization, he frees them from the taint of his actions.

I honestly don't see a "better time" for mage independence coming in the next few centuries. Can you describe a likely scenario that you think would lead to more positive circumstances? Bear in mind that we don't have a Xanatos or Vetinari on the board here (you could say Flemeth, but we don't know what side she's on and she's rnore of a Puck or a Weatherwax: a wildcard with hard-to-pin-down motives.) The circumstances have to be something achievable by a character we've met or are aware of... and I don't see it happening.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 08 juin 2011 - 05:12 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

ipgd wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Heidenreich wrote...
Holy **** I love it when you boys debate. *fans self* We need you guys to hang around and do it more often. :wub::wub::wub::wub::wub::wub::wub:

Eh, I used to do it in the Alistair thread, before I was politely told to gtfo

Thankfully, the Anderps thread is open to things other than picspam and mindless fangirl squee.

I'll feel bad if I didn't say the Alistair thread was much more than this and I had a great time there, despite not being a fan of Alistair, whether it came to discussions, OTpicness and usual craziness.

[Heidenreich]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Heidenreich wrote...
Holy **** I love it when you boys debate. *fans self* We need you guys to hang around and do it more often. :wub::wub::wub::wub::wub::wub::wub:

Eh, I used to do it in the Alistair thread, before I was politely told to gtfo

His issue is as much with the mages themselves as it is with the chantry and the templars, and the longer he lives in Kirkwall outside their brow-beaten and physically beaten influence, the more clearly he can see that there's no other solution but FORCED. Mages who are FORCED to fight, will fight.They'll unite, and they'll overthrow the chantry and the templars.

As inspiring as that sounds, it sounds more like empty rethoric to me rather than a real tangible plan for victory. And more importantly, a plan for post-victory.

Mages forced to fight are more likely to do what he did. Succumb to spirits / demons and then lose it.

Yes, but the best part of Anders is he's not sane. He's NEVER been sane. He's like a caged animal who's ****ing snapped, murdered everyone around him, and then stands there not knowing what to do next because he's been caged his whole life.

Crazy and Sexy.. mmmm

[KnightofPhoenix]

Sialater wrote...
Wasn't it Cullen who pointed out, that when cornered, a mage has a few more options than a normal person?

Yea they can either shoot lighting or a fireball. Being dangerous =/= being good at war.
History showed time and time again that professionalism is key in any war, and not brute strength and raw power.

As upsettingshorts pointed out, mages need a strong organization and chain of command, suited for war.

[Sialater]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

ipgd wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Heidenreich wrote...
Holy **** I love it when you boys debate. *fans self* We need you guys to hang around and do it more often. :wub::wub::wub::wub::wub::wub::wub:

Eh, I used to do it in the Alistair thread, before I was politely told to gtfo

Thankfully, the Anderps thread is open to things other than picspam and mindless fangirl squee.

I'll feel bad if I didn't say the Alistair thread was much more than this and I had a great time there, despite not being a fan of Alistair, whether it came to discussions, OTpicness and usual craziness.

I'll uh... keep my opinions of that thread to myself. 

[Sialater]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Sialater wrote...
Wasn't it Cullen who pointed out, that when cornered, a mage has a few more options than a normal person?

Yea they can either shoot lighting or a fireball. Being dangerous =/= being good at war.
History showed time and time again that professionalism is key in any war, and not brute strength and raw power.

As upsettingshorts pointed out, mages need a strong organization and chain of command, suited for war.

I was actually agreeing with you...  The average person can't open themselves to Abomination as a line of last defense.

[LobselVith8]

ipgd wrote...

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

I thought it was Justice who blows up the Chantry on the rivalry path, and not Anders. I may be wrong.

He does. The idea is pretty obviously Justice's, though he may agree with it on the friendship path.

Anders seems to have reconciled the fact that he's merged with Justice better if Hawke befriended him, although I can see where people would debate whether that's good or bad.

ipgd wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

In my opinion, I don't think it's in-character for Anders to side with the templars, much less for the reason that are stated by a pro-templar Hawke to Anders, which don't really make such sense since there's no revolution going on when it was only Anders who destroyed the Chantry.

It's an out of character action, but his circumstances are such that it's not unbelievable that he would do so. Again, he's... nuts. Sometimes, when you are having a mental breakdown, you do things you wouldn't normally do.

I'd agree with you if he were actually making a calm and calculated decision to support the Right, but he's not. His judgment is muddled by a) the guilt over having blown up a church, the guilt of having corrupted Justice to the point where he would blow up a church, and c) the fact it probably takes all of his willpower to prevent Justice from Assuming Direct Control, given he just made the decision to openly fight against him and throw away everything the both of them worked towards. Also, he just blew up a church.

