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[elenilote]

ElleMullineux wrote...

Ugh - I LOVE to hate Sebastian, he is so well written. And his insights into Anders are very close to the mark, which frustrates me even more. If you are looking for a purely romantic relationship Anders is "selfish" but to be fair the man gave you plenty of warning that you weren't going to get a traditional romance. He is dangerous, there is no way you can deny that. And he will always pick the cause above you, either that is something you admire him for, or its something that is a relationship deal-breaker.

Interesting how much we think alike (are you my long-lost triplet?)

Anders is very clear from the start about what you get if you romance him, thus you cannot say that you did not know what you got into. And as much as I in general am in different about Sebastian, his remarks about Anders and about responsibilities and so on are very very true and closer to the mark than he realises.

EDIT: TOP!!! This is a WIP of my commission from SweetCandyRain. Thought to put it here as it is relevant to our ongoing discussion. Hopefully it will be ready soon and I can post it in its coloured awesomeness.

Modifié par elenilote, 09 juin 2011 - 08:31 .

[andrastepreserveme]

elenilote wrote...

Yes, I always play a mage siding with mages and this makes me tear up cause how can he not see that I am trying... :/

It hurts, doesn't it? Even if Hawke's been totally loyal, never questioned mages even after All that Remains, he still thinks that  Hawke will kill him for what he chooses.

The other problem is that I can't help suspecting that he loves Hawke more on Rival, if in a very selfflagellating and doomed sort of way. He basically believes he's sacrificing Hawke's love along with his life, whereas on rival he tries to stop Justice because he loves him/her. Even though his actions destroy him, and it's basically implied that he will kill himself, he claims he will always love Hawke, but on friendmance he suggests that he isn't free to love or trust unreservedly as s/he deserves.

EDIT: On the Seb thing - I think the fact that Hepler wrote Seb too led to some very deliberate interweaving on her part - and I can't help thinking that, frustrating as he is, he's one of the most complicated characters in the game with, potentially, a very dark and interesting future.

Modifié par mandamcmoo, 09 juin 2011 - 08:34 .

[Amondra]

elenilote wrote...

ElleMullineux wrote...

Ugh - I LOVE to hate Sebastian, he is so well written. And his insights into Anders are very close to the mark, which frustrates me even more. If you are looking for a purely romantic relationship Anders is "selfish" but to be fair the man gave you plenty of warning that you weren't going to get a traditional romance. He is dangerous, there is no way you can deny that. And he will always pick the cause above you, either that is something you admire him for, or its something that is a relationship deal-breaker.

Interesting how much we think alike (are you my long-lost triplet?)

Anders is very clear from the start about what you get if you romance him, thus you cannot say that you did not know what you got into. And as much as I in general am in different about Sebastian, his remarks about Anders and about responsibilities and so on are very very true and closer to the mark than he realises.

EDIT: TOP!!! This is a WIP of my commission from SweetCandyRain. Thought to put it here as it is relevant to our ongoing discussion. Hopefully it will be ready soon and I can post it in its coloured awesomeness.

Aww how sweet and omg I realized part of another conversation got into my post on the last page "Now before you get upset" So sorry *feels like an ass* >_> seriously I need to pay more attention.

[elenilote]

mandamcmoo wrote...

elenilote wrote...

Yes, I always play a mage siding with mages and this makes me tear up cause how can he not see that I am trying... :/

It hurts, doesn't it? Even if Hawke's been totally loyal, never questioned mages even after All that Remains, he still thinks that  Hawke will kill him for what he chooses.

The other problem is that I can't help suspecting that he loves Hawke more on Rival, if in a very selfflagellating and doomed sort of way. He basically believes he's sacrificing Hawke's love along with his life, whereas on rival he tries to stop Justice because he loves him/her. Even though his actions destroy him, and it's basically implied that he will kill himself, he claims he will always love Hawke, but on friendmance he suggests that he isn't free to love or trust unreservedly as s/he deserves.

~nods. I have done both, rival and friendship - rival is slightly nicer yes, but either way he is the only completely thought-out romance in the game - I think. Fenrismance is just too odd, Isabela - well she is too obvious and Merrill, let's just not go there.

[andrastepreserveme]

elenilote wrote...

~nods. I have done both, rival and friendship - rival is slightly nicer yes, but either way he is the only completely thought-out romance in the game - I think. Fenrismance is just too odd, Isabela - well she is too obvious and Merrill, let's just not go there.

