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The Anders Thread: Flash Fic Contest! Details on Pg. 2274


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#43126
KnightofPhoenix

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ipgd wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I really dont' see how Anders is remotely similar to this. Jesus or Judas were not planning for a war or a revolution. Unless you want to tell me that Anders was planning to create a religion centered around himself.

He does compare himself to Andraste and explicitly state he intends to inspire future generations through his martyrdom, so it's not that foregone of a conclusion :o


I do remember that and that's the point where I thought he was "coucou" in the head.
It's one thing to believe that the Maker communicates with you (could be true, could be false). It's another to think you are special while knowing that you have an insane spirit that is going insane and trying to control you.

And Andraste was a leader. Anders is not.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 08 juin 2011 - 05:37 .


#43127
Heidenreich

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You guys are distracting me from writing.. I've got 6 pages of text open in word, waiting for me to finish so I can publish the next installment of my utterly horrible tabris/zevran/alistair threesom love triangle of doom..

and now I can't finish because my mind is on ANDERS, and I'm already using my CE playthrough as an excuse to not update my Angel/Fenris snippit-fic.

Maybe I should just give in and write an Anders fic. I hate you all. and by hate you all, I mean I love you all from the bottem of my little fangirl heart for being awesome enough to debate and distract me.

...

Insane is a perfect excuse for having no plan beyond the initial attack. The man's flailing desperately for -something- to happen, and eventually has decided, or rather JUSTICE/VENGENCE has decided. His inevitable death as JUSTICE was egged on by Isabela's banter, even.. his plan is to set SOMETHING in motion, and then die for it. Justice committed, and justice received.

#43128
CulturalGeekGirl

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
Sometimes "sanity" is just a way of explaining why something can't be done, shouldn't be done, why it's better to wait and see, why it's someone else's problem, why it's always been this way. Sometimes it takes a crazy person to open the door that is clearly labeled "do not enter," or to eat the Wolf Peach... fruit of the deadly nightshade. Sometimes the people qualified to run a revolution are too sane to start one.


It doesn't take an lunatic to open a dangerous door, knowing what will happen and planning for it.

Yes, the distance between insanity and genius is measured by success. One of the measures of success is the capability of rational thought and planning. Anders has neither.


That's not a measure of success... it's a determinant of the probability of success. Big difference. The only measure of success that counts is whether or not your goals are achieved.

I'm not saying that it takes a lunatic to open a dangerous door. I'm saying that a wildcard, something utterly unpredictable, something crazy can often be the trigger that causes others to act. I think of Anders like a force of nature. He pretty much literally is, at this point, a force outside of humanity's control. It's almost as if an incarnation of Justice cast a meteor down from the sky, screaming "enough of this crap!" Only instead of justice it's justice-y vengeance, and instead of a meteor from the sky it's a bomb from the earth. Same difference though. Nature/the gods/the spirits have intervened, now it's time for sane men to put things back together.

I have a longer response to your last post in the hopper... back to work on that.

#43129
ipgd

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Ryzaki wrote...
The maniac she described him on the friendship path isn't a much better state to make decisions in either .:whistle:

I didn't say it was, lol. You know I think Anderps is always a nutter, just a different kind of nutter on the rival path.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

It's one thing to believe that the Maker communicates with you (could be true, could be false). It's another to think you are special while knowing that you have an insane spirit that is going insane and trying to control you.

Granted, we don't really know anything about what Andraste was really like; the stories could be wildly different from the reality. It wouldn't be that surprising if "insane spirit trying to control him" turned into "HE WAS THE VESSEL OF THE MAKER RETURNED TO THEDAS TO RIGHT THE WRONGS OF THE WORLD BLESSED BE OUR HOLY SAVIOR".

Anders could end up starting the Christianity to Andraste's Judaism, hilariously.

#43130
KnightofPhoenix

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CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
That's not a measure of success... it's a determinant of the probability of success. Big difference. The only measure of success that counts is whether or not your goals are achieved.


And that doesn't happen without at least some rational thought and planning. Unless via miracle.

