57020 réponses à ce sujet

[beckaliz]

For the Anders playlist that was being discussed earlier (was that this morning or yesterday??), does anyone have the endtheme version of "I'm Not Calling You A Liar" by Florence and the Machine? It's different from the album version. I have it, actually, but it's the WHOLE end theme including the second song.

If anyone cares, I can split them apart and upload just the Florence part. But only if there's significant interest.

Unless someone already HAS this, in which case I'd like it. XD

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OooOOOOoo.... top post... never gotten that before. PICCA. And here are them kitties....

Modifié par beckaliz, 09 juin 2011 - 05:17 .

[Frishmet]

Regarding the issue of possible Mage/State alliances ..

I am curious about how this would work (assuming there was enough communication between the mages and key members of the State). Alliances are all about each party gaining something they didn't have before. The Circles could obviously ask for more freedoms as their part of the bargain in exchange for supporting the State. But what would the State gain from the mages that it didn't already have - something that is worth enough to make them willing to stand against the Chantry?

I suppose if the Chantry was perceived as going "too far" in getting involved in affairs of the State.. or if there were more than one political faction fighting over who will rule, a mage alliance with one of the factions would tip the scale in favor of one of them. In the case of war with another nation.. I'm not sure if the mages would be used as a weapon or if they would be even more closely guarded so as not to cause internal problems or get too "uppity" when they are able to unleash power they normally don't get to use.

Modifié par Frishmet, 09 juin 2011 - 05:19 .

[CulturalGeekGirl]

I like Anders and Fenris (in the same way that I like Garrus and Kaidan). I'm actually having a good argument about Varania over in the Fenris thread right now. It doesn't move as fast as this one, though, and people are more... openly resistant to non-Fenris-sympathetic viewpoints, so I'm a bit scared to post there sometimes.

I'm beginning to fear that neither KoP nor I will ever give up... but since I'm generally on the side of Anders and this is the Anders thread, I'm gonna keep fighting, at least for a little while. I am, however, gonna try to trim the quotem pole again, especially since I'm not allowed to bring up genre-savvyness, and that's a substantial portion of my character analysis. I think that recognizing what kind of world you're living in is a hugely important advantage to a character, and is something that real people can actually do.

@KoP
At this point it might be productive to produce a list of things upon which we disagree, which are neither provable or unprovable without the use of genre-savvyness or metagaming.

1. You see the history of unsuccessful attempts at mage+state diplomacy with their various failure states as evidence that such things are still likely the best possible tactic.

I see a history of unsuccessful attempts at mage+state diplomacy with their various failure states as evidence that such things are unlikely to succeed in the pre-revolt political climate.

2. You believe that risking thousands of lives on  a chance without having a solid plan for the results of that chance is always unforgivably irresponsible.

I believe that under some circumstances, taking a chance that risks thousands of lives is better than doing nothing.

3. You believe that setting up a situation where you rely on someone in the future to do the right thing order for everything to turn out well is cowardly.

I believe that setting up a situation that relies upon the next person who comes along to make the right decision shows great faith in the inherent goodness of human nature. It may be  naive, but it is not cowardly.

4. You believe that Justice is irrelevant outside the fade.

I believe that Justice is a relevant concept in Thedas.

5. You believe that Anders has no reason to believe in the goodness of humanity and heroes.

I believe that his encounters with Hawke cause Anders to believe in people like  Hawke, whether Hawke agrees with him or not. (On the friendship path, he believes that people like Hawke will help him. On the Rivalry path, he believes that people like Hawke know better than he does.)

Will you agree with me that all these statements are pure opinion, and cannot be proven one way or the other?

If we can agree that all these things fall under the purview of your conundrums of philosophy, it'll be easier to more specifically discuss the specific situation in Kirkwall, which I still have some thoughts on. Jumbling them up in a quotem pole about fundamental philosophical disagreements isn't helping my sanity much, so clearing this stuff up first would help.

Edit: I may work on a seperate post about the specific situation in Kirkwall you described, whether or not you respond to this one, but I think it's a good idea to branch it off from the more theoretical philosophical discussion.

Modifié par CulturalGeekGirl, 09 juin 2011 - 05:41 .