Too right. As cute as she is and all, every time I see her I think: Blood Mage = NO. I never take her anywhere (because she is the most delicate mageflower ever and dies at every opportunity) and I spend most of the time making Anders-style faces of disgust at her choices.

[elenilote]

mandamcmoo wrote...

elenilote wrote...

~nods. I have done both, rival and friendship - rival is slightly nicer yes, but either way he is the only completely thought-out romance in the game - I think. Fenrismance is just too odd, Isabela - well she is too obvious and Merrill, let's just not go there.

Too right. As cute as she is and all, every time I see her I think: Blood Mage = NO. I never take her anywhere (because she is the most delicate mageflower ever and dies at every opportunity) and I spend most of the time making Anders-style faces of disgust at her choices.

She is just all kinds of creepy. There is rarely much use for her and if there was, Anders needs to spend all this time and mana healing her! Somehow my mages never do any healing.. :3

[andrastepreserveme]

elenilote wrote...

She is just all kinds of creepy. There is rarely much use for her and if there was, Anders needs to spend all this time and mana healing her! Somehow my mages never do any healing.. :3

It's my theory that the best pathway to take with her is just never to do any of her quests. EVER. That way - no arguments over the Arulinholm and no dead Marethari. Ideal.

Anders would approve, because Marethari is awesome.

[elenilote]

mandamcmoo wrote...

elenilote wrote...

She is just all kinds of creepy. There is rarely much use for her and if there was, Anders needs to spend all this time and mana healing her! Somehow my mages never do any healing.. :3

It's my theory that the best pathway to take with her is just never to do any of her quests. EVER. That way - no arguments over the Arulinholm and no dead Marethari. Ideal.

Anders would approve, because Marethari is awesome.

~nod. I think I may have to do this on my next PT. And I accidentally nearly forgot about her the last time! I was busy going around Kirkwall preparing for the DR and all of a sudden was like '****, the amulet. And damn, Merrill.'

[andrastepreserveme]

ElleMullineux wrote...

(I can't remember the line about his cause... where is that from? Or as a rogue do I not get it?)

It happens if you repeatedly question him about his plans re the Chantry. He gets pretty nasty.

[elenilote]

ElleMullineux wrote...


(I can't remember the line about his cause... where is that from? Or as a rogue do I not get it?)

I think you only get that if you are a mage

[Amondra]

ElleMullineux wrote...

elenilote wrote...

mandamcmoo wrote...

elenilote wrote...

Yes, I always play a mage siding with mages and this makes me tear up cause how can he not see that I am trying... :/

It hurts, doesn't it? Even if Hawke's been totally loyal, never questioned mages even after All that Remains, he still thinks that  Hawke will kill him for what he chooses.

The other problem is that I can't help suspecting that he loves Hawke more on Rival, if in a very selfflagellating and doomed sort of way. He basically believes he's sacrificing Hawke's love along with his life, whereas on rival he tries to stop Justice because he loves him/her. Even though his actions destroy him, and it's basically implied that he will kill himself, he claims he will always love Hawke, but on friendmance he suggests that he isn't free to love or trust unreservedly as s/he deserves.

~nods. I have done both, rival and friendship - rival is slightly nicer yes, but either way he is the only completely thought-out romance in the game - I think. Fenrismance is just too odd, Isabela - well she is too obvious and Merrill, let's just not go there.

I've yet to do the rivalmance, but I can understand the pov from which Anders would appreciate a Hawke who is trying to help him fight Vengance - as he thinks its a mistake himself. Which makes it more bleak and horrible, thanks guys.

Yet I can't help but want to support him grow into Janders properly along the friendmanced path, because there is no turning back. The inability to change anything that has happened makes me want to forge forward and create something better with him/ for him. He's like a vanguard on the frontline of mage/spirit possession and as such it's an interesting dynamic.

(I can't remember the line about his cause... where is that from? Or as a rogue do I not get it?)

The way I look at it Anders died. There is this other Anders fellow in Kirkwall.  A kind man who does what he can for kinfolk. Has a good cause, a bit misguided, but over all means well and tries to do well by others he thinks are friends.  Wants to be loved, but forgotten for fear of what would happen if he loved.  He is tragic and beautiful.  He is unstable, and at times unstoppable.  He is like a fire. He can be warm and loving, or he can burn you.

He was willing to make the first move, damn his own freedom, by chaining himself to this cause of freedom.  spill the first blood.  He gave up what he sought for himself, so other can have it.

Because of that above. I helped him become Janders.  Is he Anders? No.  He is however this healer I met in Darktown, and I think is something so much more then a simple minded abomination /rant from to much hookah and mead.