Anders is coherent enough to speak, walk, and fight tactically. Saying he's "nuts" and isn't really cognitive of what he's doing would mean he shouldn't even be fighting alongside Hawke if you think he's so mentally unbalanced. Anders feels guilty over his loss to Justice, but I still don't think it makes sense for him to side with the templars on the basis of Hawke's argument of putting down a rebellion that doesn't even exist when it's the action of one man who isn't even a member of the Kirkwall Circle, unless Hawke has also lost his mind and isn't aware of Anders' confession about destroying the Chantry.

[CalJones]

Ah but you're always welcome here, KoP!

I think Anders has an over-romanticised view of the revolution - the underdog fighting to the death for freedom and so forth. Hawke can play into this, or not, depending on his/her stance and relationship with Anders. No doubt he has succeeded in forcing everyone to take a side (starting a war, in fact) but beyond that, he doesn't seem to have planned anything. I am assuming the fallout will be dealt with in DA3, but we won't really know how it all goes down until then.

[Sialater]

*sigh* Seems I need to find that detailed character analysis of Why Anders Would Side With the Templars again.

[Ryzaki]

Sialater wrote...

*sigh* Seems I need to find that detailed character analysis of Why Anders Would Side With the Templars again.

 

 

Poor Sia. 

I'm tempted to write my own...but walls of text aren't my thing. 

[cmessaz]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

ipgd wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Heidenreich wrote...
Holy **** I love it when you boys debate. *fans self* We need you guys to hang around and do it more often. :wub::wub::wub::wub::wub::wub::wub:

Eh, I used to do it in the Alistair thread, before I was politely told to gtfo

Thankfully, the Anderps thread is open to things other than picspam and mindless fangirl squee.

I'll feel bad if I didn't say the Alistair thread was much more than this and I had a great time there, despite not being a fan of Alistair, whether it came to discussions, OTpicness and usual craziness.

The first Alistair thread was great. The 2nd....not so much. Well...at times it was still ok. But it never got back to the original glory.

Modifié par cmessaz, 08 juin 2011 - 05:23 .

[Sialater]

Ryzaki wrote...

Sialater wrote...

*sigh* Seems I need to find that detailed character analysis of Why Anders Would Side With the Templars again.

 

 

Poor Sia. 

I'm tempted to write my own...but walls of text aren't my thing. 

I'm NOT rewriting it.  I'm hunting for it on that thread.  But really... the writer wrote it, therefore it's in character.  It's up to us to explain it to ourselves.

[KnightofPhoenix]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
The Templars have already been pretty steadily working at alienating every minority who isn't a normal, chantry-going peasant... overruling the King of Ferelden, arguing with (and in some cases, actively clashing with) the Wardens, persecuting the City Elves, hunting down the Dalish. Their relationship with the Dwarves varies based on some of your decisions, so that's up in the air. But both Ferelden and Rivain have very strong reasons to oppose the Chantry and Orlais right now.

Rivain is not strong enough to do squat and it has strong Chantry nationalist elements. Maric and Loghain thought that destroying the Chantry is dangerous as the people of Ferelden are pious.

I highly doubt that anyone is going to sympathize with mages. At best, some countries will be neutral and seek to take advantage of the post war context. And they will have to deal with popular unrest.

The people the Templars alienated directly were in Kirkwall and Anders most likely succeeded in reversing it.

Ok, I need to clarify the Judas thing. There's a clever bit of modern thinking about Judas that I rather like. The premise is that Judas did what he did not because he was a bad man, but because he was the only apostle willing to make the ultimate sacrifice - become history's greatest monster in order to set the wheels of Jesus's divinity and ascent into motion. The thinking goes that Jesus knew he had to seem to be betrayed, so he asked Judas to do it, and Judas agreed, even though he knew it would doom him to be remembered only as a force for evil. (I'm not here to argue the merits of this view, I'm just explaining that this was the metaphor I was going for.)

I really dont' see how Anders is remotely similar to this. Jesus or Judas were not planning for a war or a revolution. Unless you want to tell me that Anders was planning to create a religion centered around himself.

Basically, I think that Anders wanted to be a symbol, but he also acknowledged that he might eventually be a symbol that mages needed to give themselves some distance from. If he had been talking to the King of Ferelden and gathering allies, it would be impossible for the mage movement to disavow him if they needed to later. By not being directly involved with the organization, he frees them from the taint of his actions.

That's only valid thinking if there is a mage movement doing what he doesn't want to do, so as to complement their efforts by beign a symbol. But there is not (the Resolutionists are as idiotic as he is and he even points it out). So he should either wait till there is one, or start one himself.

A symbol is not nearly enough.

Can you describe a likely scenario that you think would lead to more positive circumstances? Bear in mind that we don't have a Xanatos or Vetinari on the board here. The circumstances have to be something achievable by a character we've met or are aware of... and I don't see it happening.

I already did here and no, it doesn't require a Xanatos / Vetinari kind of intellect. It will require an efficient and intelligent statesman (or woman) and visionary.

And why do the circumstances have to be met according to the very limited perspective we have on Thedas?
And if Thedas is not yet ready for such a change, then Anders should accept it and stop acting on his insanity.

