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[ipgd]

rayemoon wrote...

I can only speak with certainty for myself, but the people here are smart, so I can't imagine that others, like me, are feeling like "we get it already, give it a rest," and perhaps also "why are you here is you dislike Anders so much?"

People who don't like Anderps can post here, too. He hasn't done anything wrong, and I would be highly disappoint if we turn into one of those threads that shoos off anyone who isn't here to circlejerk over ideas we've all already agreed upon.

[Ryzaki]

Edit: Ahnevermind. 

@SurelyForth: The circles rebelling isn't to me enough towards mage freedom for Anders to want to end it. I do have an inflated sense of his strength of will though. I dislike weak willed characters. Anders hasn't stopped the war yet ("let's end this war before it even begins.") so I can see Hawke keeping him alive long enough to see it come to an end. I don't see it as "torture" though. He merged with Justice who created the mess. He needs to fix it. He could've told Hawke there was a bomb in the Chantry. He didn't. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 08 juin 2011 - 08:11 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
People keep saying this "turn popular opinion" "rally up the people." That's what mages have been trying to do for thousands of years, and what Anders has already been trying to do for six years. When mages aren't allowed to walk free and talk with people, that popular opinion shebang isn't going to happen. It might happen in one city, but it isn't going to happen Thedas-wide, and if it happens in just one city, or just one country, at one point, the Chantry is going to Exalted March their ass or Orlais is going to invade, and it'll be crushed. It's a known political fact that opinions on a minority change the more contact the average citizen has with that minority. With the Chantry becoming ever-more-restrictive, there's no real chance for the public to be rallied. Believing there is seems painfully naive.

How did mages do it for thousands of years? Where did you get this?

The situation was ripe in Kirkwall like no where else (and its geo-political and commercial importance doens't make it as isolated as you seem to suggest). And Orlais or the Chantry invading is counter-productive and that could have been a much more powerful symbol needed to weaken the Chantry. Because it doesn't only involve mages. It involves a sovereign popular state being aggressed for no reason.

And part of being rational, is having realistic expectations and objectives. Thinking that you can change Thedas in one swift stroke, is what's painfully naive.

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
All the things you suggest "mages" do are impossible, because "mages" aren't allowed to associate or organize in any significant way. The only way to get mages to the point where they CAN do that kind of thing is to cause the leaders of the circles to simultaneously see common cause and free themselves from the Templars to the extent that they are now allowed to communicate, both with each other and the outside world.

They can, it's called Fraternities. And they can have secrecy within those fraternities. Uldred pretty much oranized a rebellion without anyone noticing with the help of Loghain, and would have been able to make the entire Circle secede and join the Crown were it not for Wynne. Not the example I have in mind exactly (less demons), but something similar. That pretty much refutes your argument that mages can't possibly organize and get in touch with political strongmen. So I won't answer similar points you've made in your post.

It is possible. If the Chantry can't manage to control its most militarized Circle, it won't have that much luck elsewhere. And they can send messengers, they don't have to be mages. Merchants can do the trick.

Right now there are, at maximum, four free mages we know of who are openly free and have any access to political power in Kirkwall/Ferelden/Orlais (not counting Flemeth, and outside of Tevinter).

They don't have to have political power. They need to get in touch with the ones who do.

 The only way the mages can do any of the things you suggest is to make the heads of the individual circles, the most sane and moderate of all mages, realize they need to act; while also simultaneously giving them a means to co-ordinate with each other by causing them to rise up against the Chantry.

Actually, I wouldn't bet that much on Enchanters. They don't get to rise through the ranks by being anti-Chantry.
What needs to be done is a group of mages to get in contact with political strongmen and get deals. Loyalty in exchange for new rights.

And I never said all the Circles in Thedas can simultaneously coordinate, that's an empty dream.
It's only the vital Circles, in key countries (like Ferelden and Nevarra), that should have a semblance of coordination, in the sense they shoudl get in touch with the local authorites. This would also be part of a Nevarran-Ferelden alliance that I think is very likely to happen to counter-balance Orlais. Mages could suggest such an alliance. 