I'm not saying that it takes a lunatic to open a dangerous door. I'm saying that a wildcard, something utterly unpredictable, something crazy can often be the trigger that causes others to act. I think of Anders like a force of nature. He pretty much literally is, at this point, a force outside of humanity's control. It's almost as if an incarnation of Justice cast a meteor down from the sky, screaming "enough of this crap!" Only instead of justice it's justice-y vengeance, and instead of a meteor from the sky it's a bomb from the earth. Same difference though. Nature/the gods/the spirits have intervened, now it's time for sane men to put things back together.


While nice, that for me is merely embellishing a madman and making him more important than he is. I might as well say taht the Joker is also a force of nature who is here to show us how fickle humans are. He certainly sees himself as such (and to an extent he is right). Doesn't make him any less insane (but he is more awesome). The difference however is that the Joekr doesn't claim to speak for anyone except himself. In that sense, I actually respect him more. 

Regardless of what he is, he had no real plan and was reckless. That was my point. Whether you think that makes him special or not is up to you.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 08 juin 2011 - 05:48 .


#43131
KnightofPhoenix

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ipgd wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

It's one thing to believe that the Maker communicates with you (could be true, could be false). It's another to think you are special while knowing that you have an insane spirit that is going insane and trying to control you.

Granted, we don't really know anything about what Andraste was really like; the stories could be wildly different from the reality. It wouldn't be that surprising if "insane spirit trying to control him" turned into "HE WAS THE VESSEL OF THE MAKER RETURNED TO THEDAS TO RIGHT THE WRONGS OF THE WORLD BLESSED BE OUR HOLY SAVIOR".

Anders could end up starting the Christianity to Andraste's Judaism, hilariously.


That would be extremily ironic and imo, completely undeserving.

If there is such a cult in the future of DA, I hope we can wipe them out.

#43132
Ryzaki

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ipgd wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
The maniac she described him on the friendship path isn't a much better state to make decisions in either .:whistle:

I didn't say it was, lol. You know I think Anderps is always a nutter, just a different kind of nutter on the rival path.

:lol:

Modifié par Ryzaki, 08 juin 2011 - 05:48 .


#43133
ipgd

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

That would be extremily ironic and imo, completely undeserving.

If there is such a cult in the future of DA, I hope we can wipe them out.

Personally, I'd think it'd be interesting to see exactly how the mythologization of a martyr/religious figure happens, having seen the real man behind it firsthand.

Also, it would be boundlessly entertaining.

#43134
cmessaz

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LOL, I must see Anders quite a bit different than most, which I suppose is fine. I feel he's conflicted, yes. And may not be...in the best position to make decisions. But I believe what he did was necessary. If I thought he was completely nuts, I wouldn't romance him. I was raised by a bi-polar, although she was slightly nuttier than most bi-polars. With Anders, the mood swings are definitely there as well as the paranoia, but I just don't see him as not being rational enough to make decisions, idk. I guess everyone has their own views on things, which is great! I am never one to argue that my opinion > than anyone elses, just thought I'd throw my thoughts in. Worth every penny and all that.

#43135
Sialater

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Ryzaki wrote...

ipgd wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
The maniac she described him on the friendship path isn't a much better state to make decisions in either .:whistle:

I didn't say it was, lol. You know I think Anderps is always a nutter, just a different kind of nutter on the rival path.

:lol:


Ryz, I can't find it.

#43136
Guest_ElleMullineux_*

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SurelyForth wrote...

Seriously, I'm convinced that the Anders sides with the templar ending is pretty much foreshadowed in Shepherding Wolves. Anders is Ketojan at that point.


^^^ This so much, which explains why I balled my eyes out on my second run through when I forced freedom on Ketojan for the first time. Absolutely soul crushing. The way the rivalmance/siding with templars destroys him is the bleakest thing I've ever seen (on youtube).

And no, he doesn't intend to live beyond provoking the war, and there is enough support elsewhere for the Libertarian view to, I think, make a real go at it. He's fully away of what the costs will be, but decides it's worth it. Arrogant? - yes. Selfish? - yes. Revolutionary? - yes.