[beckaliz]

Frishmet wrote...

Regarding the issue of possible Mage/State alliances ..

I am curious about how this would work (assuming there was enough communication between the mages and key members of the State). Alliances are all about each party gaining something they didn't have before. The Circles could obviously ask for more freedoms as their part of the bargain in exchange for supporting the State. But what would the State gain from the mages that it didn't already have - something that is worth enough to make them willing to stand against the Chantry?

I suppose if the Chantry was perceived as going "too far" in getting involved in affairs of the State.. or if there were more than one political faction fighting over who will rule, a mage alliance with one of the factions would tip the scale in favor of one of them. In the case of war with another nation.. I'm not sure if the mages would be used as a weapon or if they would be even more closely guarded so as not to cause internal problems or get too "uppity" when they are able to unleash power they normally don't get to use.

Well certainly there was a growing power struggle between Meredith and the Viscount. As far as my understanding went, anyway. The Arishok killing him made the way for Meredith to step in almost unopposed. It's possible that, at some point, the Viscount might have been pushed into defying the chantry if Meredith got bad enough. But I think she'd have had to go super lyrium-idol-crazy before he'd defy the different groups he's always talking about pacifying for him to even remotely consider allying with the mages simply to get rid of her. (And I'm not even sure that that seems likely.) Seems to me that, outside of a coup, no state would, as you say, necessarily have anything to gain by an alliance with a Circle as an independent entity. And if there was a devastating war that the state was facing, they'd be more likely to do as they did at the beginning of the Blight and say, "Uh, hey, there's like, darkspawn and stuff. Can we have some of your mages to throw at them? You'll get some fresh air. Ok koolz."

[KnightofPhoenix]

CulturalGeekGirl wrote...
@KoP
At this point it might be productive to produce a list of things upon which we disagree, which are neither provable or unprovable without the use of genre-savvyness or metagaming.

1. You see the history of unsuccessful attempts at mage+state diplomacy with their various failure states as evidence that such things are still likely the best possible tactic.

I see a history of unsuccessful attempts at mage+state diplomacy with their various failure states as evidence that such things are unlikely to succeed in the pre-revolt political climate.

Except there is no history of unsuccesful attempts, because mages were never interested in doing that. Because the majority favored the system. Until recently, as per Awakening.

2. You believe that risking thousands of lives on  a chance without having a solid plan for the results of that chance is always unforgivably irresponsible.

I believe that under some circumstances, taking a chance that risks thousands of lives is better than doing nothing.

Plus having a similar mental condition as that of Anders, yes.

3. You believe that setting up a situation where you rely on someone in the future to do the right thing order for everything to turn out well is cowardly.

I believe that setting up a situation that relies upon the next person who comes along to make the right decision shows great faith in the inherent goodness of human nature. It may be stupid, but it is not cowardly.

"Inherent goodness of human nature"? 
And why didn't he possess some of this inherent goodness? Why does he expect it in others when he doesn't have it?

4. You believe that Justice is irrelevant outside the fade.

I believe that Justice is a relevant concept in Thedas.

I believe Justice's narrow conception of the idea is not relevent in the real world and he says so himself in Awakening.

5. You believe that Anders has no reason to believe in the goodness of humanity and heroes.

I believe that his encounters with Hawke cause Anders to believe in people like  Hawke, whether Hawke agrees with him or not. (On the friendship path, he believes that people like Hawke will help him. On the Rivalry path, he believes that people like Hawke know better than he does.)

I believe Anders is not prudent to base everything on the supposition that someone will do what he didn't want to do / can't do. Not when he is gambling with the lives of thousands, mages and non-mages. 

And a rival Hawke, especially one sidign wit hthe Templars, most certainly would not have approved of what he did and may approve violent crackdown of all mages everywhere.

Will you agree with me that all these statements are pure opinion, and cannot be proven one way or the other?

For the most part, yes. Just thought to clarify my position better.

If we can agree that all these things fall under the purview of your conundrums of philosophy, it'll be easier to more specifically discuss the specific situation in Kirkwall, which I still have some thoughts on. Jumbling them up in a quotem pole about fundamental philosophical disagreements isn't helping my sanity much, so clearing this stuff up first would help.