By all that is good in this world I am a romantic...

Modifié par Amondra, 09 juin 2011 - 08:54 .

[elenilote]

Amondra wrote...


The way I look at it Anders died. There is this other Anders fellow in Kirkwall.  A kind man who does what he can for kinfolk. Has a good cause, a bit misguided, but over all means well and tries to do well by others he thinks are friends.  Wants to be loved, but forgotten for fear of what would happen if he loved.  He is tragic and beautiful.  He is unstable, and at times unstoppable.  He is like a fire. He can be warm and loving, or he can burn you.

He was willing to make the first move, damn his own freedom, by chaining himself to this cause of freedom.  spill the first blood.  He gave up what he sought for himself, so other can have it.

Because of that above. I helped him become Janders.  Is he Anders? No.  He is however this healer I met in Darktown, and I think is something so much more then a simple minded abomination /rant from to much hookah and mead.

By all that is good in this world I am a romantic...

I disagree with that. There are glimpses of the old Anders if you look closely enough. And people change, noone ever stays the same, and especially if you take on a Spirit of Justice inside yourself - you would expect to change. 
I do not think Anders died, he only changed. And for what it's worth, I think the new Anders (even with added Justice) is an improvement to the original, last time round he was a little too flippant, a little too shallow and in love with pretty things. 

[Amondra]

elenilote wrote...

Amondra wrote...


The way I look at it Anders died. There is this other Anders fellow in Kirkwall.  A kind man who does what he can for kinfolk. Has a good cause, a bit misguided, but over all means well and tries to do well by others he thinks are friends.  Wants to be loved, but forgotten for fear of what would happen if he loved.  He is tragic and beautiful.  He is unstable, and at times unstoppable.  He is like a fire. He can be warm and loving, or he can burn you.

He was willing to make the first move, damn his own freedom, by chaining himself to this cause of freedom.  spill the first blood.  He gave up what he sought for himself, so other can have it.

Because of that above. I helped him become Janders.  Is he Anders? No.  He is however this healer I met in Darktown, and I think is something so much more then a simple minded abomination /rant from to much hookah and mead.

By all that is good in this world I am a romantic...

I disagree with that. There are glimpses of the old Anders if you look closely enough. And people change, noone ever stays the same, and especially if you take on a Spirit of Justice inside yourself - you would expect to change. 
I do not think Anders died, he only changed. And for what it's worth, I think the new Anders (even with added Justice) is an improvement to the original, last time round he was a little too flippant, a little too shallow and in love with pretty things. 

Not enough to hold on.  He is a different man, and that is that.  I didn't say it was a bad thing.  But to often(not sayin you) people are going on with the "Hold onto himself"  the 'himself' is Justice included! it is everything you see through out the game, and that is what makes it grand *Points to the rest of my perivous statment past the bold*

[andrastepreserveme]

elenilote wrote...

I disagree with that. There are glimpses of the old Anders if you look closely enough. And people change, noone ever stays the same, and especially if you take on a Spirit of Justice inside yourself - you would expect to change. 
I do not think Anders died, he only changed. And for what it's worth, I think the new Anders (even with added Justice) is an improvement to the original, last time round he was a little too flippant, a little too shallow and in love with pretty things. 

There's a reason change a death have a close symbolic association, and not just in Tarot cards. We are all changing all the time, and our past versions of ourself are in a sense dead. Often by the time you receive something you wished for it is no longer quite what you want, especially if it is something you have wanted for a long time. The way Anders reacts after the Chantry either way suggests that he has been changed by the event and is now less than happy with the outcome.

[Jean]

mandamcmoo wrote...

(because she is the most delicate mageflower ever and dies at every opportunity)

if you spec her right she can be a monster.

[elenilote]

mandamcmoo wrote...

elenilote wrote...

I disagree with that. There are glimpses of the old Anders if you look closely enough. And people change, noone ever stays the same, and especially if you take on a Spirit of Justice inside yourself - you would expect to change. 
I do not think Anders died, he only changed. And for what it's worth, I think the new Anders (even with added Justice) is an improvement to the original, last time round he was a little too flippant, a little too shallow and in love with pretty things. 

There's a reason change a death have a close symbolic association, and not just in Tarot cards. We are all changing all the time, and our past versions of ourself are in a sense dead. Often by the time you receive something you wished for it is no longer quite what you want, especially if it is something you have wanted for a long time. The way Anders reacts after the Chantry either way suggests that he has been changed by the event and is now less than happy with the outcome.