I'm curious how this development will affect the balance of power between the Imperium and the Qunari, because if the Qunari are to take their focus off of Tevninter to return to Kirkwall/Free Marches Tevinter have got a chance to focus back on the south and push forward. The Free Marches could quite feasibly be crushed between the two.

#43137
CulturalGeekGirl

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
That's not a measure of success... it's a determinant of the probability of success. Big difference. The only measure of success that counts is whether or not your goals are achieved.


And that doesn't happen without at least some rational thought and planning. Unless via miracle.

I'm not saying that it takes a lunatic to open a dangerous door. I'm saying that a wildcard, something utterly unpredictable, something crazy can often be the trigger that causes others to act. I think of Anders like a force of nature. He pretty much literally is, at this point, a force outside of humanity's control. It's almost as if an incarnation of Justice cast a meteor down from the sky, screaming "enough of this crap!" Only instead of justice it's justice-y vengeance, and instead of a meteor from the sky it's a bomb from the earth. Same difference though. Nature/the gods/the spirits have intervened, now it's time for sane men to put things back together.


While nice, that for me is merely embellishing a madman and making him more important than he is. I might as well say taht the Joker is also a force of nature who is here to show us how fickle humans are. He certainly sees himself as such (and to an extent he is right). Doesn't make him any less insane (but he is more awesome). The difference however is that the Joekr doesn't claim to speak for anyone except himself. In that sense, I actually respect him more. 

Regardless of what he is, he had no real plan and was reckless. That was my point. Whether you think that makes him special or not is up to you.


And you think that having a plan is the only thing that makes a person worthy of respect. I disagree

(Screw it. Maybe I'll get back to that other post, maybe I won't.)

Sometimes you see a chance and you take it. That may be reckless, yes, but recklessness isn't really a bad thing. It is if there's any real indication that you're screwing up some existing, feasible, non-reckless plan, then recklessness is bad.  But every single other mage freedom thing we've seen is at best completely stalled and at worst a losing proposition... there's nothing concrete that is being screwed up, in my mind.

I think this is where we fundamentally differ: You believe it would be better for the mages to slowly sink into deeper despair, exploitation, and slavery forever, never acting at all unless a situation came about where they simultaneously had a decent plan for victory that seemed likely to work and an agent capable of acting. By your philosophy, it seems that if there is not a situation where you have a fully fleshed out plan you think is likely to work, it's better to just lay down and die than to make some ridiculous last stand. It's better to miss a good chance and wait forever in vain for a better one than to take a chance when you do not have everything planned out ahead.

I believe that rolling the dice is better than folding over and over again, losing your blind until you walk away from the table (yes, that metaphor is woefully mixed, but I like it.)

I think Anders is special not because of his actions, but because of what he is... a spirit of justice, an avenging angel, the cause of mages made mortal, whatever you want to label it. He is a new kind of creature, not just a man, and for me that is important. Evaluating him in the way you evaluate normal humans seems inapplicable.

TL:DR

You seem to believe that it's better to never act unless you have a clear plan for victory. However, you also believe that it's almost certain that a better time to act will come for mages soon, and if it doesn't they should just be content with their lot forever.

I believe that it's better to act if you think it might have a chance of helping, even if you have no clear plan for victory. I don't believe that a better time to act will come any time soon, and I also don't believe that the mages should be content with their lot.

And yes, a lot of this post is based on inferences I've drawn from your previous posts. If I've miscategorized your views at all, please correct me.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 08 juin 2011 - 06:13 .


#43138
KnightofPhoenix

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cmessaz wrote...
If I thought he was completely nuts, I wouldn't romance him.


Anders in Act 1 is quite different from Anders in Act 3. He may not have been completely nuts back then, but by Act 3, I think it's pretty clear he is either nuts or not himself.

#43139
Ryzaki

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Sialater wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

ipgd wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
The maniac she described him on the friendship path isn't a much better state to make decisions in either .:whistle:

I didn't say it was, lol. You know I think Anderps is always a nutter, just a different kind of nutter on the rival path.

:lol:


Ryz, I can't find it.

 

Here

Now say you love me. :kissing: 

Edit: And I just ralized I got the Sunder negative critical chance bug. FUUUU STUPID WARRIOR NERFS! *rages* THEY SHOULD'VE LEFT THEM THE HELL ALONE! 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 08 juin 2011 - 06:18 .