Sure, though I am going to sleep now. It's 1:40 AM. I'll be sure to check it out tomorrow.

And I must say, it's really been a pleasure. I can't remember the last time I've been in such a long debate, and me actualy enjoying it. I hope the feeling was mutual, or at the very least, that I didn't offend or annoy, because I know that sometimes I sound condescending, when I don't want to. So thanks for baring with me.

Good night!

[KnightofPhoenix]

Frishmet wrote...

But what would the State gain from the mages that it didn't already have - something that is worth enough to make them willing to stand against the Chantry?

Before I sleep. What turned the tide vs the Qunari? Magic.
It's a potent resource and weapon.

Furthermore, the Chantry controls lyrium trade and has armies within sovereign territories. I suspect that many will if not already did grow to dislike the idea. We know the previous Viscount of Kirkwall did, except he was incompetent.

[Heidenreich]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Frishmet wrote...

But what would the State gain from the mages that it didn't already have - something that is worth enough to make them willing to stand against the Chantry?

Before I sleep. What turned the tide vs the Qunari? Magic.
It's a potent resource and weapon.

Furthermore, the Chantry controls lyrium trade and has armies within sovereign territories. I suspect that many will if not already did grow to dislike the idea. We know the previous Viscount of Kirkwall did, except he was incompetent.

*cuddles KoP, because she's sleepy, and he makes lovely arguments for thought*<3

You have to remember, that the previous viscount was also assasinated by Meredith for killing HER BOSS because he was trying to kick the templars out for abusing their power within the city ;p

At the end of the day, Kirkwallians don't get a say in who makes the rules, because the person making the rules has an army of trained warriors with the ability to shut down magic with a eyelash bat

[ipgd]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

"Inherent goodness of human nature"? 
And why didn't he possess some of this inherent goodness? Why does he expect it in others when he doesn't have it?

The guy running the free clinic out of the festering asshole of Kirkwall? :innocent:

And a rival Hawke, especially one sidign wit hthe Templars, most certainly would not have approved of what he did and may approve violent crackdown of all mages everywhere.

Rivalry Anders is pretty irrelevant to any discussion about him as any sort of revolutionary, I think, since he's actively in dissonance with Justice on that path; the ideology and dogma comes from Justice, but any of his foresight and human-relevant cognizance of the consequences of such actions would come from Anders, and without him on board Janders is operating solely on the capacity for the unfiltered reactionary vengeance supplied by Justice. So Hawke's opposition to Anders in this context is a non-issue because any Anders opposed by Hawke would agree with you.

[andrastepreserveme]

ipgd wrote...
The guy running the free clinic out of the festering asshole of Kirkwall? :innocent:

Quite an angry/agitated night. I will just say that this ^^^ is something people tend to overlook about Anders. The guy you meet originally helps the lowest of the low, and asks for nothing for it. He takes Justice into himself because he wants to help. Intentions are important if we're going to start judging him personally for the outcome of his actions.

He isn't evil - I'm pretty sure a spirit healer has to be essentially good and caring of spirit for their magic to develop the way it does. Things go wrong, and he takes the wrong path, but that can happen to anyone.

[Amondra]

mandamcmoo wrote...

ipgd wrote...
The guy running the free clinic out of the festering asshole of Kirkwall? :innocent:

Quite an angry/agitated night. I will just say that this ^^^ is something people tend to overlook about Anders. The guy you meet originally helps the lowest of the low, and asks for nothing for it. He takes Justice into himself because he wants to help. Intentions are important if we're going to start judging him personally for the outcome of his actions.

He isn't evil - I'm pretty sure a spirit healer has to be essentially good and caring of spirit for their magic to develop the way it does. Things go wrong, and he takes the wrong path, but that can happen to anyone.

*hugs* I love you forever for that comment! He is a good example of  "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" type thing.  

Modifié par Amondra, 09 juin 2011 - 07:17 .

[Amondra]

ElleMullineux wrote...

I tried to find a happy Anders picture, but this one tugged at my heart strings instead.
Ugh, loving someone so intent on destroying themselves for a cause. Bioware pushed every button I have with this romance.