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
I care about all these questions too, but I think that Anders expects that the leaders of the mages will organize enough to answer them, given the chance. Someone had an excellent post about the different coalitions of mages... there are the Resolutionists, who suck and can't be trusted, the Libertarians who are too disorganized to really gain any useful political allies, the Aequitarians who believe that mages should be governed by some rules, and the Loyalists who do not question the Chantry in any way. The party who needs to be goaded into action are the Aequitarians, the dominant party in the Circle. This is about taking the reins of mage revolutionary freedom away from the Resolutionists and forcing the Aequitarians to ally themselves with the Libertarians rather than the Loyalists.

Yes, and all this does not require what Anders did and I highly doubt he was thinking about all this to begin with.
In Awakening, he was pretty much opposed to all fraternities. He didn't mention one in DA2.

The hope is that, at the end of all this, the result will be something moderate, a compromise between the views of the Aequitarians and the Libertarians, a more independent circle with a cooperative relationship with the Chantry and the Templars.

That is not likely to happen at all, because it assumes that the Chantry will accept the mages holding political power (or economic and military power), enough to equalize the relationship. why would the Chantry accept it?

The only way this could be achieved is if the state comes in and imposes its power in the equation to moderate the relationship. Cooperation can only happen between quals and mages cannot become equals to the Chantry on their own. The mages need allies and that's what Anders didnt' understand.

Anders used to be an Aequitarian himself (in Awakenings he calls the Libertarians crazy)

That doens't make him Aequitarian. Aequitarians don't run away from the Circle. He wasnt' with any fraternity, and only agreed with the Aequitarians on the issue of secession.

[Sialater]

rayemoon wrote...

Sialater wrote...

*sigh* Seems I need to find that detailed character analysis of Why Anders Would Side With the Templars again.

...(snip for lengthy and awesome character analysis)...

Before I read your analysis, I was thinking to myself, "You know, I don't really see it as Anders siding with the Templars so much as I see it as Anders siding with Hawke..."

And then you seem to have said that in your analysis.

Great minds think alike?

Thanks for writing it all out!  Especially with the details of the story, I think it makes it very clear and understandable.  Especially with the "and then Hawke doesn't kill" him part in italics.  That really helped make clear how important that was (and not just because Anders is still alive to consider things further!) in allowing Anders to consider that maybe he's been misguided all along in his merciless understanding and application of "justice," as well as other things.

Thank you.  I'll probably trot this out whever we have this arguement again.

[KnightofPhoenix]

rayemoon wrote...
Can you quote/cite that codex, please?  I read all the ones regarding Anders, but saw nothing saying that.

I uninstalled the game. It's in the Anders' codex that gets updated once every Act is finished I believe. Anders, at least on freindship, was clearly losing it.

Re: Judas:  Really?  You can't see how Anders is like Judas in doing the thing that is considered horrific and monstrous but (at least some think) needs to be done?

No, because Judas complimented Jesus. Anders lacked the Jesus to his supposed Judas.

Re: "Anders should be content:"  That is your opinion.  Opinions aside, however, I think the game makes it pretty clear that he CAN'T be content.  And real life is not without a basis for that.  How many people have killed themselves (or others) because they CANNOT deal with the world the way it is?  (The recent rash of young queer people who have committed suicide springs immediately to my mind.)  I'm not going to argue about the morality of this, just saying that, as a character, Anders is very real and believable.

Never argued he isn't real and believable.
But if it were up to me, I would have delt with him a long time ago (or manipulated him). He's a dangerous walking time bomb.

I guess a miracle is what Anders got, then, because in the epilogue conversation between Cassandra and Varric, it is explicitly stated that they (the Chantry) has lost all the Circles, and that the Templars have rebelled, too.

I mean, you keep stating that you don't respect Anders because he has no plan for war and victory (see below as well), but the war seems to have succeeded despite your lack of respect.

We don't know what Varric means by Templars rebelling. They might have rebelled to strike hard at the mages and not to side with them. In fact, in a templar ending, Varric says that's the case. That they rebelled to hunt mages.

Furthermore, even if the war is won, I am going to give credit solely to thsoe who were brave enough to fight, think and plan. I will not give an ounce of credit to the man who recklessly started it with no real plan in mind.

Re: "mages should associate their agenda with something else:"  Their agenda is being treated as human-****ing-beings.  If that agenda can't stand on it's own, there is truly a problem with the world of Thedas, and maybe Thedas needs to be made to see that.