#43140
Sialater

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Ryzaki wrote...

Sialater wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

ipgd wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
The maniac she described him on the friendship path isn't a much better state to make decisions in either .:whistle:

I didn't say it was, lol. You know I think Anderps is always a nutter, just a different kind of nutter on the rival path.

:lol:


Ryz, I can't find it.

 

Here

Now say you love me. :kissing: 

Edit: And I just ralized I got the Sunder negative critical chance bug. FUUUU STUPID WARRIOR NERFS! *rages* THEY SHOULD'VE LEFT THEM THE HELL ALONE! 


I adore you.  Gotta edit it since I have new stuff.  Brb.

#43141
ipgd

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cmessaz wrote...

If I thought he was completely nuts, I wouldn't romance him.

Sane people are boring.

#43142
Sialater

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Why Siding With The Templars is Perfectly Within Character –
By Sia

By the time the Rivalrymance ending rolls around, Anders is broken.

Hawke has spent the past 6 years telling him that the defining moment in his life, when he helped his friend with the best of intentions, doomed them both to the worst kind of existence. Neither Anders nor Justice ever even dreamed this would happen. They went into this symbiotic relationship, each thinking that they'd be different. The worst couldn't possibly happen to them.

They were wrong.

Anders' unresolved anger, apparent even in Awakening, is there, simmering under the surface. A year in solitary, pre-Awakening, didn't help. Neither did Anders apparent transfer within the Grey Wardens away from the protection of OUR Warden, and back under a Templar's thumb. Slowly, Justice started to become infected with  Anders' anger to the point where he slaughtered his brothers in arms.

THIS is Anders' first wake-up call that **** ain't right.

He leaves for Kirkwall to either hide or track down Karl or both. And ends up getting angrier when he realizes his old friend and lover is bait in a trap for him, and only by the grace of the Maker and Hawke that he wasn't trapped in it. This is the second time he loses control to Justice.

The third time is Ella, the little mage girl caught by that monster Alrik. She calls Justice a demon and the spirit almost Assumes Direct Control and kills her in a rage at being called that which he hates.  Anders is losing it and is aware of this.

He dials back for a while, whether because he's content with Hawke, or she really is the distraction Justice claims, or he’s simply that shaken by his almost loss of control with Ella, is unclear since we're not in Anders' head and we're not given a lot to go on. But Justice is quiet for a time. Probably because nearly killing/or killing that mage scared the hell out of Anders and he manages to wrest semi-permanent control back away.

Hawke, on the Rivalrymance path, spends almost every moment in game that they're together underscoring how wrong he was.  (Unfortunately, you can't do this without bashing mages in general which is stupid.) This judgment by Hawke starts wearing him down and he begins to question everything. This is the point where Hawke starts breaking him.

The Rivalrymance is brutal. There is no sugarcoating it, you're calling out theperson you love (as Hawke) on his **** in the most blunt fashion possible. Sometimes, you're downright cruel. Does he deserve this? I don't know. Depends on your view of abominations.

Anders loves Hawke. Any gender, any morality, he loves Hawke. The Rivalrymance may be tough love, but it's borderline abusive. By the time he emotionally blackmails Hawke into helping (or not), he's ready to die. He's not suicidal, but he's convinced he's no longer deserving of life and the only way to separate and free himself and Justice is to die. Blowing up the Chantry is Justice for the mages because it forces them to fight. They can no longer be passive. As Justice says in Awakening, "Why don't you strike a blow against your oppressors and ensure they cannot do this to anyone else?" If the mages rise up, they can't be unilaterally oppressed any more. (Not my logic -- hell it's not even Anders' logic, this is Justice, remember?) Once at max Rivalry, Anders tries to undo the bomb, but Justice, now corrupted entirely into Vengeance, takes over and prevents him from doing anything. Couple this with the mage underground imploding due to Grace's stupidity and you have an incredibly desperate man and corrupted spirit.

The Chantry goes boom.