Pyromaniac03

Yeah it did, thats why I love it so much. Talk about testing yourself.  I love this picture too!

[andrastepreserveme]

Amondra wrote...

*hugs* I love you forever for that comment! He is a good example of  "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" type thing.  

Exactly! Anders' position/choices are meant to be difficult. He enters grey areas and that is what makes him such a challenging companion.

I think it's a real shame that people try to whitewash him one way or the other. Hepler wanted him to be mixed up and confusing, and to my mind he most certainly is.

[Evilnor]

Amondra wrote...

mandamcmoo wrote...

Quite an angry/agitated night. I will just say that this ^^^ is something people tend to overlook about Anders. The guy you meet originally helps the lowest of the low, and asks for nothing for it. He takes Justice into himself because he wants to help. Intentions are important if we're going to start judging him personally for the outcome of his actions.

He isn't evil - I'm pretty sure a spirit healer has to be essentially good and caring of spirit for their magic to develop the way it does. Things go wrong, and he takes the wrong path, but that can happen to anyone.

*hugs* I love you forever for that comment! He is a good example of  "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" type thing.  

I completely agree with the "road to hell" argument.

Being a spirit healer, though, I don't think has to be an inherrently good specialization, just as blood magic doesn't necessarily mean you're a bad person.  People (as in players) tend to view them that way, though.  All that spirit healing requires is the ability to summon spirits to aid in healing, which often requires earning the spirit's trust.  While a certain amount of compassion may be beneficial to this line of work, it doesn't mean the person has to necessarily be good to do so.  That, and considering the amount of power they're channeling to summon the benevolent spirits, they're also more prone to attract demons by accident or trickery.  http://dragonage.wik...i/Spirit_Healer

[elenilote]

mandamcmoo wrote...

Amondra wrote...

*hugs* I love you forever for that comment! He is a good example of  "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" type thing.  

Exactly! Anders' position/choices are meant to be difficult. He enters grey areas and that is what makes him such a challenging companion.

I think it's a real shame that people try to whitewash him one way or the other. Hepler wanted him to be mixed up and confusing, and to my mind he most certainly is.

I don't usually post here and when I do, it has nothing at all to do with whatever is being debated. But I will pitch in now.
I strongly oppose the view of Anders as a terrorist "cause he blew up the Chantry and killed hundreds of innocents". 
Um no. He is not a terrorist. He is a guy who wants a better world, who is running out of options because the world around him is living in fear of change and are sitting in their stagnant little pond.

Anders is inherently unselfish, he took on Justice because he wanted to help and he thought it was the Right Thing To Do. he runs a free clinic, he heals everyone and anyone without question and all people remember is the bit at the end? And even then, Anders is genuinely sorry for the loss of life he inflicted, he does not prance around with a flag shouting 'yeay, I did it!'.

And my original point, in reply to @mandamcmoo, is that Anders was written as not being a black-and-white character. In my view he makes the best romance in the game and overall the best-written character as well.

Modifié par elenilote, 09 juin 2011 - 07:59 .

[andrastepreserveme]

Evilnor wrote...

I completely agree with the "road to hell" argument.

Being a spirit healer, though, I don't think has to be an inherrently good specialization, just as blood magic doesn't necessarily mean you're a bad person.  People (as in players) tend to view them that way, though.  All that spirit healing requires is the ability to summon spirits to aid in healing, which often requires earning the spirit's trust.  While a certain amount of compassion may be beneficial to this line of work, it doesn't mean the person has to necessarily be good to do so.  That, and considering the amount of power they're channeling to summon the benevolent spirits, they're also more prone to attract demons by accident or trickery.  http://dragonage.wik...i/Spirit_Healer

An very interesting point. I suppose what I was really focusing is that you can only use these spirits for healing abilities. There's a level of caring implied about an individual who chooses such a path on a similar level to those who chose to pursue medicine. It's not as if there's a great deal of benefit to the healer themself - Anders lives in a sh*te heap and Wynne just pootles around in the tower. It's a vocation (or an aptitude) that implies a level of self-sacrifice and altruism.

[Amondra]

Evilnor wrote...

Amondra wrote...

mandamcmoo wrote...