As for people who can pull it off. Celene can and she is butting heads with the Chantry. Alistair / Anora can. Perhaps the rulers of Nevarra can.  Perhaps Magisters in Tevinter are interested in seeing such a development.

Anders not even trying to seek out allies like those does not mean they do not exist. And if they don't yet, then Thedas is not ready and he should be content with that.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 08 juin 2011 - 05:26 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

Heidenreich wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

As inspiring as that sounds, it sounds more like empty rethoric to me rather than a real tangible plan for victory. And more importantly, a plan for post-victory.

Mages forced to fight are more likely to do what he did. Succumb to spirits / demons and then lose it.

Yes, but the best part of Anders is he's not sane. He's NEVER been sane. He's like a caged animal who's ****ing snapped, murdered everyone around him, and then stands there not knowing what to do next because he's been caged his whole life.

Crazy and Sexy.. mmmm

Time again to trot out my favorite Anders thread quote: 

"And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit."

Sometimes "sanity" is just a way of explaining why something can't be done, shouldn't be done, why it's better to wait and see, why it's someone else's problem, why it's always been this way. Sometimes it takes a crazy person to open the door that is clearly labeled "do not enter," or to eat the Wolf Peach... fruit of the deadly nightshade. Sometimes the people qualified to run a revolution are too sane to start one.

I'm not saying the mages are going to win this. I'm saying that this was the best possible time for them to try... or the best opportunity they're going to get in centuries. And one man saw this, and set it into motion. Sane enough to see the fulcrum of history, crazy enough to pull the lever without knowing what it's connected to.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 08 juin 2011 - 05:26 .

[SurelyForth]

Seriously, I'm convinced that the Anders sides with the templar ending is pretty much foreshadowed in Shepherding Wolves. Anders is Ketojan at that point.

[ipgd]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Anders is coherent enough to speak, walk, and fight tactically. Saying he's "nuts" and isn't really cognitive of what he's doing would mean he shouldn't even be fighting alongside Hawke if you think he's so mentally unbalanced. Anders feels guilty over his loss to Justice, but I still don't think it makes sense for him to side with the templars on the basis of Hawke's argument of putting down a rebellion that doesn't even exist when it's the action of one man who isn't even a member of the Kirkwall Circle, unless Hawke has also lost his mind and isn't aware of Anders' confession about destroying the Chantry.

He's not flipping desks or going catatonic, but he's clearly not in a clear state of mind. He's in an extreme depressive downswing, which I am sure anyone with depression or bipolar disorder (which Hepler has cited as her prime influence for Anders's "condition") can attest to being a bad state to make decisions in.

[KnightofPhoenix]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
Sometimes "sanity" is just a way of explaining why something can't be done, shouldn't be done, why it's better to wait and see, why it's someone else's problem, why it's always been this way. Sometimes it takes a crazy person to open the door that is clearly labeled "do not enter," or to eat the Wolf Peach... fruit of the deadly nightshade. Sometimes the people qualified to run a revolution are too sane to start one.

It doesn't take an lunatic to open a dangerous door, knowing what will happen and planning for it.

Yes, the distance between insanity and genius is measured by success. One of the measures of success is the capability of rational thought and planning. Anders has neither.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 08 juin 2011 - 05:30 .

[Ryzaki]

Sialater wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Sialater wrote...

*sigh* Seems I need to find that detailed character analysis of Why Anders Would Side With the Templars again.

 

 

Poor Sia. 

I'm tempted to write my own...but walls of text aren't my thing. 

I'm NOT rewriting it.  I'm hunting for it on that thread.  But really... the writer wrote it, therefore it's in character.  It's up to us to explain it to ourselves.

 

True. I stole bits of your explanation to make into my own. 

[ipgd]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I really dont' see how Anders is remotely similar to this. Jesus or Judas were not planning for a war or a revolution. Unless you want to tell me that Anders was planning to create a religion centered around himself.

He does compare himself to Andraste and explicitly state he intends to inspire future generations through his martyrdom, so it's not that foregone of a conclusion

[Ryzaki]

ipgd wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Anders is coherent enough to speak, walk, and fight tactically. Saying he's "nuts" and isn't really cognitive of what he's doing would mean he shouldn't even be fighting alongside Hawke if you think he's so mentally unbalanced. Anders feels guilty over his loss to Justice, but I still don't think it makes sense for him to side with the templars on the basis of Hawke's argument of putting down a rebellion that doesn't even exist when it's the action of one man who isn't even a member of the Kirkwall Circle, unless Hawke has also lost his mind and isn't aware of Anders' confession about destroying the Chantry.

He's not flipping desks or going catatonic, but he's clearly not in a clear state of mind. He's in an extreme depressive downswing, which I am sure anyone with depression or bipolar disorder (which Hepler has cited as her prime influence for Anders's "condition") can attest to being a bad state to make decisions in.

 

The maniac she described him on the friendship path isn't a much better state to make decisions in either .