Now, the hard part. Anders, by now, is a broken man. He's clearly lost control of Justice/Vengeance, not once, but four separate times, if not more. After all, he's been having blackouts with Justice/Vengeance doing Maker knows what while he's out. He knows he cannot be trusted. He no longer even trusts himself. And Hawke, the one rock he's come to depend on, the one constant in his personal hell, hasn't killed him. In fact, Hawke offers him a chance at redemption, a chance to try to make up for the ultimate crime of becoming an Abomination. Restore order to the Circle. Annul the blood mages (whom he doesn't agree with anyway). Try to save the City from splintering into lawlessness. His will is gone. All he has left is Hawke. He doesn't even have himself and he certainly doesn’t have the spirit who was his friend.

Do I agree that this is the best path for him? No. But I do think it's within character.  I haven't even gone into how his possible bi-polarity effects this either.  That's a different Wall O' Text.

Modifié par Sialater, 08 juin 2011 - 06:31 .


#43143
KnightofPhoenix

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CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
And you think that having a plan is the only thing that makes a person worthy of respect. I disagree



When said person wants to bring in change and involve many people in what will be a costly war, yes. I only respect those who are qualified to make such a decision.

Sometimes you see a chance and you take it. That may be reckless, yes, but recklessness isn't really a bad thing.



There was an even better chance. Rally up the people and nobles to side with mages.
I don't see any intrinsic value in taking a chance whenever it presents itself, without really knowing what you're doing.

You believe it would be better for the mages to slowly sink into deeper despair, exploitation, and slavery forever, never acting at all unless a situation came about where they simultaneously had a decent plan for victory that seemed likely to work and an agent capable of acting. By your philosophy, it seems that if there is not a situation where you have a fully fleshed out plan you think is likely to work, it's better to just lay down and die than to make some ridiculous last stand. It's better to miss a good chance and wait forever in vain for a better one than to take a chance when you do not have everything planned out ahead.


Not at all no. I believe mages should first and foremost associate their agenda with something else, instead of think it can work as a seperate agenda. And like I said in the post I quoted from the other thread, the world is already changing and the Chantry is already declining. If the mages want to have a better future, they should associate themselves with the new rising order. And that will require action. By establishing connections, persuading, organizing and planning. Might not be as bombasitc as blowing up buildings, but certainly more efficient.

And where did you get the idea that all mages are going to die? It's only in Anders paranoia, that he sees this. Perhaps those in Kirkwall were all going to die, but mages elsewhere were not. And now, he may as well just signed their death sentence, because the madman doesn't have patience. And if Anders wanted to make a last stand, he should have gone to the gallows and suicide by Templars, rather than do what he did.

And Anders missed the good chance, that's the point. He took the bad one.

I think Anders is special not because of his actions, but because of what he is... a spirit of justice, an avenging angel, the cause of mages made mortal, whatever you want to label it. He is a new kind of creature, not just a man, and for me that is important. Evaluating him in the way you evaluate normal humans seems inapplicable.


If he is supposed to represent the cause of mages, then he represents mage paranoia, vulnerability, weak will, impatience, recklessness, narrow-mindedness, obsession, being suidical, polarization, apathy to non-mages...etc etc.

Not exactly inspiring.

You seem to believe that it's better to never act unless you have a clear plan for victory. However, you also believe that it's almost certain that a better time to act will come for mages soon, and if it doesn't they should just be content with their lot forever.


Nothing lasts forever. What mages should do is work to influence the shift of the status quo to their favor by aligning themselves with rising factions. There is never a guaranteed path to victory. But there's a difference between going blind and going with some plan and idea in your head as well as accumulating advantages and allies (instead of alienating them). 

And do not confuse mages with Anders. I said Anders should never act on anything because he's insane.
Mages can and should act. Subtly and with prudence.

I believe that it's better to act if you think it might have a chance of helping, even if you have no clear plan for victory. I don't believe that a better time to act will come any time soon, and I also don't believe that the mages should be content with their lot.


And how would you plan to win the war exactly? And what kind of society would you want? What institutions would you build? How would you make people accept it? How would you prevent mages from going insane or out of control?  How do you plan to deal with a Qunari invasion?...etc etc.