Quite an angry/agitated night. I will just say that this ^^^ is something people tend to overlook about Anders. The guy you meet originally helps the lowest of the low, and asks for nothing for it. He takes Justice into himself because he wants to help. Intentions are important if we're going to start judging him personally for the outcome of his actions.

He isn't evil - I'm pretty sure a spirit healer has to be essentially good and caring of spirit for their magic to develop the way it does. Things go wrong, and he takes the wrong path, but that can happen to anyone.

*hugs* I love you forever for that comment! He is a good example of  "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" type thing.  

I completely agree with the "road to hell" argument.

Being a spirit healer, though, I don't think has to be an inherrently good specialization, just as blood magic doesn't necessarily mean you're a bad person.  People (as in players) tend to view them that way, though.  All that spirit healing requires is the ability to summon spirits to aid in healing, which often requires earning the spirit's trust.  While a certain amount of compassion may be beneficial to this line of work, it doesn't mean the person has to necessarily be good to do so.  That, and considering the amount of power they're channeling to summon the benevolent spirits, they're also more prone to attract demons by accident or trickery.  http://dragonage.wik...i/Spirit_Healer

I never saw that on the wiki! Thanks for sharing that, so going to use this for my fic, seriously it adds to how much of a secret badass Anders and Wynne are! I will love them forever!

[Amondra]

mandamcmoo wrote...

Evilnor wrote...

I completely agree with the "road to hell" argument.

Being a spirit healer, though, I don't think has to be an inherrently good specialization, just as blood magic doesn't necessarily mean you're a bad person.  People (as in players) tend to view them that way, though.  All that spirit healing requires is the ability to summon spirits to aid in healing, which often requires earning the spirit's trust.  While a certain amount of compassion may be beneficial to this line of work, it doesn't mean the person has to necessarily be good to do so.  That, and considering the amount of power they're channeling to summon the benevolent spirits, they're also more prone to attract demons by accident or trickery.  http://dragonage.wik...i/Spirit_Healer

An very interesting point. I suppose what I was really focusing is that you can only use these spirits for healing abilities. There's a level of caring implied about an individual who chooses such a path on a similar level to those who chose to pursue medicine. It's not as if there's a great deal of benefit to the healer themself - Anders lives in a sh*te heap and Wynne just pootles around in the tower. It's a vocation (or an aptitude) that implies a level of self-sacrifice and altruism.

I agree to go down that path there is an implied kindess and self sacrifice it looks like, knowing you are more likly to be possessed if you don't watch it.  Now I feel even more for the man, such conflictions and intensity.  It isn't a wonder I love his character so much, or why I love his romance.

I just read this and I was like 'Holy **** Anders!'

Aveline: Whatever it takes? No matter the cost?
Sebastian]: It feels like your're blaming me for some personal experience of yours.
Aveline: I was at Ostagar. Good people die when leaders "do whatever it takes."
Sebastian: Good people know the necessity.

Modifié par Amondra, 09 juin 2011 - 08:17 .

[andrastepreserveme]

Amondra wrote...

I just read this and I was like 'Holy **** Anders!'

Aveline[/b]: Whatever it takes? No matter the cost?Sebastian[/b]: It feels like your're blaming me for some personal experience of yours.Aveline[/b]: I was at Ostagar. Good people die when leaders "do whatever it takes."Sebastian[/b]: Good people know the necessity.[/list]

Woah! That is very very interesting!

EDIT: I think the Seb and Anders rivalry is way more compelling than the Fenris/Anders one. Mostly because there are places where they come SO CLOSE to being on the same side.

Modifié par mandamcmoo, 09 juin 2011 - 08:11 .

[andrastepreserveme]

elenilote wrote...

Anders is inherently unselfish, he took on Justice because he wanted to help and he thought it was the Right Thing To Do. he runs a free clinic, he heals everyone and anyone without question and all people remember is the bit at the end? And even then, Anders is genuinely sorry for the loss of life he inflicted, he does not prance around with a flag shouting 'yeay, I did it!'.

And my original point, in reply to @mandamcmoo, is that Anders was written as not being a black-and-white character. In my view he makes the best romance in the game and overall the best-written character as well.