It's a shame we do not get to see anything beyond the last battle. I like to imagine that Anders is profoundly changed by what he did and somehhow spends a long time trying to make amends.

[Amondra]

Batteries wrote...

mandamcmoo wrote...

(because she is the most delicate mageflower ever and dies at every opportunity)

if you spec her right she can be a monster.

Merrill is my control **** >_> Nothing surives with her stoping everything Anders nuking, my mage getting her heal on and Aveline being a boss.

[highcastle]

mandamcmoo wrote...

There's a reason change a death have a close symbolic association, and not just in Tarot cards. We are all changing all the time, and our past versions of ourself are in a sense dead. Often by the time you receive something you wished for it is no longer quite what you want, especially if it is something you have wanted for a long time. The way Anders reacts after the Chantry either way suggests that he has been changed by the event and is now less than happy with the outcome.

On the rivalry path, maybe. I think he's fairly content with the outcome on the friendship path. Aside from one comment where he's shocked by the rampant looting and rioting that occured right away, he seems at peace once you make it to the Gallows. But this interpretation hinges on whether or not you think Anders suspected jengaing the Chantry would launch a war or fix everything for mages all at once. I personally believe the former, and thus Anders achieved his goals and seems reasonably content.

It's hard to use the word "happy" in this context, admittedly. I think "satisfied" is probably more accurate.

[elenilote]

Amondra wrote...

Batteries wrote...

mandamcmoo wrote...

(because she is the most delicate mageflower ever and dies at every opportunity)

if you spec her right she can be a monster.

Merrill is my control **** >_> Nothing surives with her stoping everything Anders nuking, my mage getting her heal on and Aveline being a boss.

See my party is nearly always MageHawke, Anders, Fenris and Aveline. Anders is a kick-ass mage and a competent healer, my mage is specced to complement Anders's existing skills, but no healing. Between them Fenris and Aveline can pound anything to dust, the times I have been overwhelmed on Nightmare and Aveline is the last one standing and just kicks butt so hard!

[Jean]

this game i'm usually strolling about with a warrior Hawke, Anders, Isabela and switch between Merrill and Fenris

[Amondra]

Batteries wrote...

this game i'm usually strolling about with a warrior Hawke, Anders, Isabela and switch between Merrill and Fenris

my original run was Warrior Hawke with Anders, Merrill, and Varric, or Isabela

[ladyofpayne]

elenilote wrote...

ElleMullineux wrote...

Ugh - I LOVE to hate Sebastian, he is so well written. And his insights into Anders are very close to the mark, which frustrates me even more. If you are looking for a purely romantic relationship Anders is "selfish" but to be fair the man gave you plenty of warning that you weren't going to get a traditional romance. He is dangerous, there is no way you can deny that. And he will always pick the cause above you, either that is something you admire him for, or its something that is a relationship deal-breaker.

Interesting how much we think alike (are you my long-lost triplet?)

Anders is very clear from the start about what you get if you romance him, thus you cannot say that you did not know what you got into. And as much as I in general am in different about Sebastian, his remarks about Anders and about responsibilities and so on are very very true and closer to the mark than he realises.

EDIT: TOP!!! This is a WIP of my commission from SweetCandyRain. Thought to put it here as it is relevant to our ongoing discussion. Hopefully it will be ready soon and I can post it in its coloured awesomeness.

Please tell me when will be color version.

[elenilote]

ladyofpayne wrote...

elenilote wrote...

ElleMullineux wrote...

Ugh - I LOVE to hate Sebastian, he is so well written. And his insights into Anders are very close to the mark, which frustrates me even more. If you are looking for a purely romantic relationship Anders is "selfish" but to be fair the man gave you plenty of warning that you weren't going to get a traditional romance. He is dangerous, there is no way you can deny that. And he will always pick the cause above you, either that is something you admire him for, or its something that is a relationship deal-breaker.

Interesting how much we think alike (are you my long-lost triplet?)

Anders is very clear from the start about what you get if you romance him, thus you cannot say that you did not know what you got into. And as much as I in general am in different about Sebastian, his remarks about Anders and about responsibilities and so on are very very true and closer to the mark than he realises.

EDIT: TOP!!! This is a WIP of my commission from SweetCandyRain. Thought to put it here as it is relevant to our ongoing discussion. Hopefully it will be ready soon and I can post it in its coloured awesomeness.

Please tell me when will be color version.

Soon, but as Paulina is injured at the moment and is struggling to move, let alone draw - I don't know. Promise I will update as soon as I know.