Regardless of how you view Thedas, this is how it is.
Nobles, merchants, common people, are not going to care unless they are given incentives to care and mages being treated like **** is something they tolerated for thousands of years, so it not incentive enough.

ETA: And where are you getting your evidence that the Chantry is declining?

The mage conference almost voting on secession. The Chantry implictly agreeing to Templars taking over political power (never happened before), and then failing miserably to maintain control. The people of Kirkwall siding with mages. Templars rebelling against a KC. The Divine going as far as to consider an Exalted march on an Andrastrian country. Celene's educational reforms that are angering the Chantry. Orlais declining in front of Nevarra...etc etc.

All signs of decline.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 08 juin 2011 - 08:02 .

[Jean]

ipgd wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
The maniac she described him on the friendship path isn't a much better state to make decisions in either .

I didn't say it was, lol. You know I think Anderps is always a nutter, just a different kind of nutter on the rival path.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

It's one thing to believe that the Maker communicates with you (could be true, could be false). It's another to think you are special while knowing that you have an insane spirit that is going insane and trying to control you.

Granted, we don't really know anything about what Andraste was really like; the stories could be wildly different from the reality. It wouldn't be that surprising if "insane spirit trying to control him" turned into "HE WAS THE VESSEL OF THE MAKER RETURNED TO THEDAS TO RIGHT THE WRONGS OF THE WORLD BLESSED BE OUR HOLY SAVIOR".

Anders could end up starting the Christianity to Andraste's Judaism, hilariously.

silly you know anders is really one of andraste's descendants

the irony

[KnightofPhoenix]

I really didn't intend on sounding offensive or condescending. I greatly respect CultralGeekGirl, despite our differences.

I am sorry, I truly did not mean to.

[Patchwork]

IMO a quick death is the kindest thing you can do for Anders. If mages aren't rising up, reacting as quickly as Justice would like then he going to take action again. Anders killed who knows how many innocent people not just in the Chantry itself but in the surrounding area. Even if there was a way to separate him from Justice he still carrying around this huge crushing guilt that will destroy him further.

He's both dangerous and broken. You end the threat of him, the pain he's in or you force him to live with his actions and hope he never sees it as a necessary measure again.

But as I said just my take on it, other people's mileage frequently varies.

[Patriciachr34]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

BlueMew wrote...

And how would you plan to win the war exactly? And what kind of society would you want? What institutions would you build? How would you make people accept it? How would you prevent mages from going insane or out of control?  How do you plan to deal with a Qunari invasion?...etc etc.

Oh, I wish we had a Vetinari. "Bought and sold but not needlessly spent". Unfortunately, I fear (Note that this is not the same as 'I am 100% convinced') that in DA, much as often in the real world, we don't have one at hand. So if you want change, especially in a religion-dominated conflict, usually you end up to your ankles in blood. 

Blood is not the issue for me. It's rather going blindly to a war.

We had a lot of visionaries in our history, why can't DA have one?
And if Thedas does not have one and / or does not have the proper context, then patience is the way to go. Not I dont' know what kind of entity that is no sane doing such an act. 

@ KOP... back to disagreeing with you.  This isn't a war that was planned (like the build up to WWII).  This is more like the snowball thrown at a British soilder that started the American revolutionary war.  It took one violent reaction to an ongoing oppression (whether percieved or real) to bring a splintered population together.  The American forefathers were visionary not becasue they planned the rebellion, but because they took the opportunity to organize the rabble.  Anders was simply the snowball.  Now we need mage visionaries to bring this together.  Maybe that is DA3.

[Ryzaki]

Queen-Of-Stuff wrote...

... Time for a group hug?

Here I was all happy and thought someone was gonna suggest an orgy.  

Ser Bard wrote...

IMO a quick death is the kindest thing you can do for Anders. If mages aren't rising up, reacting as quickly as Justice would like then he going to take action again. Anders killed who knows how many innocent people not just in the Chantry itself but in the surrounding area. Even if there was a way to separate him from Justice he still carrying around this huge crushing guilt that will destroy him further.

He's both dangerous and broken. You end the threat of him, the pain he's in or you force him to live with his actions and hope he never sees it as a necessary measure again.

But as I said just my take on it, other people's mileage frequently varies.

 

Ah I agree that death is the kindest thing you can do for Anders. 