YES - and I think he makes the best romance because he has so much other stuff going on in his life! One of the most heartbreaking moments for me was when, playing as a mage Hawke who has ALWAYS sided with the mages, he said: "How can you say you love me if you don't support my cause?"

All I could think was: "Your cause? What about our cause?"

The idea that he didn't trust Hawke, despite everything, really upset me and got under my skin.

(Not quite as much as Carver, but then, not much got under my skin in the same way Carver did, mostly because I have a younger brother who kind of resents me sometimes.)

[Amondra]

mandamcmoo wrote...

Amondra wrote...

I just read this and I was like 'Holy **** Anders!'

Aveline[/b]: Whatever it takes? No matter the cost?Sebastian[/b]: It feels like your're blaming me for some personal experience of yours.Aveline[/b]: I was at Ostagar. Good people die when leaders "do whatever it takes."Sebastian[/b]: Good people know the necessity.[/list]

Woah! That is very very interesting!

EDIT: I think the Seb and Anders rivalry is way more compelling than the Fenris/Anders one. Mostly because there are places where they come SO CLOSE to being on the same side.

Fenris and Anders rivalry is like listening to two little boys who are crushing on the same girl or brothers fighting to be faveorites.

Anders and Seb, are alot more a like, which is why I was like "he killed your cleric and now you want to be king and talk about justice...are you and Anders related?"

[elenilote]

mandamcmoo wrote...

elenilote wrote...

Anders is inherently unselfish, he took on Justice because he wanted to help and he thought it was the Right Thing To Do. he runs a free clinic, he heals everyone and anyone without question and all people remember is the bit at the end? And even then, Anders is genuinely sorry for the loss of life he inflicted, he does not prance around with a flag shouting 'yeay, I did it!'.

And my original point, in reply to @mandamcmoo, is that Anders was written as not being a black-and-white character. In my view he makes the best romance in the game and overall the best-written character as well.

YES - and I think he makes the best romance because he has so much other stuff going on in his life! One of the most heartbreaking moments for me was when, playing as a mage Hawke who has ALWAYS sided with the mages, he said: "How can you say you love me if you don't support my cause?"

All I could think was: "Your cause? What about our cause?"

The idea that he didn't trust Hawke, despite everything, really upset me and got under my skin.

(Not quite as much as Carver, but then, not much got under my skin in the same way Carver did, mostly because I have a younger brother who kind of resents me sometimes.)

Yes, I always play a mage siding with mages and this makes me tear up cause how can he not see that I am trying... :/

[Amondra]

elenilote wrote...

mandamcmoo wrote...

Amondra wrote...

*hugs* I love you forever for that comment! He is a good example of  "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" type thing.  

Exactly! Anders' position/choices are meant to be difficult. He enters grey areas and that is what makes him such a challenging companion.

I think it's a real shame that people try to whitewash him one way or the other. Hepler wanted him to be mixed up and confusing, and to my mind he most certainly is.

I don't usually post here and when I do, it has nothing at all to do with whatever is being debated. But I will pitch in now.
I strongly oppose the view of Anders as a terrorist "cause he blew up the Chantry and killed hundreds of innocents". 
Um no. He is not a terrorist. He is a guy who wants a better world, who is running out of options because the world around him is living in fear of change and are sitting in their stagnant little pond.

Anders is inherently unselfish, he took on Justice because he wanted to help and he thought it was the Right Thing To Do. he runs a free clinic, he heals everyone and anyone without question and all people remember is the bit at the end? And even then, Anders is genuinely sorry for the loss of life he inflicted, he does not prance around with a flag shouting 'yeay, I did it!'.

And my original point, in reply to @mandamcmoo, is that Anders was written as not being a black-and-white character. In my view he makes the best romance in the game and overall the best-written character as well.

I think by what the word means he is, what you need to remember is some might see him as such, but to others he is a freedom fighter.  The two things walk hand and hand. 

Me? I see him as Thedas's Punisher/Batman....yeah thats right way cooler right? *is such a nerd it's sad*

But the ending is what he will be remembered for is such a fate for most like him sadly.

Modifié par Amondra, 09 juin 2011 - 08:28 .