I care about these kind of questions. Not what I see as eloquently put but ultimately empty rethoric, with all due respect.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 08 juin 2011 - 06:30 .


#43144
cmessaz

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

cmessaz wrote...
If I thought he was completely nuts, I wouldn't romance him.


Anders in Act 1 is quite different from Anders in Act 3. He may not have been completely nuts back then, but by Act 3, I think it's pretty clear he is either nuts or not himself.

I agree with him not being himself in Act 3, but I still don't see him as nuts. Thats my opinion of course.

ipgd wrote...

cmessaz wrote...

If I thought he was completely nuts, I wouldn't romance him.

Sane people are boring.

LOL, this is true. But after being raised by a nut, I guess my idea of someone being "nuts" is probably different than most people's :P Anders is...special ?



@sialater...that was excellent.

Modifié par cmessaz, 08 juin 2011 - 06:33 .


#43145
upsettingshorts

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I'm not sure I can accept an interpretation of Anders' character where he isn't insane.

Also, this.

#43146
BlueMew

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

cmessaz wrote...
If I thought he was completely nuts, I wouldn't romance him.


Anders in Act 1 is quite different from Anders in Act 3. He may not have been completely nuts back then, but by Act 3, I think it's pretty clear he is either nuts or not himself.

Well... yes and no. My vision on him at that point is that neither Justice nor Anders nor Vengeance is in control 100% of the time. He's a composite creature, and the way he talks after blowing up the Chantry gives so many mixed messages that my bet on who's in control is "everything at once and therefore no one".

Not very sane, I'll give you that. Still, I've no compulsion to kill him, even if I understand people who do (not the sick puppies with their elaborate torture plans, mind you).

And how would you plan to win the war exactly? And what kind of society would you want? What institutions would you build? How would you make people accept it? How would you prevent mages from going insane or out of control?  How do you plan to deal with a Qunari invasion?...etc etc.

Oh, I wish we had a Vetinari. "Bought and sold but not needlessly spent". Unfortunately, I fear (Note that this is not the same as 'I am 100% convinced') that in DA, much as often in the real world, we don't have one at hand. So if you want change, especially in a religion-dominated conflict, usually you end up to your ankles in blood. 

Btw, about the Andraste comparison? I always took it just meant that if you want change, you need to go to war like she did. Not the whole prophet BRide of the Maker thing. 

#43147
Sialater

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cmessaz wrote...

@sialater...that was excellent.


Thank you.

#43148
KnightofPhoenix

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BlueMew wrote...

And how would you plan to win the war exactly? And what kind of society would you want? What institutions would you build? How would you make people accept it? How would you prevent mages from going insane or out of control?  How do you plan to deal with a Qunari invasion?...etc etc.

Oh, I wish we had a Vetinari. "Bought and sold but not needlessly spent". Unfortunately, I fear (Note that this is not the same as 'I am 100% convinced') that in DA, much as often in the real world, we don't have one at hand. So if you want change, especially in a religion-dominated conflict, usually you end up to your ankles in blood. 


Blood is not the issue for me. It's rather going blindly to a war.

We had a lot of visionaries in our history, why can't DA have one?
And if Thedas does not have one and / or does not have the proper context, then patience is the way to go. Not I dont' know what kind of entity that is no sane doing such an act. 

#43149
Ryzaki

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Sialater wrote...
I adore you.  Gotta edit it since I have new stuff.  Brb.


:wub: 

Still disagree on the borderline abusive bit too. :whistle:

#43150
BlueMew

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KnightofPhoenix wrote...
And if Thedas does not have one and / or does not have the proper context, then patience is the way to go. Not I dont' know what kind of entity that is no sane doing such an act. 

Uh. I'm not sure if I understood that last bit. But in Anders' shoes, I might have taken the same leap (i.e. merging with Justice and end up like that). Not because I'm nuts (or am I? Let's practice the MUAHAHAHA!)  but because I'm human and not as cool-headed as I'd like to be. If you treat people, especially with potentially dangerous powers, like monsters, sooner or later they're going to behave like wounded monsters in an act of desperation.

Modifié par BlueMew, 08 juin 2011 - 06:51 .