I just like to drag my favcharcters through hell. Earn Your Happy Ending to the fullest. (except instead of happy it's more like earn your ending that doesn't completely suck.  

Modifié par Ryzaki, 08 juin 2011 - 08:16 .

[Hill-Hurwitz]

*hugs everyone, since she missed the Great Debate*

[KnightofPhoenix]

Patriciachr34 wrote...
@ KOP... back to disagreeing with you.  This isn't a war that was planned (like the build up to WWII).  This is more like the snowball thrown at a British soilder that started the American revolutionary war.  It took one violent reaction to an ongoing oppression (whether percieved or real) to bring a splintered population together.  The American forefathers were visionary not becasue they planned the rebellion, but because they took the opportunity to organize the rabble.  Anders was simply the snowball.  Now we need mage visionaries to bring this together.  Maybe that is DA3.

I am not dismissing the possibily that some mages could take up the rabble and make something out of what Anders did (though this is something he couldn't have foreseen without taking a huge leap of faith).

But I will give these people credit. Not him. And it's the former I will respect, and not the latter, especially considering his mental condition (that said, I sympathize).

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 08 juin 2011 - 08:18 .

[SurelyForth]

The Anders Thread is More Fun: Everybody's ****ing Everybody

[Jean]

I think the templars rebelling means all the rebellings possible. Rebelling the chantry to kill the mages, rebelling against the chantry and the order to help the mages or just leaving entirely

i mean whether or not mages will actually accept templar help at this point I have no idea

Modifié par Batteries, 08 juin 2011 - 08:22 .

[cmessaz]

Anders Act 3

[Ryzaki]

...Is there a console cheat to change a warrior into a rogue? That sunder bug...ugh. I really don't want to start my playthrough over.

[KnightofPhoenix]

rayemoon wrote...
As for the signs of decline, I don't remember a lot of that, or I interpret it differently, I guess.  I don't know what you mean by "The Chantry implictly agreeing to Templars taking over political power (never happened before), and then failing miserably to maintain control."

The Templars taking over political power like what happened in Kirkwall never happened before. And it was the result of Kirkwall's government being sick of hosting a foreign military order. The Chantry at least implicitly agreed to have Templars take over power, which is a dangerous precedent.
And that the yfailed to maintain control was pretty obivous from the game. Meredith kept creating enemies with her incompetence and the Chantry became so desperate, that they considered an Exalted March on an Andrastrian country.

or "The people of Kirkwall siding with mages,"

In Act 2, it's said that the people woudl rather spit on Templar faces than help Templars and that a crucial reason as to why the mage underground was so hard to crush, was because it was supported by common folk. Cullen also mentionned that one of their powerbases is popular support.

and while I seem to recall something being said about Celene, I don't remember educational reforms or Orlais declining in front of Nevarra...etc etc.

It's in the wikia.

As for the Anders codex:

If Ella was killed:
The past three years has seen Anders cross the edge from moodiness
into open paranoia. Increasingly, his inner struggle against the spirit
Vengeance has boiled over into his dealings with the rest of the world.
It's clear he is losing this fight.

If Ella lives:
After his attack on Ella, Anders lost interest in the cause of mage
revolution. Convinced that he was no better than an abomination, Anders
was determined to gain mastery over the spirit inside him... or die
trying. It is increasingly apparent that he is losing this struggle.
Prone to wild mood swings between deep melancholy and manic
determination

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 08 juin 2011 - 08:32 .

[Sialater]

Batteries wrote...

I think the templars rebelling means all the rebellings possible. Rebelling the chantry to kill the mages, rebelling against the chantry and the order to help the mages or just leaving entirely

i mean whether or not mages will actually accept templar help at this point I have no idea

I hope they would.  A mage fighting alongside a Templar S&S is damned near unstoppable.  

[Patchwork]

The alliance some of the circle mages had with the templars in Act 3 independent of the Chantry and circle was the best solution to the mage question. To bad they were all crazy.

Apart from lyrium what do templars really need the Chantry for? I'm almost as happy about a templar rebellion as I am with a mage one.

Usually I'm all for extra angst Ryzaki but Anders' situation is so sad I want to bring him some sort of peace. I even feel sorry for Justice. 

Modifié par Ser Bard, 08 juin 2011 - 08:41 .